322. Talk Back: Why Arguing With Yourself Can Help You Flourish

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Matt Abrahams: Arguing with yourself
may be the best way to flourish.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I'm excited to
speak with Martin Seligman.

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Marty is a world-renowned
psychologist and professor at

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the University of Pennsylvania.

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He's the director of the
Positive Psychology Center.

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His groundbreaking research has
fundamentally reshaped how science

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understands human wellbeing.

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He has authored more than 30 books,
including Flourish, Authentic

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Happiness, and his latest, Agency: The
Psychological History of Human Progress.

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Well, welcome, Martin.

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I first learned of your work
when I was an undergraduate.

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The work you did in learned helplessness
was really fascinating and actually helped

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me want to study more in psychology.

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Thank you, and thank you for being here.

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Martin Seligman: I'm
pleased to be here, Matt.

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I have to confess I'm intimidated
by the title of your endeavor.

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I used to be fast, and now I'm slow,
and I used to be smart, and now the

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best I can do is be contemplative.

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Matt Abrahams: Oh, well, I appreciate
that, and we will have a lovely

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conversation that goes deep and
contemplates lots of important things.

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Shall we get started?

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Martin Seligman: Okay.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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So it is rare to get the
opportunity to speak with somebody

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who started an entire field.

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You started the field of
wellness and wellbeing and

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happiness research in psychology.

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We've had several guests on the
show who've talked about things

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in this field, Sonja Lyubomirsky,
Laurie Santos, Arthur Brooks, and

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I'd love to get your take on it.

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You, across the studying you do, have
studied something called flourishing.

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Can you share with us a bit
about what flourishing is and

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what we can do to achieve it?

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Martin Seligman: Well, my interest in
flourishing started because it was a

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field that psychology wouldn't touch,
the question of how to be happy.

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And my experience, and probably yours,
Matt, when you lie in bed at night,

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you're not thinking about how to
go from minus eight to minus three.

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You're thinking about how to go from
plus three to plus eight in life.

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Well, there was no psychology of
that, and that was my motive for

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founding, when I was president of the
American Psychological Association,

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the field of positive psychology,
which is about flourishing.

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And for me, flourishing has five elements.

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The acronym is PERMA.

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P is positive emotion,
subjective well-being.

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E is engagement, how absorbed you
are right now in our conversation.

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R is relationships, good relationships.

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M is one sense of meaning and mattering.

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And A is accomplishment and achievement.

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So for me, flourishing relies
on five pillars I call PERMA.

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Matt Abrahams: It's very clear that each
of those can help us all feel better.

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In your work and in your research,
do all five need to be in place

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for someone to feel that sense
of wellbeing and flourishing?

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Or is it just having one or
two areas where you really feel

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accomplished or passionate?

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Is that enough?

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Martin Seligman: Not at all.

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It's like a dashboard on an airplane.

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So there are lots of dials on an
airplane, but if you wanna get

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there as cheaply as possible, it's
the central dial that matters.

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If you wanna get there as comfortably as
possible, it's the radar that matters.

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Similarly with PERMA, I'm a high
meaning and accomplishment person.

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Those are the two of the five
that really matter for me.

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So for me, flourishing is knowing about
the techniques of more meaning in my life

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and the techniques of more accomplishment.

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It's secondary to me, the hedonics, how
much joy I feel and how engaged I am.

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Like the dashboard on an airplane,
it depends on what you care about.

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Matt Abrahams: Ah, so each of us
can reflect what's most important.

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So as I look at PERMA, I feel that
relationships and meaning are what's

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most important in my life, and I can
try to optimize for those as almost

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a roadmap for how we can find our way
to deeper fulfillment and flourishing

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simply by thinking through these five
variables and what's important for

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us, and then how to optimize for them.

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I appreciate that, and challenge
everybody listening to think about

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where you fall on passion, enjoyment,
relationship, meaning, and accomplishment.

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Some of your work talks about the
internal conversations we have

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with ourselves, the monologue, that
self-tape we have playing in our head.

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How does this shape our worldview?

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And if we're not happy with that chatter,
are there things we can do to change it?

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Martin Seligman: Well, I think the most
important revolution in psychology in my

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lifetime was the cognitive revolution.

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Before that came along, people
believed that emotion was primary,

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and what you said to yourself, what
you thought, was a product of emotion.

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We now know at least that what
you think very often determines

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your emotion and your action.

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What you think is not gospel.

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It's often whispered to you by
someone whose mission in life

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was to make you miserable.

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So it's very important to be on top
of your internal dialogue, and then if

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you're finding it makes you depressed and
anxious, to argue against it rationally.

