310. A Matter of Meaning: What Other People Teach You About Your Communication

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: Sincerity, connection,
and empathy define a meaningful life.

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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I'm excited to share a
live conversation I had with our

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returning guest, our first four-time
guest, GSB professor Brian Lowery.

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As part of this year's Stanford LEAD
Me2We, Brian and I sat down to discuss

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what makes for a meaningful life and
how we operationalize that through our

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feedback to and communication with others.

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Enjoy our conversation.

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Brian, thanks for being here.

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It's exciting to chat with you.

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Brian and I have had a number of
conversations on the show and otherwise,

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and I remember a couple years ago when we
had our conversation, people got really,

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really excited about some of your research
about motivation, meaning, purpose.

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Can you remind us the difference from the
way you look at meaning versus purpose?

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Brian Lowery: Yeah, so purpose is
what you do in the morning, right?

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So purpose is like, "I have to do
this, I have to do that," or, "I'm

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trying to achieve this." And meaning
is something that, I think of it

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as like extends you in time, right?

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So it's not just what you
do at any given moment.

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One way to think of it is
like how you'd be remembered.

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Why is what you're doing matters?

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So that's how people talk about meaning.

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It's about not just what you
do, but why does it matter?

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And also mattering is
usually about other people.

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So purpose is often for you, what gets
you up in the morning, but meaning

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almost always involves other people.

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So that's kind of the difference.

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Matt Abrahams: So individual
versus connecting to others.

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Do you have advice and guidance on
how we can better find our purpose?

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Brian Lowery: Find our purpose.

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I think purpose is whatever.

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You can just decide what your purpose is.

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There's no magic in purpose.

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I think that people when they say purpose,
sometimes what they mean is meaning.

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Purpose is easy.

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I think the idea of like
find your passion, I don't

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personally subscribe to that.

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I'm like, make what you do your
passion, as opposed to go out and

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try to figure out what it is, 'cause
now you're searching and who knows.

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I think you decide what it is
you want to do and then commit

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yourself to doing that thing.

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That, that thing, that is
how you find your purpose.

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Matt Abrahams: So it's almost observing
what's going on in your life and

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what's there and then that becomes it.

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So how do you find meaning?

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Brian Lowery: I think meaning is about who
do you want to serve other than yourself.

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And that can be a number of
people in different ways.

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That could be your kids, that could
be your students, that could be future

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generations of users of your product.

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It could be all sorts of people, but
it has to be serving someone other than

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yourself, connecting to someone other
than yourself, providing something outside

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of yourself that will extend beyond you.

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So often the way people talk about
mattering and meaning is that it has

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to reverberate beyond your presence.

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So it can't just be, "I'm here with
you, I did this thing." It has to

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be, "I'm here with you doing this
thing, and when I leave, what I

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did will continue to influence you.

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How I've touched you will continue
to influence you, and then you

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will influence other people.

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And so now I've indirectly
influenced those people." That

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is where meaning comes from.

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Matt Abrahams: So it's
almost like a ripple effect.

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Brian Lowery: It's a ripple effect.

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And I think meaning is about being
mindful of the effect you have on other

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people, and being purposeful about
the effect you have on other people.

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Matt Abrahams: Okay, so the purpose
in many ways drives the meaning.

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Brian Lowery: Yeah.

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In the sense of, like, anything
you do can affect other people.

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You just choose to do something, right?

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You just choose, "I'm gonna try to
make this best place to work. I'm

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gonna choose to make this meeting
or this vacation," or whatever.

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But if you're doing it in service
of other people and understand that

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it's affecting those people, it will
change the way you do it, and it

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will make it more meaningful for you.

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When you're thinking about how what
you're doing touches and influences

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other people, that will give you an
experience of meaningfulness in your life.

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Being mindful other people are
being influenced by your behaviors

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changes how you understand yourself.

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Matt Abrahams: You're adding at least
one layer, if not more, on this notion

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of empathy that we were talking about.

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It's this idea of my impact
on you and what it means.

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When I read your book, and we talked
about it before on the show, one

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thing that I'm still trying to wrap
my mind around is this notion of how

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we define ourselves through others.

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Can you walk us through that?

