337. Success Is Situational: How Feedback & Practice Transform Your Communication

0:00 Sometimes the most important thing you can do to make a change in your life is not persevere, but to change your situation. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm delighted to bring you my conversation with Angela Duckworth. Angela is a MacArthur Fellow, the co-host of the Freakonomics radio show, No Stupid Questions, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and the co-director of the Penn Wharton Behavior Change for Good Initiative. Angela's first book, Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, is a number one New York Times bestseller, and her TED Talk on the same topic is among the most viewed of all time.

0:48 Her new book is called Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best. Well, welcome, Angela. I've been a huge fan of your work for a long time, and we have lots of friends in common, Katy Milkman, Allison Wood Brooks. I am thrilled to meet you in person. Thanks for being here. Matt, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Awesome. Shall we get started? Let's do it. Excellent. We have often spoken about grit and tenacity on this show, especially around communication and improving communication skills. As somebody who has spent a lot of time studying grit and tenacity, can you share with us what that means for you, and what it is and what it isn't? And you have four pillars of grit that I'd love for you to share with the audience, too.

1:33 Well, I have always been a striver. I see grit as striving longer and more consistently than most people do. I mean, really grit is about stamina. And when I was growing up, I knew that things weren't coming as easily as my classmates. And when I grew up to become a psychologist, I really wanted to shine a light on the importance of effort, sustained effort to becoming better at whatever it is that you wanna do. And so that occupied me, and you mentioned the four pillars. I, I did identify that if grit is passion and perseverance for long-term goals, you can ask the question: What makes somebody passionate?

2:21 What makes somebody persevering? So let's take passion first, really loving what you do and staying in love with what you do. One element that you cannot negotiate out of is interest. You cannot be passionate over a long period about something that doesn't make you curious, that doesn't draw your attention. So, you know, if you wanna feel more passionate, you know, if you're like, "Oh, I wanna be passionate for long-term goals," start with what you're interested in. Start with what grabs your attention. You'll find that you're a genius when it comes to the things that you really care about in that way. And the second element of, of passion is feeling like the thing that you're doing is important, and interest and importance are different.

3:03 Importance is, you know, this is meaningful. Usually it means that this helps somebody else. Like when you get right down to it, people who have a sense of purpose, a calling, this work is important, aren't only curious. My calling is to be a psychologist, so I'm interested in psychology and this is my way of making the world a, a, a bit of a better place. So those are two. Let's move on to the other two. I said passion is half of grit. The other half is perseverance. And when you ask the question, where does perseverance come from? It's not willpower. It's not forcing yourself to do things that you hate.

3:44 I think the first place to begin is resilience in the face of setbacks, right? So perseverance is like going, um, when you could have quit. And when you ask the question, why would somebody do that? You are resilient in the face of setbacks when you have the belief that you can overcome those setbacks and that you can become better. Growth mindset. You know, the, the belief that your abilities are malleable, not fixed. In my research, the more growth mindset you have, the belief that abilities are malleable at time one, the more grit you have at time two. But then the more grit you have at time two, the more of a growth mindset you have at time three.

4:25 So there's a bit of a, kind of a self-fulfilling and virtuous cycle that comes from the optimism to change and then of course putting in the work. And then finally, there is something that I think doesn't get enough attention, which is not the, you know, perseverance in the face of enormous setbacks and failures and pratfalls, but just the daily dedication of people who become better at their craft. And for that, I would say it's really the habit of doing deliberate practice, the high quality practice, working on your weaknesses with feedback and consistency, and that's sometimes, you know, nicknamed the 10,000-hour rule.

5:05 Um, but it's certainly a habit of, of high achievers and the strivers that I study. So I believe in passion and perseverance for long-term goals, and I believe we can kind of reverse engineer where that comes from when we ask the question like why would somebody be passionate and why would somebody be persevering? I really appreciate the delineation there, and passion and perseverance are what I see in the people I know who have a lot of tenacity and grit. And I, in myself, uh, my passion for, for communication and persevered that in service of that goal for a long time. I'd like to drill down a little bit on deliberate practice. So can you help share, uh, some advice and guidance around what makes for effective deliberate practice?

