315. Quietly Powerful: How Introverts Can Communicate With Confidence & Impact

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Introversion is an asset.

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Quiet leaders bring tremendous value.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I really look forward
to speaking with Susan Cain.

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Susan is a former Wall Street
lawyer and negotiation consultant.

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She has spent years researching
how society's extrovert ideal

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dramatically shapes our workplaces,
schools, and daily communication.

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Susan is a New York Times bestselling
author of Quiet: The Power of

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Introverts in a World That Can't
Stop Talking, and Bittersweet: How

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Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole.

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She also writes The Quiet Life Substack.

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Well, welcome, Susan.

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I have looked forward to this
conversation for so long.

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I really appreciate you being here
and the work that you've done.

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Oh my gosh.

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I appreciate your work so much.

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There's so much overlap between
what we do, so I'm really glad

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that we got to make this happen.

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Well, thank you.

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Uh, shall we get started?

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Let's do.

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All right.

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I'd love to start with one of your
foundational principles, and that

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is how people show up in terms of
extroversion and introversion, and

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I'd love for you to talk about what
those are and also to walk us through

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what you mean by the extrovert ideal.

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Well, introversion and extroversion,
your listeners have probably heard

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before of the idea of it being kind
of a question of where do you get

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your energy, that introverts derive
energy from a more internal source, and

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therefore like quieter settings, and
extroverts are kind of the opposite.

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And there's so much we could say about
what these terms really mean, but I

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think that's as good a definition as any.

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And the way I think to really ask
yourself which one am I really, because

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people lose sight of it, especially many
introverts do because there's so much

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pressure from the time we're very small
to act extroverted that many introverts

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come to believe they actually are
extroverted until they think about it.

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So a couple of questions
you could ask yourself.

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One would be, imagine that you have a
weekend or a vacation and you have no

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social or professional obligations.

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How do you spend that time?

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Who do you spend it with?

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How many people do you spend it with?

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And what kinds of
relationships are those people?

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Like, are you choosing to spend it with
the people you know really well, or do you

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prefer the novelty of meeting new people?

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So all these things, when you
really lift the obligations,

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tell you a lot about who you are.

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So the extroverted ideal is basically
the cultural norm, which by the

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way, we see all over the world.

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There are national and cultural
differences we can talk about, but

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still, I haven't really yet encountered a
country where it isn't so, that there is

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a norm for people to be bold, assertive,
talkative, and socially dominant.

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And it is important to say that
especially in many Confucian societies,

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in China, Korea, and so on, there are
great variations to this because in a

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society where social life is organized
more around group harmony, there's

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kind of like equally an imperative for
people not to stand out too much and not

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to talk too much nonsense is a phrase
that I often hear from these cultures.

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And so I often find in those cultures
you have a kind of double consciousness

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of, on the one hand, wanting not to
talk too much, and on the other hand,

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feeling that you're supposed to.

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Whereas in the United States, I think
it's much more like, yeah, we all

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feel that we're supposed to be uber
comfortable in social settings and so on.

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And that can really
work against introverts.

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And in fact, there are all kinds
of studies showing that, like

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there's one from 2024 that showed
that introverts are often sort of

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outperforming on actual productivity
measures, but then not doing as well

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because they're seen as less visible.

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So one of the things we should
actually really talk about is how

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do you become more visible as an
introvert while still being yourself?

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Absolutely.

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There's a whole bunch of research
that says many of the characteristics

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associated with people who are
more introverted actually are

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critically essential to how we
work, how we relate, et cetera.

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The ability to do deep thinking, to
have higher emotional intelligence about

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what's going on, to be able to listen
deeply, those are all useful skills.

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Before we get into the actions that
more introverted people can take, I,

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given the work that I do around helping
people feel more comfortable and

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confident in communication, to my mind,
there's a confusing of having anxiety

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in speaking and being introverted,
and I'd love to hear your take on it.