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And if nothing else, this is a tutorial
for me 'cause I'm still trying to grasp

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this, but can you help me understand?

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Brian Lowery: So the way I would
say it is, without others, you

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would have no idea who you were.

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So in this conversation already, you've
said, like, you're, or I asked you about

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it, but you're, you're, you have a wife.

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Matt Abrahams: And I have two kids.

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Brian Lowery: You have kids.

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Matt Abrahams: Yes, I do.

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Brian Lowery: You have two kids.

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All those things come together and
tell you something about who you are.

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Like, you're a dad, you're a husband,
you're a podcaster, you're an interviewer.

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And you can add things to that, and
those collectively are who you are.

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All of the parts, those plus any
others you can come up with that

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you think of as who you are, depend
on relationships with other people.

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Those ideas of who you are and your
own internal ideas of who you are

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would not exist absent those people.

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Like, you can't be a
husband without a wife.

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You cannot be a parent without kids.

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You cannot be a podcaster
without an audience.

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So without other people, the things that
you use to define yourself don't exist.

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Matt Abrahams: So in connection to
others, we help define ourselves.

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Many folks sitting in this room
are leaders, managers, and they

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have others that work for them.

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How do we help create the selves of those
people who work with us or work for us?

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I mean, there are things we can do
to help them define themselves and

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their roles in our organizations.

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Talk to me about that.

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Brian Lowery: I think that we define
people, interact with them all the time in

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ways that we don't take seriously because
in some cultures, at least in the States

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and other places, not just the States,
but certainly in the States, there's a

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sense of like, 'I exist as an island.

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I'm the most important thing, and then
all I care about is did I affect you

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and did you affect me?' But there's
a barrier that cannot be crossed.

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I just think that's fundamentally wrong.

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That is just not how things
actually work socially.

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And so when we're interacting, we
are co-constructing each other.

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Part of that is really
philosophical and abstract.

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Like, if you're a leader, you're
telling people what they have

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to do when they go to work.

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You're telling people what time
they have to show up, that you're

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making them feel happy to be
there or hate being there, right?

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Those things are part of how
they think about themselves.

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When they go home, they're talking about
you and the workplace in particular

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ways and themselves as a part of that.

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Like, I hate my job.

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I'm the kind of person that hates my job.

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I love my job.

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I'm the kind of person who loves my job.

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You know, these people at work,
they're annoying to me, or I miss

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them, or whatever it is, but all
those things are changing how you see

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yourself, and they're changing how
you show up and behave at work, too.

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If you're a manager, you are
constructing the environment

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in which people are working.

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The environment in which people
work, the environment which

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people live, in all sorts of ways
directly affects how they behave.

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And so when you see someone behaving in
a way that you like or don't like, you

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should first ask yourself, if you're
a leader in that environment, what

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am I doing that produces that, right?

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And this gets away from this idea
of like they are who they are and

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they're just doing what they do, and
you start to think of like how am I

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participating in producing this behavior?

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Now, people will be like,
"But that's not true.

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They're just a terrible
human being, and they're just

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lazy." I'm like, "That's fine.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, there are some lazy people." But the
thing is, one, I'm right. Two, even if I'm

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wrong, which I'm not, but even if I were
wrong, it is more rational to ask yourself

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as a leader, what can I do to change the
situation than to say, "I have no agency.

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I can't do anything 'cause they are
who they are." Given those two, I

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think you would choose to say like,
"Where am I in this?" And that

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agency requires responsibility.

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And what the responsibility I'm
talking about here is understanding

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that how you behave as a leader
is shaping how the people that

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work for you show up and behave.

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Matt Abrahams: And I think that
puts a lot of responsibility on

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leaders to really reflect on that.

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A lot of leaders just
optimize for output, right?

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And they don't really think about what
they're doing that can lead to that.

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Brian Lowery: People don't
understand that who they are is

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shaping who their employees are.

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So it's not just what you tell them to do.

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It's who you are, how are you showing up?

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And so people often just focus on
what's outside of them, like how are

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they behaving, how do I alter their
behavior, without looking at the self.

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If you change how you show up, you will
change how people around you show up.

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And so in the context of work,
people might not see it that way.

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But if you think about families,
people understand this implicitly.