5:48 Is it simply just getting the reps, or is there something more that makes that meaningful? We talk a lot in the world of communication about practice, but it needs to be very purposeful, goal-driven practice to help. So I'd love to hear your insights there. I'd like to tell you a story that I think is very practical advice for anybody who's trying to become a better communicator. And there are actually two people that I'd like to share. One is the scientist behind the research on deliberate practice, who coined the term deliberate practice. His name was Anders Ericsson, and Anders was like we used to joke, you know, the world expert on world experts 'cause, you know, grand chess masters and prima ballerinas. I mean, this is all he did was to study the skill development of people who became really the best at what they did.

6:33 And he wanted to make the following point, and I think the term like 10,000 hours is, is, is not quite getting at what it is because it's not just quantity it's also quality. You could put 10,000 or more hours of reps into becoming a better public speaker and not actually become that much better unless you do what Anders found was the, you know, common practices of, of the experts that he studied across all the domains that he studied. One is that your practice is very goal-directed. You're not just like, "Hey, I'm going to speak better today." You actually have a very particular dimension, a very specific maybe even sub-skill, if you wanna call it that, that you're trying to hone in that moment.

7:16 Then you practice with complete concentration. You, you really give it a full-throated effort, so to speak. And then you get immediate feedback, um, on what you did well and what you need to further calibrate. And then, of course, you have to repeat it over and over again. But that's the difference between high-quality practice and low-quality practice. I didn't really have a goal. I wasn't trying 100%, and I wasn't getting immediate feedback. So towards the very end of Anders' life, he was a mentor of mine. We researched, um, grit and, um, deliberate practice together because gritty people do more deliberate practice. And he said, "You can only really do this high quality practice with support, with help, with a mentor."

7:59 I mean, somebody has to help you set the goal and somebody has to give you the feedback to improve. And that brings me to Bill McGowan. I have a coach. I think I am twice the speaker, twice the communicator that I am today because my hours of practice have been guided by Bill McGowan. One of the things that he would like to say about this high quality practice is that the quality matters and the quantity matters. So I think he would, like you, say that it's a skill. Let's talk about it. Let's unpack it. Let's give examples. Um, and he would like to say that if you really want to be a better communicator and you are willing to do that high quality practice and you are willing to put in the reps of the high quality practice, anybody can become a great speaker.

8:46 I absolutely support that. Somebody who does what I do for a living, teaching strategic communication, coaching people, certainly believes that everybody can improve and, and become good at it. Uh, I appreciate the idea of being very goal-directed in, in the practice and the fact that you need feedback and guidance. I'm curious if in your work and in your own personal experience, what makes for good feedback that helps people to really improve and stay motivated to improve? 'Cause feedback comes in a lot of varieties. Well, one thing I'd like to say about feedback is that it's not only negative feedback that makes us better at what we do. Positive feedback can be enormously helpful.

9:26 Turns out that amateurs seek out and, um, benefit from positive feedback because they're not yet sure they can do this. So if you've got a total rookie or somebody who's deeply insecure about their communication skills I do think praise helps in terms of motivation. But when you're an expert, by the way, you're just into efficiency and you're like, you don't have to tell me I'm a great speaker. I just want to know what I need to do differently. So, so one thing is that positive feedback helps in that way, but the other reason I think we need to tell people what they're doing right is that they may not know what it is they are doing that is effective. And essentially what all of this practice is leading to is a sophisticated and ever more sophisticated mental representation of what speaking should be like.

10:13 And that is true of chess players and ballerinas and public speakers. It's like you have increasingly sophisticated mental representations. The feedback is what's refining that mental representation, and it's not just negative feedback, although that's very important. It's also positive feedback that does that. It was effective when. That's the exact phrase I ask my students in my own classes to use to give me feedback on things they want me to continue to do as their professor. It was effective when, complete the sentence, right? So you know, it was effective when you were very specific and you gave examples. It was effective when you bridged to the business world. That's where we are. And then, yes, I ask them for a next time try.

10:55 I was like, "Next time try," complete the sentence. And then they'll say, "Next time try not to, you know, talk to your slides when you're supposed to talk to us." So I think of positive and negative feedback in some ways as just being like two sides of a coin. It's all about information that updates our mental representation of what we're trying to do. Angela, it was effective when you clearly delineated the value of praise, uh, and especially for people who are nervous and novice. I found that really insightful. And it's all about helping people develop mental models of what success looks like. I have found that when asking for feedback, and that's an important part of it too, is asking, is that you have to be specific.