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I know what I say, and I'm happy to
share that with you, but I'd love

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to hear your approach to it because
I believe fully it's possible to

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be a very confident introvert and
to be a very anxious extrovert.

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Absolutely.

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I think what you're getting at
is the overlap and the confusion

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between the difference between
shyness and introversion.

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My work actually touches on both.

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Both are relevant, but shyness is much
more what you were just describing.

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It's a kind of excessive social anxiety
that tends to come out in situations

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where people are judged, whether that's a
work meeting or a job interview or giving

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a speech, or could be going on a date.

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And many people will experience
shyness and social anxiety in

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one of those settings, but not
in another, so it really varies.

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And as you say, you could be an extrovert
who has that kind of anxiety, and you

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could be an introvert who really doesn't.

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Although in practice, there is
some overlap between the two,

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but yeah, not necessarily.

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Because introversion is much more about,
it's just a preference for being in

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situations where you're less bombarded
by stimulation of all kinds, like, you

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know, fewer people around, less sound,
fewer inputs, and that's where introverts

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are at their best, at their most
creative, at their happiest, and so on.

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So that ends up translating into the
social world because if you are an

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introvert who prefers fewer inputs
coming at you, you're probably not

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gonna be at your happiest when you're
in a big group meeting with multiple

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social signals coming in all at once.

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But that's not necessarily
shyness, it can be introversion.

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Right.

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And I really appreciate you
separating those two concepts.

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And again, there are clearly relations,
but there are things that people who

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are shy or people who have anxiety
around communication or social anxiety

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can do that can help them, that may
or may not help address some of the

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issues that they're experiencing
with introversion and extroversion.

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I'm curious, what advice and guidance do
you give people to help them feel more

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confident and calm in those circumstances?

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Well, I mean, it depends on the
setting, and different settings are

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challenging for different people.

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But the core principle that I would say
applies to all these settings is the

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kind of miracle of desensitization, which
is an idea well proven in psychology,

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that if you have a fear of anything, it
could be a fear of snakes or elevators

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or whatever, the best way to overcome
the fear is to expose yourself to it in

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very small and very manageable doses.

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So, for example, I had a fear,
like a really, really deep and

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grave fear of public speaking.

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I had it all my life.

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And the way I overcame that was,
it was actually when my book Quiet

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was coming out, and I didn't want
my fear to stand in the way of my

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ability to communicate about the book.

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So I went to this seminar for people with
public speaking anxiety that used these

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principles of desensitization, so that
on the first day, all you had to do was

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stand up, say your name, sit back down,
you were finished, you declare victory.

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And then you'd come back the next
week, and the exercise would be

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ever so slightly more challenging.

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Uh, maybe you'd stand up and
answer a few questions about

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yourself and then sit back down.

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And what you're really doing is little
by little, you are rewiring your brain.

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What happens when you have social
anxiety is your brain is basically

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interpreting the social encounter as an
encounter with a saber-toothed tiger,

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and you're reacting as if that were true.

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And so you're basically teaching your
brain that it's not true, and that this

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kind of social encounter is actually okay.

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And if you do that enough
times, it actually really works.

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Yeah, there are many, many techniques.

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Desensitization is a very powerful one,
one that's been studied for a long time.

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And the cool thing is you don't
actually have to do it in a situation

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like you did, where you're in front
of a group of people doing it.

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You can actually, there's a whole bunch
of research on visualization, where you

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can do it just inside your own head,
almost like a flight simulator for pilots.

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So for some people, it's just too much
to go to that initial meeting, so you

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can do some of that desensitization
through visualization, and it helps.

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I love that technique.

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I want to switch to what we all can do,
but leaders play a role in this as well.

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And you talk about quiet leaders.

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Can you define what that is?

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And then I want to ask about how we
can set up environments to support

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people who are more introverted.

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I think hopefully many of us can
think of quiet leaders we know.

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They're often people who listen
a little bit more than they talk.

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They maybe reflect a little more than
is typical before making a decision.