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If you're, like, in a terrible mood all
the time or you're unhappy with life or

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something like that, for sure that is
gonna affect your wife and your kids.

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Like, no one has to explain that to you.

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But somehow you go to work,
it's as if, like, people all

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have their responsibilities.

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Who I am doesn't matter.

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I'm just telling them what to
do, you do what you're told.

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And, like, my person, how I
show up, has no influence.

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That just cannot be true.

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Matt Abrahams: That analogy
really does help cement the idea.

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We think of that with our
family and friends very easily,

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but we don't see it at work.

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Is there advice or best practices you have
for people in leadership roles to help

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maximize the success and the wellbeing
of the people that work with them?

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What can we do to help them
see themselves that way?

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Brian Lowery: Doing work on
self-awareness actually has notable

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effects on how your employees respond
to you and their experience of work.

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So there's evidence, there's
research on this, right?

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So the closer that the way your employees
see you is the way you see yourself,

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the safer and the more efficient
your employees are, as an example.

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So one is being willing to examine
the self and being willing to respond

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to the environment in such a way
that allows for people to know you

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in a way that allows them to feel
a degree of psychological safety.

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And psychological safety here is, at
best, predictability, like understand

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you, and you think I understand you.

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That changes the way we work together.

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And that's not about you're nice.

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It's not about doing
what I want you to do.

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It's just like I'm working
for you, I understand you.

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You agree with that understanding,
now we can work in a different way

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than if I can't, I don't really
know what's going on with you.

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I can't figure out
what's going on with you.

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I hear what you're telling me to
do, but I don't understand you.

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That creates a distance and some
degree of unsafety, which undermines

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the work relationship and undermines
the quality of the work of people.

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So self-awareness, also being willing to
examine and accept the perspective of the

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other people, even if it doesn't match
yours, is legitimate and reasonable.

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So I might not agree with how you see
things, but I should take your experience

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seriously, whether I agree with it or not.

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And again, the agreement is not the issue,
but, like, truly trying to understand,

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engaging with how you see the world.

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Also, that there's clear evidence that
that has positive effects because often

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people care about being respected.

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So sometimes people worry about or think
that people only care about what they get.

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So of course, people care about that,
but they also care about did you hear me?

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Do you care that I want this thing?

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Even if you don't give it to
me, do you even respect me?

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And if you demonstrate that to people,
like you're asking questions, you

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really care about the answer they
give, even if you don't agree, you're

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trying to understand, and they see
that as a sincere, the way they'll

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respond to that and the kind of leeway
they will give you is surprising.

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And so that's another thing I would tell
people, like, one, understand yourself.

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Be sensitive to how other people
see you so that you can create a

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match between how you see yourself
and how other people see you.

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There's positive gain there.

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Two, and as a part of that, taking
seriously the perspective of other people.

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You don't have to agree with them,
but taking it seriously changes

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their experience of the situation.

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Those things together have
huge positive benefits.

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Matt Abrahams: So self-awareness
as well as acknowledging seriously

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the other person's perspective.

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It strikes me that that requires a
level of confidence and vulnerability,

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though, to do that, to show up as
your true self and to look internal.

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Brian Lowery: Just to be clear,
I have no idea what a true self

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is, but here's what I know.

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You show up in a particular way.

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Whether or not that's your true self
or not, I don't know I would worry

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more about sincerity than truth.

00:12:13.722 --> 00:12:17.181
The goal is not to, like, be who
you are all the time with everyone.

00:12:17.181 --> 00:12:19.012
like, That's just not
how human beings operate.

00:12:19.521 --> 00:12:22.561
And so instead of worrying
about the true self, I think you

00:12:22.561 --> 00:12:23.842
should worry about sincerity.

00:12:23.842 --> 00:12:27.151
Am I being as honest as I can right now?

00:12:27.261 --> 00:12:28.461
Matt Abrahams: With
myself and with others.

00:12:28.482 --> 00:12:29.041
Brian Lowery: Yes.

00:12:29.232 --> 00:12:32.451
And that is a different thing than saying,
"Am I being my true self?" Sometimes

00:12:32.452 --> 00:12:34.092
being your true self might be an asshole.