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So a lot of what one does in flourishing
and positive psychology, which came

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right out of cognitive therapy, was
to become very sensitive to what

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we're saying to ourselves and learn
how to argue against it when it was

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leading you places you didn't wanna go.

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Matt Abrahams: This idea of listening to
that chatter can be hard for many of us.

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Are there techniques that you
know of or perhaps use yourself

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that give us insight to it?

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I mean, the voice in my head, I'm
just so used to hearing, I don't

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really sit and reflect on it.

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How can I best dispassionately
learn about it?

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Martin Seligman: As a pessimist and
a depressive, I've spent a lifetime

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inventing these techniques and using them.

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And on the pessimistic
depressive side, the voices are

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always going to occur to you.

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They're not eliminated.

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What happens is you can counter them.

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And so for example, Matt, before
I came on the show with you, I was

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quite anxious about it, and I was
thinking, "Good heavens, I'm in my 80s.

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Can I really keep up with
Matt and talk fast and smart?

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And gee, I'm too old for this." And
when we came on together, indeed I

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was thinking something like that.

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But as the listener doesn't know,
we had three technical difficulties.

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During the time you and I made
friends, I argued against that.

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Here I'm dealing with one of the experts
on impromptu speech, and I'm doing great.

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And so I essentially argued against,
"I just can't be fast and smart."

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So I've become an expert both at
hearing what I say to myself, but at

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realistically marshaling evidence against
depressive and pessimistic thoughts.

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Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that.

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Thank you for enduring the technical
difficulties, and I actually

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have enjoyed our conversation
in between those very much.

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And what I really like about what
you have said is that the words

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that we say to ourselves are merely
arguments that can be countered, and

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they can be countered with evidence.

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So in a lot of my coaching work and some
of my teaching work, there are a lot of

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people who experience what I think would
generally be defined as imposter syndrome.

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The stories they're telling themselves
is they don't deserve this, or

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they're not up to the challenge.

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And what I hear you saying is you can
use evidence to counter that position.

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You can say, "Look, you were
invited to give this talk. You were

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promoted to this position." This is
all evidence that runs counter to

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that story you're telling yourself.

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And I can see how that would lead to
more positive feeling, or at least

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a reduction of the negative feeling.

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Do I have that right?

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Martin Seligman: The two things to
know about the imposter syndrome

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are first, those voices that are
telling you you're an imposter

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have nothing to do with reality.

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They have to do with deep
worries, with childhood, what

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your parents used to say to you.

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That's part one.

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They're not realistic, so you should
treat them as not realistic, and then

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marshal all the evidence about why
you got here and what your credentials

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were, and that it's not an accident that
you're sitting in this position now.

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So the imposter syndrome can be
dealt well with those two steps.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely,
and thank you for that.

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And I think all of us can talk
back to some of that chatter

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that we have in our head.

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A lot of what you have shared with
us so far in your work is about

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becoming aware of these patterns,
habits, just inclinations we have.

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With the realization of the future
looms large in how we feel and what

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we do, what are some things we can do
to maximize wellness, relationships,

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communication with that knowledge?

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Martin Seligman: From the point of
view of happiness, I think the notion

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of agency becomes very important.

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And indeed, agency is
what my new book is about.

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It's the culmination of 60 years
of work, and I think it's the most

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informative tool we have both about
our futures and the human future.

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Matt Abrahams: Can you define
what you mean by agency?

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I found your book fascinating.

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And what are some of the key components
that make up our sense of agency?

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Martin Seligman: I think there are three.

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The first is efficacy, and that's to
what extent do you believe that you can

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achieve your goals in the here and now?

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The second is optimism.

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To what extent do you believe you're
gonna be able to achieve those goals

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in the future and far into the future?

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And the third is imagination, and
that is the range of goals that

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you can envision about your future.

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So a complete sense of efficacy, of agency
as efficacy, optimism, and imagination.

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Matt Abrahams: You helped found
the field of positive psychology.

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You are the founder of that field.

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I know from talking to people and having
seen it develop that there were some

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naysayers, there was some resistance.

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What advice do you have for people
who are initiating new ideas, new

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approaches for helping be persuasive
and influential to at least get people

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to consider a different approach?

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Any insights from the experience you went
through getting to where you are today?

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Martin Seligman: Well, I think it's
important to put yourself in the

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shoes of your critics, to anticipate
what's wrong, to become comfortable

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with their arguments, and to make
your best arguments against it.

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And I, I'm just remembering the late
Barbara Ehrenreich, who was one of

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the critics of positive psychology.

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She wrote a book called Bright-sided,
which compared me to The Wizard of Oz.