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They might lead through asking a lot of
questions and understanding inputs from

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their team and then going off to process
and then coming up with their decision.

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They often are building those
deep one-on-one relationships.

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So quiet leaders show up in these
forms, and there's actually quite

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a bit of data showing that quiet
leaders deliver outcomes that are as

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strong, and in some cases stronger,
than those of extroverted leaders.

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So it's a real paradox because the
problem is that people who have

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these characteristics tend not to
be cultivated as much for leadership

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positions, but that leads to a
colossal waste of talent because

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they actually deliver great results.

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And I think there has to be a, a mindset
shift over what good leaders are.

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As you were describing the characteristics
of an effective quiet leader, for

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me, that was quite aspirational.

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I would love in the leading I
do to exhibit some of those.

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If you were a manager, leader in an
organization and you wanted to build

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in practices, procedures that would
really allow introverts to feel more

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engaged or more comfortable, what
might be some things you would do?

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I could imagine, for example, having
updates where people might write

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the updates rather than have to
stand up and share their updates.

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I'm just curious if there's some very
specific tactics that you would put in

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place if you could set up an environment
in the workplace for introverts.

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Well, I think the first thing that I
would do is evaluate the evaluation

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system to make sure that when hiring
and when promoting, when identifying

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candidates for leadership within the
organization, to make sure you're

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using the right criteria so that
you're actually getting in your net the

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talented, committed introverts, because
I can tell you, you're probably not.

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You're probably letting a lot of
talented people slide through if

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the criteria look like coding for
sort of conventional visibility.

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So that's the first thing.

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I would give a lot of thought to how
do I structure meetings and making

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sure that there are times within each
person's workday where they get to put

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their head down and enter a state of
flow and know that they're not gonna

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be called into a spontaneous meeting.

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You know, and maybe that looks
like setting aside times in the

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workday where it's head down time.

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And then within meetings themselves,
there are so many different things one

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can do, like make sure that you hear
from everybody when making a group

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decision, but also building in time
for each person to be able to think.

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And that benefits everybody because what
tends to happen in meetings is there's

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not really much thought given in advance
to what you're going to be talking about.

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And then the loudest or most dominant
people come in and hog up the microphone.

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And we know from the Kellogg School
that three people do 70% of the

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talking in your typical meeting.

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So how do you avoid that?

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One of my favorite techniques
comes from the world of education.

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It's called think-pair-share.

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And what you do is you, let's say
you're trying to make a decision,

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you have everybody sit quietly
and think about their ideas.

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Then you have people talk about
it in pairs just with one other

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person, and only then do you
start sharing out with a group.

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And you end up getting not only
more participation, not only

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broader, but also more thoughtful
participation from everybody, the

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extroverts as well as the introverts.

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Think-pair-share is a technique
I have always adored and in my

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teaching use it repeatedly for
all the reasons you talked about.

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It's also a wonderful tool if
you have people who perhaps

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are newer to a language.

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It gives that same opportunity.

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Wonderful specific advice on
how to structure the meetings.

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The point about how we are assessing
people and what those criteria are

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in looking at how they are perhaps
negatively impacting introverts

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and finding the, the talent.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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I want to switch to your
other book, Bittersweet.

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And in that, you explore the power
of embracing emotional complexity,

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such as longing and sorrow.

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In a business world that heavily
indexes on positivity, crushing it,

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just moving forward, how can leaders
and all of us effectively communicate

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vulnerability and to be, you know,
emotionally whole when we show up at work?

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Any ideas about how to do that in
the way we relate and communicate?

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It's a tricky thing because there can
be a risk to being too vulnerable,

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especially if you're in a leadership
position, because people want to know

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that their boss has got it together
and that their leader knows what's

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happening and that they can rely on them.

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And at the same time, they
also want to know the truth.

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And the truth involves vulnerability
because the truth involves, "Well, I

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don't know if we're going to be able to
make our shipment. I don't know if we're

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going to be able to make our numbers."
So you want to find a way to share that

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information truthfully while at the same
time communicating that you have a plan.