00:12:34.241 --> 00:12:35.871
Like, you're in a bad mood,
you're being an asshole.

00:12:35.872 --> 00:12:36.411
That's fine.

00:12:36.421 --> 00:12:37.561
Don't be that true self.

00:12:37.561 --> 00:12:38.241
It's okay.

00:12:38.362 --> 00:12:42.351
But when you engage with people,
be sincere, and that's different

00:12:42.351 --> 00:12:45.272
than, like, 'cause people have this
idea of, like, "If it's in my head,

00:12:45.272 --> 00:12:46.501
I gotta say it." No, you don't.

00:12:46.581 --> 00:12:46.951
No.

00:12:47.221 --> 00:12:47.831
Please don't.

00:12:47.841 --> 00:12:49.112
Be, don't be your true self with me.

00:12:49.351 --> 00:12:53.531
But be sincere, and I think that that's
what people are expecting, sincerity.

00:12:53.871 --> 00:12:56.031
Matt Abrahams: It does require
you to really think about and know

00:12:56.041 --> 00:12:58.651
what's important to you and to
have your own values understood.

00:12:59.061 --> 00:13:02.271
I wanna talk about the crucible
of feedback because it strikes me

00:13:02.291 --> 00:13:05.071
that, you know, many leaders have to
give feedback, but this could be a

00:13:05.071 --> 00:13:07.961
friction point or some tension with
some of the issues you're talking.

00:13:08.091 --> 00:13:11.902
'Cause when I give you feedback, I'm
confronting your perceptions of yourself.

00:13:12.162 --> 00:13:14.321
How does feedback work
well in this paradigm?

00:13:14.681 --> 00:13:16.522
Brian Lowery: I think it
should be, again, sincere.

00:13:16.522 --> 00:13:19.721
And if you understand the other person's
perspective of themselves, I think the

00:13:19.721 --> 00:13:23.831
fear is that it's hard to give hard
feedback, it's hard to get hard feedback,

00:13:23.831 --> 00:13:25.381
or fear that that's what you're gonna get.

00:13:25.651 --> 00:13:29.591
I think once you create a relationship
where there's sincerity, you can

00:13:29.602 --> 00:13:34.011
give feedback in such a way where
you're asking people to understand

00:13:34.011 --> 00:13:36.222
how you experience what is happening.

00:13:36.591 --> 00:13:40.071
And this is, I think, the issue with
feedback, is it feels like I'm making a

00:13:40.071 --> 00:13:42.251
statement of truth that you don't like.

00:13:42.731 --> 00:13:44.171
But that's not really what's happening.

00:13:44.172 --> 00:13:48.252
What I'm telling you is, "Here's
how I perceive what is happening.

00:13:48.672 --> 00:13:51.681
Here's how I'm experiencing what
you're doing," and maybe even,

00:13:51.681 --> 00:13:53.172
"Here's what I'm thinking about that."

00:13:53.742 --> 00:13:58.671
That's a very different claim than like,
"You are not good at your job." Right?

00:13:58.901 --> 00:14:03.102
"You are bad at this thing." I might
be like, "Look, what you did here

00:14:03.112 --> 00:14:06.252
didn't have the effect that we hoped
it would." I think that would be

00:14:06.252 --> 00:14:09.591
enough for most people to understand
and like, "Okay, can I get better

00:14:09.591 --> 00:14:11.011
or not?" And they can ask questions.

00:14:11.262 --> 00:14:12.021
You know what's funny about this?

00:14:12.041 --> 00:14:15.171
I'm like working on fiction writings,
and I have a developmental editor.

00:14:15.271 --> 00:14:17.281
And so a development editor, the
way it works is like you write,

00:14:17.291 --> 00:14:19.851
you send them pages, and they
give you feedback on the pages.

00:14:19.851 --> 00:14:20.461
They give you direct feedbacks.

00:14:20.461 --> 00:14:23.531
They go through your writing, they
make comments, and they give you a

00:14:23.531 --> 00:14:26.262
letter that's like, "Here's what I see,
here's what I think, here's what you

00:14:26.262 --> 00:14:27.381
need to work on," blah, blah, blah.