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And in the last few months of her life, we
got into a dialogue together in which she

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said something like, "Well, you probably
have a very dim view of me, Marty, and

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you probably think my prospects are not
very good because I'm not a promo person."

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And I said, "Well, not at all, Barb.

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You're so engaged in these issues of
social justice that your engagement

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is enormous, and that is a health and
optimism and life-preserving force."

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And I remember Barbara writing me
shortly before her death, telling me how

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meaningful that was in the face of this
merciless criticism that she had given me.

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So owning and befriending
your critics is important.

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Matt Abrahams: That reflection on what's
important to them and where they're

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coming from can allow you to have a
much more meaningful conversation.

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Well, Marty, this has been
a phenomenal conversation.

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Thank you so much.

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As you well know, we end with three
questions, one I will make up for you

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and two that I've been asking everybody.

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And we've spent a lot of time talking
about the internal communication we have.

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I'm curious to understand your
perspective on the external communication.

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How do we maximize our communication
to help ourselves and help others?

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Martin Seligman: Well, something happened
20 years ago which turned this field

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around for me, and that was let's think
about how people celebrate together

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rather than how they fight together.

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So the question is not how you go wrong,
but what do you say to your spouse

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or your best friend when they come to
you with a victory, with a triumph?

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And that's something that
people have not worked on.

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If you can imagine a two by two
destructive, constructive, active,

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and passive, the only one that
really works is active constructive.

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So let me just give
you an example of that.

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My wife Mandy is a amateur
black and white photographer.

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And a few years ago, she came downstairs
and said to me, "Marty, the editor

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of Black and White Magazine just
called me, and I won the international

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award for the best black and white
photograph." Okay, what should I say

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to Mandy when she comes down with that?

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Well, what I would have said until
I had read the revolutionary work

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on communication and marriage was,
"Congratulations, dear. You deserve

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it. You're a great photographer." Well,
that's called passive-constructive,

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and it has no effect.

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It's wallpaper.

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But I knew the literature
on active-constructive.

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And so here's what I said.

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First, I had to show Mandy that I
really knew what she was talking about.

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So I said, "Was it the black and white
picture of the swan that you took in

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Blenheim last summer that won it?" And
she said, "Yes, it was, in fact." I

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said, "Well, you know, Mandy, that's
the most beautiful black and white

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picture of an animal I've ever seen."
So that was part one, showing that you

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really knew what the triumph was about.

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But here comes the part that's important
and we neglect out of haste often,

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and that's to put Mandy in touch
with this great victory she just had.

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So I said, "Mandy, tell me verbatim, what
did the editor of Black and White say?"

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And so she went through it.

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I said, "Well, then, what do you think
it is about your photography that could

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have snatched the prizes away from The New
York Times Pulitzer Prize winner?" And she

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said, "I think I'm very good with gray,
and I do a lot with nuances." And then

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I said, "Okay, well, how can you teach
kids this technique in their drawing and

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photography?" And so we talked about that.

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Then I said, "Mandy, let's go to
the refrigerator and open that

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bottle of Dom Perignon that's
been sitting there for a decade."

00:16:50.892 --> 00:16:53.951
Matt Abrahams: That idea of
being constructive and engaged in

00:16:53.961 --> 00:16:58.262
dialogue around that, really, really
insightful because most people

00:16:58.262 --> 00:17:00.281
just act in a very heuristic way.

00:17:00.291 --> 00:17:03.742
"Hey, you won an award.
Congratulations." This requires

00:17:03.821 --> 00:17:05.681
a bit more thought and presence.

00:17:05.912 --> 00:17:07.531
Martin Seligman: It takes a lot of work.

00:17:07.991 --> 00:17:13.051
And the reason we say things like, "What's
for dinner?" or, "Congratulations,"

00:17:13.401 --> 00:17:17.851
is we, we're not used to doing that
work, and it doesn't come naturally.

00:17:17.881 --> 00:17:21.451
But the other person knows that,
and that's why it's wallpaper.

00:17:21.911 --> 00:17:28.762
So active-constructive communication
is a difficult technique, and it takes

00:17:28.802 --> 00:17:31.452
practice, and we can get better at it.

00:17:31.991 --> 00:17:34.991
Matt Abrahams: The rewards for
doing that are a deepening of the

00:17:34.991 --> 00:17:37.021
relationship, and I appreciate that.

00:17:37.656 --> 00:17:41.976
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:17:42.696 --> 00:17:45.846
Martin Seligman: I'm thinking Ludwig
Wittgenstein, actually, although

00:17:45.846 --> 00:17:47.866
I've never heard him in speech.