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But kind of the broader perspective
for all that, I would offer a, a

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different example, which is a case
study that I wrote about in Bittersweet.

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This is a Harvard business case
study of an oil rig off the coast

00:14:45.788 --> 00:14:48.157
of Texas and the Gulf of Mexico.

00:14:48.457 --> 00:14:53.508
And they profiled the leader of this
oil rig, who was a very classical

00:14:53.557 --> 00:14:55.048
sort of dominant type of guy.

00:14:55.358 --> 00:15:00.598
And he started to feel that things
were not working the way they should.

00:15:00.898 --> 00:15:04.347
And he did a really introspective
deep dive and realized that the

00:15:04.347 --> 00:15:09.257
problem was that he wasn't being
truthful with the people in his

00:15:09.258 --> 00:15:11.338
workplace, with members of his family.

00:15:11.627 --> 00:15:15.297
He wasn't really being truthful
about what he was experiencing.

00:15:15.297 --> 00:15:19.537
And he went through this process of
learning to do that and of encouraging

00:15:19.718 --> 00:15:24.187
other workers to do that as well, to
really show up and talk about what

00:15:24.187 --> 00:15:25.947
was going on in their personal lives.

00:15:26.097 --> 00:15:31.968
And as a result of this, the accident
rates at this oil rig went way

00:15:31.968 --> 00:15:35.927
down because suddenly people were
comfortable saying, "You know what?

00:15:35.937 --> 00:15:39.057
I think this system might not
work, and I'm worried that

00:15:39.058 --> 00:15:40.148
there could be an accident.

00:15:40.148 --> 00:15:43.617
So how about if we try doing such and
such thing?" Whereas before, there had

00:15:43.618 --> 00:15:46.637
been a culture where it was a quite
macho culture, and you never would

00:15:46.637 --> 00:15:49.467
have wanted to do that because it
would have made you look too uncertain.

00:15:49.728 --> 00:15:53.877
So accident rates went down and
their productivity went way up.

00:15:54.387 --> 00:16:01.097
So the takeaway is there are ways to
express what you are truly experiencing.

00:16:01.297 --> 00:16:09.234
But if you pair it by offering a plan
and an idea and a belief of what we

00:16:09.234 --> 00:16:12.934
can do with this uncertainty, what
we can do with this vulnerability,

00:16:13.184 --> 00:16:14.264
then people will trust it.

00:16:14.693 --> 00:16:20.124
Setting up psychological safety and
role modeling, I think are two things

00:16:20.124 --> 00:16:24.014
I took away from what you said, and the
result of it can be really positive.

00:16:24.384 --> 00:16:27.334
I appreciate that, and clearly
there are benefits to that.

00:16:27.413 --> 00:16:33.104
I see a thread across your work is
trying to find ways to bring power and

00:16:33.104 --> 00:16:37.734
motivation and the full strength of the
people in organizations when there might

00:16:37.734 --> 00:16:39.823
be biases against some of those ways.

00:16:40.856 --> 00:16:42.626
Well, Susan, this has been lovely.

00:16:42.696 --> 00:16:45.706
I knew that we would learn a lot
from you, and I personally am

00:16:45.706 --> 00:16:47.166
really enjoying the conversation.

00:16:47.466 --> 00:16:50.746
Before we end, I always ask
the guests three questions.

00:16:50.746 --> 00:16:53.716
One I make up just for you, and the
others I've been asking everybody.

00:16:53.945 --> 00:16:54.756
Are you up for that?

00:16:54.936 --> 00:16:56.046
Yes, absolutely.

00:16:56.456 --> 00:16:58.355
So I was delighted to learn something.

00:16:58.356 --> 00:17:03.675
As we were arranging for this meeting,
I came to learn from your team

00:17:04.096 --> 00:17:08.836
that you encourage people to take
time away from work and technology.