00:14:27.771 --> 00:14:32.531
It feels deeply personal, and it's
very vulnerable to write something,

00:14:32.812 --> 00:14:35.842
because it comes from you and
it's who you are, and then have

00:14:35.842 --> 00:14:37.692
someone give you feedback on that.

00:14:38.021 --> 00:14:40.951
And recently in our meeting, I was like,
"Uh, you know, I really love the way you

00:14:40.951 --> 00:14:44.551
give feedback." And like, I felt like
I learned something from her, and this

00:14:44.551 --> 00:14:47.921
is kind of where this is coming from,
'cause one, the feedback always feels

00:14:47.941 --> 00:14:49.641
honest, and I don't always like it.

00:14:49.671 --> 00:14:50.871
I don't even always agree with it.

00:14:50.972 --> 00:14:53.821
And sometimes it's like the version
of like, this isn't good, and

00:14:53.821 --> 00:14:56.592
I understand what she's saying,
but I never feel defensive.

00:14:56.891 --> 00:14:58.961
I look forward to having
these meetings with her.

00:14:59.151 --> 00:15:01.061
I look forward to getting
her letters and feedback.

00:15:01.161 --> 00:15:02.362
I know it's not gonna all be positive.

00:15:02.362 --> 00:15:04.811
In fact, I expect it
not to all be positive.

00:15:05.102 --> 00:15:06.951
And I'm not sensitive about it at all.

00:15:07.212 --> 00:15:08.481
And I talked to her about it, actually.

00:15:08.481 --> 00:15:10.938
I said like, "You know, I was
gonna tell you that like, first of

00:15:10.938 --> 00:15:13.392
all, I teach a lot of classes and
like, you're really good at this.

00:15:13.481 --> 00:15:17.051
I really appreciate the way you give
feedback." And what she said was,

00:15:17.492 --> 00:15:22.741
"When I give feedback, I always think
about the intent of the author." So

00:15:22.742 --> 00:15:24.322
I'm like, "What were you trying to do?

00:15:24.361 --> 00:15:25.372
What was your goal here?

00:15:25.521 --> 00:15:27.661
You might have completely
failed, and I do all the time.

00:15:27.861 --> 00:15:31.971
And I need you to understand how you
failed because my job is to help you grow,

00:15:32.001 --> 00:15:36.492
so I, I have to give you this feedback."
And that engagement with her, I think

00:15:36.492 --> 00:15:41.242
why that feedback works, and what I love
about it, is I feel seen in the feedback.

00:15:41.381 --> 00:15:44.031
And when she says something, I'm
like, "That's correct," right?

00:15:44.061 --> 00:15:45.021
But I feel seen.

00:15:45.161 --> 00:15:47.651
'Cause by the way, I worked with someone
else who I hated, couldn't stand her.

00:15:47.651 --> 00:15:51.542
I was like, "This person is terrible."
And she was also probably right, but

00:15:51.551 --> 00:15:55.791
the feeling was like, this person
is telling me what I should be.

00:15:56.201 --> 00:15:59.831
She's telling me what she sees and
how I'm falling short of her ideal.

00:16:00.131 --> 00:16:02.061
It was like even if it was
right, it was just bad.

00:16:02.331 --> 00:16:05.891
And this other woman is like, "I
see what you are trying to be.

00:16:06.102 --> 00:16:07.891
I see what you are trying to do.

00:16:08.271 --> 00:16:11.591
And I'm gonna tell you where
you're falling short." It was

00:16:11.591 --> 00:16:13.091
just a world of difference.

00:16:13.152 --> 00:16:16.311
And I thought about that and I'm like,
look, if you assume that people are

00:16:16.311 --> 00:16:19.741
trying to be successful, right, and
you're looking at their intent and like

00:16:19.751 --> 00:16:22.752
even when they fall short, it's not that
people don't know they're falling short.

00:16:22.962 --> 00:16:24.631
If they don't, then it
is your job to tell them.

00:16:24.731 --> 00:16:27.951
And so saying like, "I see what you're
trying to do. I see you're making effort.

00:16:28.381 --> 00:16:33.201
Here's where it might not be working."
And doing it in a way that takes seriously

00:16:33.201 --> 00:16:38.292
that person's desire to be successful,
I think changes things dramatically.