00:17:48.446 --> 00:17:53.936
But I've read some of the impromptu
things that he had to say, and the one

00:17:53.955 --> 00:17:58.715
that's on my mind right now, because
I've been thinking about the question

00:17:58.716 --> 00:18:02.966
of what is the meaning of life, and
it is not a good question at all.

00:18:03.695 --> 00:18:11.866
Wittgenstein said, impromptu, I'm told,
"I don't know why we're here, but I'm

00:18:11.896 --> 00:18:15.065
pretty sure it's not to be happy."

00:18:17.265 --> 00:18:19.185
Matt Abrahams: I can see why
somebody who founded positive

00:18:19.186 --> 00:18:22.625
psychology would be enamored with
that or, or curious about it.

00:18:22.935 --> 00:18:26.515
I have to ask, you said that the
meaning of life is a bad question.

00:18:26.515 --> 00:18:27.455
What is the meaning of life?

00:18:27.885 --> 00:18:30.575
Martin Seligman: Yeah, and the
reason I think it's bad is that

00:18:30.735 --> 00:18:34.305
meaningless wears the pants here.

00:18:34.925 --> 00:18:41.076
And so I think it's a yearning in which
what we understand is meaningless and

00:18:41.135 --> 00:18:48.285
empty, and that meaning means something
like not empty and not meaningless.

00:18:48.735 --> 00:18:53.046
So that's kind of where I am about
why it's not a good question.

00:18:53.605 --> 00:18:54.455
Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that.

00:18:54.885 --> 00:18:56.015
Final question for you.

00:18:56.015 --> 00:19:01.465
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:19:02.245 --> 00:19:04.916
Martin Seligman: Well, Matt, that's
really difficult because I've

00:19:04.925 --> 00:19:11.875
never prepared for speeches, and
I've always wanted spontaneity.

00:19:12.235 --> 00:19:19.885
Uh, so for me, I don't go
through any conscious ingredient.

00:19:20.745 --> 00:19:24.826
And the older I've gotten, the
more I've just hoped that the

00:19:24.835 --> 00:19:27.825
words would come, and they have.

00:19:28.436 --> 00:19:30.955
Matt Abrahams: I think one of the key
ingredients that you deploy, you just

00:19:30.955 --> 00:19:35.305
mentioned, is spontaneity, and you've
certainly talked about this notion

00:19:35.305 --> 00:19:40.475
of empathy or perspective taking as
well, and then being good at arguing

00:19:40.506 --> 00:19:43.145
or putting forth rational explanations.

00:19:43.375 --> 00:19:45.955
So I think you do have some
principles that you follow.

00:19:45.955 --> 00:19:47.875
You might just not see
them in the forefront.

00:19:48.506 --> 00:19:50.796
This has been a fantastic conversation.

00:19:50.815 --> 00:19:53.766
It's a bit of a fanboy
moment for me to meet you.

00:19:53.775 --> 00:19:58.315
Your work has always been meaningful
to me, and the work that you have done

00:19:58.355 --> 00:20:03.215
really matters, and this idea of agency
and how we can all develop agency in

00:20:03.215 --> 00:20:08.405
ourselves and others, really, really
significant to well-being in general.

00:20:08.465 --> 00:20:11.215
Marty, thank you for your time, and
thank you for all the work you have done.

00:20:11.705 --> 00:20:13.655
Martin Seligman: Thank you
for the opportunity not to

00:20:13.675 --> 00:20:16.265
be fast and not to be smart.

00:20:17.738 --> 00:20:20.008
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:20:20.008 --> 00:20:21.538
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:20:21.908 --> 00:20:23.948
Speaking with Marty was a true pleasure.

00:20:24.248 --> 00:20:28.228
Among the many ideas he shared, the one
that stands out most to me is that we can

00:20:28.228 --> 00:20:33.297
change our negative self-talk and feel
better by providing logical arguments

00:20:33.298 --> 00:20:35.827
that counter our negative narratives.

00:20:36.287 --> 00:20:39.158
To learn more about happiness and
wellbeing, please listen to our

00:20:39.158 --> 00:20:44.238
special miniseries on the topic,
including episodes 179 through 182.

00:20:44.707 --> 00:20:47.617
You'll hear from guests like
Laurie Santos and Arthur Brooks.

00:20:48.037 --> 00:20:51.668
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex

00:20:51.668 --> 00:20:53.767
McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:20:54.038 --> 00:20:58.507
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:20:58.968 --> 00:21:02.227
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:21:02.487 --> 00:21:04.557
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:21:04.737 --> 00:21:08.047
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