00:17:09.106 --> 00:17:11.576
Can you share a little bit about
what motivates this, and what

00:17:11.576 --> 00:17:14.576
purpose does it fulfill for
you and for those on your team?

00:17:15.055 --> 00:17:21.555
I guess beyond the obvious answer to that
question is the fact that I personally

00:17:21.565 --> 00:17:24.685
have experienced burnout in my life.

00:17:25.076 --> 00:17:27.475
I know what it feels like,
and I know what causes it.

00:17:27.675 --> 00:17:32.926
And I've experienced it in situations
where I didn't like my job so much, and

00:17:32.926 --> 00:17:37.135
I've also experienced it with my current
work, and I adore my current work.

00:17:37.285 --> 00:17:41.555
And there's still such a thing as burnout,
even with work that you really love.

00:17:41.995 --> 00:17:46.695
We're especially prone to it in the age
of technology, where we are so tethered

00:17:46.706 --> 00:17:49.106
to our phones and to our laptops.

00:17:49.106 --> 00:17:52.376
And like now people don't even
say, "Let's get on a phone call."

00:17:52.376 --> 00:17:55.656
They say, "Let's have a Zoom." So,
like just to have a conversation,

00:17:55.666 --> 00:17:57.525
you're often staring into a screen.

00:17:57.526 --> 00:17:58.395
It's terrible.

00:17:58.655 --> 00:18:03.185
So I think we really need to be getting
away from all that as much as possible,

00:18:03.435 --> 00:18:07.766
not only to stay sane, but to stay, you
know, creative and activated and happy.

00:18:08.386 --> 00:18:08.656
Right.

00:18:08.715 --> 00:18:11.656
And I just thought it was great to
see that it was a policy, and it was

00:18:11.656 --> 00:18:14.865
a policy that was being dictated from
the person running the organization.

00:18:15.355 --> 00:18:20.085
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:18:20.485 --> 00:18:24.836
Well, you know, my favorite
communicator of all time, to whom

00:18:24.836 --> 00:18:29.765
I dedicated my book Bittersweet,
is Leonard Cohen, the musician.

00:18:29.846 --> 00:18:35.966
And I love him, and many people
do, because he is telling the

00:18:35.966 --> 00:18:37.885
truth, and you know he is.

00:18:38.045 --> 00:18:39.955
He's not the best singer.

00:18:40.125 --> 00:18:41.545
He wasn't the best-looking man.

00:18:41.785 --> 00:18:43.785
He often wasn't happy.

00:18:43.795 --> 00:18:46.665
He suffered from depression
throughout much of his life.

00:18:47.055 --> 00:18:49.655
And he told the truth about all of it.

00:18:49.985 --> 00:18:55.715
And in so doing, he became incredibly
charismatic in his own way, and you felt

00:18:55.715 --> 00:18:56.896
like you were getting the real thing.

00:18:57.396 --> 00:18:58.026
Absolutely.

00:18:58.026 --> 00:19:02.346
That authenticity, that truthfulness, very
important, and I appreciate you sharing.

00:19:02.685 --> 00:19:03.866
Final question for you.

00:19:04.135 --> 00:19:09.535
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:19:10.252 --> 00:19:13.512
Well, I mean, I guess the first
one is what we were just talking

00:19:13.512 --> 00:19:17.872
about and have been talking about
throughout, and I would say sincerity.

00:19:18.052 --> 00:19:23.951
We are evolutionarily designed to be able
to read all kinds of cues from the people

00:19:23.952 --> 00:19:29.271
we're speaking to and make all kinds
of unconscious conclusions about them

00:19:29.452 --> 00:19:31.302
without even knowing how we got there.

00:19:31.671 --> 00:19:36.831
And so whatever mode you are speaking
in, people are going to know it.

00:19:37.111 --> 00:19:40.961
And so it is true that there are
people like, you know, your classic con

00:19:40.962 --> 00:19:47.091
man, let's say, who gets by by making
people feel really good and believing

00:19:47.091 --> 00:19:51.152
something that isn't true, by promising
things that the people want to hear.