00:16:38.996 --> 00:16:40.616
Matt Abrahams: So much
richness in that answer.

00:16:40.626 --> 00:16:44.596
The part that I'm really reflecting
on in my own life, seeing the person

00:16:44.596 --> 00:16:49.475
for who they want to be versus who you
think they should be is a fundamental

00:16:49.476 --> 00:16:51.696
difference in how you approach feedback.

00:16:51.826 --> 00:16:55.856
And what you said earlier, which I think
is also really important, is what am

00:16:55.856 --> 00:16:58.405
I doing that's contributing to this?

00:16:58.735 --> 00:17:01.116
So it's not just about here's
what's wrong or here's what could

00:17:01.116 --> 00:17:02.706
be improved, it's what am I doing?

00:17:02.955 --> 00:17:08.205
And then really help the person to
see it through that understanding

00:17:08.215 --> 00:17:09.705
and being present for them.

00:17:09.985 --> 00:17:11.876
I have to really think about
how I've been giving feedback.

00:17:11.876 --> 00:17:12.665
I appreciate that.

00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:15.585
Last question I'll ask, the
class you teach is very popular.

00:17:15.586 --> 00:17:17.565
A lot of people are
really excited to take it.

00:17:17.575 --> 00:17:20.156
What's one thing you hope your
students take away from the class?

00:17:20.505 --> 00:17:23.366
Brian Lowery: The thing that I always
want people to take away is, and if

00:17:23.366 --> 00:17:26.535
you hear me talk outside of class,
I think it's probably more apparent,

00:17:26.545 --> 00:17:32.285
but I think for me, my class is
about being a better human being.

00:17:32.406 --> 00:17:33.575
And I don't mean good.

00:17:33.615 --> 00:17:35.575
I don't mean like, I hope
you all are good people.

00:17:35.595 --> 00:17:37.655
You should strive to be good
people, but I'm not talking

00:17:37.656 --> 00:17:39.856
about morally a good person.

00:17:40.135 --> 00:17:43.975
What I'm talking about is
being better at being human.

00:17:44.225 --> 00:17:48.445
And I think the fundamental
thing about being human is our

00:17:48.455 --> 00:17:50.035
connections with other human beings.

00:17:50.035 --> 00:17:53.845
And I mean this literally, you are
not human without other human beings.

00:17:53.885 --> 00:17:56.686
You cannot be fully human
absent other human beings.

00:17:57.055 --> 00:18:03.495
And so what is defining about being human
is our connections with the quality of

00:18:03.496 --> 00:18:05.165
interactions with other human beings.

00:18:05.345 --> 00:18:07.625
When you show up at work and there
are people there, those are not

00:18:07.625 --> 00:18:11.176
different human beings than the human
beings that are at home or at any

00:18:11.176 --> 00:18:12.765
place else that you see human beings.

00:18:13.085 --> 00:18:18.036
And so being a better human being, being
more effective at engaging with human

00:18:18.036 --> 00:18:23.176
beings in relationships will definitely
make you a more effective leader.

00:18:23.565 --> 00:18:26.365
Matt Abrahams: It boils down
to connection and other-focus.

00:18:26.606 --> 00:18:28.085
Well, thank you, Brian.

00:18:28.565 --> 00:18:30.705
An incredibly rich conversation.

00:18:30.875 --> 00:18:35.055
It's about introspection, it's about
invitation and empathy and connection.

00:18:35.325 --> 00:18:39.315
And it is through that that we
build ourselves and the stories

00:18:39.315 --> 00:18:40.415
that we work with others.

00:18:40.505 --> 00:18:43.765
So it's about communication
internally and externally.

00:18:44.085 --> 00:18:44.605
Thank you.

00:18:46.678 --> 00:18:48.628
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

00:18:48.628 --> 00:18:50.358
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:18:50.707 --> 00:18:56.377
To learn more from Brian, please
listen to episodes 23, 84, and 142.

00:18:56.378 --> 00:18:59.237
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

00:18:59.428 --> 00:19:02.038
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:19:02.288 --> 00:19:06.308
Our music is from Floyd Wonder with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:19:06.727 --> 00:19:09.877
Please find us on YouTube and
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