00:19:51.861 --> 00:19:53.711
But that doesn't work over time.

00:19:53.992 --> 00:19:57.802
That kind of person is really
good in a first meeting, maybe

00:19:57.802 --> 00:19:59.221
a second meeting, maybe a third.

00:19:59.672 --> 00:20:00.811
Doesn't work over time.

00:20:01.021 --> 00:20:07.621
Over time, what works is truly showing
up in a way where you actually care,

00:20:07.621 --> 00:20:09.371
you're actually trying to give value.

00:20:09.461 --> 00:20:10.261
People will know it.

00:20:10.771 --> 00:20:12.061
So maybe I'm saying two things.

00:20:12.062 --> 00:20:17.191
One is to attend to your inner state,
knowing that it's your inner state that

00:20:17.271 --> 00:20:19.122
people are going to be reacting to.

00:20:19.421 --> 00:20:20.991
And number two is to be sincere.

00:20:21.501 --> 00:20:28.201
And then I would say number three is
to find the place in you that truly

00:20:28.332 --> 00:20:34.532
enjoys other people and enjoys the
world, and try to tap into that aspect

00:20:34.532 --> 00:20:38.781
of yourself when you're going into
difficult communication settings.

00:20:39.211 --> 00:20:43.891
Because we all have the more pessimistic
sides or more despairing sides or

00:20:43.891 --> 00:20:48.681
whatever, and then we have the hopeful
and positive energy sides of ourselves.

00:20:48.681 --> 00:20:52.491
Both those sides are okay and
great, but it can be helpful to

00:20:52.711 --> 00:20:55.542
just sort of mindfully shift from
one to the other as you need to.

00:20:56.031 --> 00:20:59.501
Yeah, and the ability to toggle
between those is really important.

00:20:59.512 --> 00:21:03.312
So understand your inner state, where
you're coming from, how you are in the

00:21:03.312 --> 00:21:08.022
world, be sincere, and look for the
external opportunities where you really

00:21:08.022 --> 00:21:10.161
find joy and connection in others.

00:21:10.481 --> 00:21:13.761
Those are really powerful
and important ingredients.

00:21:14.181 --> 00:21:16.171
And this has been a really
important conversation.

00:21:16.171 --> 00:21:19.562
I know many people listening and
watching to this, and just many

00:21:19.601 --> 00:21:24.491
people in the world feel in some ways
inadequate or deficient because of

00:21:24.701 --> 00:21:26.752
their introversion or their shyness.

00:21:26.992 --> 00:21:30.921
And in fact, the contributions and
opportunities that they have to help

00:21:30.921 --> 00:21:32.872
everybody are very positive and strong.

00:21:32.872 --> 00:21:35.781
And I appreciate you highlighting
what those are and ways in

00:21:35.781 --> 00:21:36.871
which we can enable that.

00:21:36.882 --> 00:21:39.202
So thank you for your time,
and thank you for your insight.

00:21:39.651 --> 00:21:40.241
Oh my gosh.

00:21:40.242 --> 00:21:43.331
Thank you so much for having me and
for the work you do in the world.

00:21:43.351 --> 00:21:46.271
I think it's so, so
important, so thank you.

00:21:47.766 --> 00:21:49.946
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

00:21:49.946 --> 00:21:51.736
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:21:52.136 --> 00:21:54.716
To learn more about confidence
building, please listen to

00:21:54.716 --> 00:21:57.106
episode 69 with Kelly McGonigal.

00:21:57.596 --> 00:22:01.056
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me,

00:22:01.226 --> 00:22:05.176
Matt Abrahams, with special thanks
to the Podium Podcast Company.

00:22:05.486 --> 00:22:07.286
Our music is by Floyd Wonder.

00:22:07.675 --> 00:22:10.476
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00:22:13.126 --> 00:22:16.126
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