11:36 When you say, you know, "Was I good?" or, "Did it go well?" It's easy to say yes. Uh, but when you ask for specifics, it can really help. I appreciate you sharing with us the, how feedback helps us to see the, what is possible and how we can get there. I'd like to turn to your new book, Situated. Uh, in it, you make the case that we're more likely to succeed in changing ourselves if we change our situation first. How have you seen this play out in your own life and in the work that you've done? Well, I started out, as I told you, just studying individual effort, studying it as a psychologist, kind of living it as a person. But there came a point in my career where I began to ask the question, you know, where does effort pay off?

12:18 You know, around what people and in what circumstances does that individual effort have the highest return? And that's what is the topic of this book, Situated. In my own life too, though, Matt, I had to learn, actually, I think a little later than honestly would have been ideal, that just trying hard really only go so far. And there comes a point where, like, just trying hard, for many of us, certainly for me, where just trying harder wasn't working, and I had the reflexive reaction, well, just try even harder. And I think truly that leads to burnout. It was a crisis for my career, it was a crisis for my, my marriage.

13:02 Um, and I had to change the situation. It's not something that I think a lot of us hear growing up. Like, "Hey, if things are going really badly, why don't you ask the, whether the situation could be different?" In fact, we're asked not to complain about our situation. We're asked to make the best of our circumstances because they are given and beyond our control. But I asked for help. I mean, we've talked a lot during this conversation about how you'll be a better communicator if someone else helps you become a better communicator. Even if it's a friend who listens to you and gives you feedback. It, it's been a paradigm shift for me to ask whether I can make my situation my ally rather than just try harder.

13:45 I think many of us fall into that trap of, of just try harder. I think we get a lot of messages from society, from those we respect, just try harder. And taking that step back to really reflect on the situation and how you can change it and perhaps invite others to help. For many people, though, I can imagine, myself included, asking for help can feel like admitting defeat or showing that I, I don't understand or, or know something. Do you have advice and guidance on how to ask for that help or how to, to come to others and say, "I would love to learn and be mentored by you"? It's not only research, but my personal experience that shows that there can be something embarrassing.

14:26 It sort of implicitly puts you on a lower level. Like, if I'm asking you for help, like, that means I'm helpless. Um, I can't do it and I'm looking up to you to do that. I felt that way for really, I still feel that way. I would be lying if I didn't admit, confess that, you know, I have on my wall, by the way, Matt, like it says, "Ask Andrea." You know why? So I won't keep trying to solve my own problems here at Wharton. Like, oh, I'll figure out the HDMI cable. Like, oh, I've got to figure out a way to mail this package. It says in marker, "Ask Andrea," because I should just ask Andrea for help. Andrea runs this department and she's gonna know better than I do.

15:08 She actually came to my doorway the other day. She was like, "I just want to remind you that you can ask me for help." And I said, "Thank you for that reminder. I need to write it down in marker." So I changed my physical situation in order to change my social situation. But I think asking for help is difficult, especially for those of us who have gotten pretty darn far in life by being an independence striver. I think that one way that we can begin doing that is to recognize the following: when people are asked for help, they love it. I mean, just think about the last time you were asked by somebody to do you a favor, give you a tip, take five minutes. I love it. And then I think, wait, if the person being asked for help is not burdened, but in fact feels like it's a blessing, maybe that could nudge me, if you will, uh, to be a little more forthcoming.

15:58 So I think recognizing that asking for help is human, and it is a grace to ask other people to do what they can do for you. If you need reminding like I do, get out a marker and write that on a Post-it, like ask, you know, ask Andrea, and put it where you can see it. I have it at eye level. I appreciate everything you said. I often feel very uncomfortable and awkward asking for help, and yet people will express that they're very happy to help. I think the point you made, though, about Andrea coming to you and saying, "Hey, remember, I'm here to help," I think all of us could do what she did for you to others and, uh, who, who we are in service of and around and say, "Hey, I'm happy to help." And that can make it easier.

16:44 So we have to realize that, that we're giving ourselves a little bit of grace. The others don't feel bothered by it. And if we are in a position to help others, to make ourselves available for that. Totally agree. So Angela, I knew this was gonna be a great conversation. Uh, as you know, before we end, I like to ask three questions. One I'm gonna create just for you, and two I've been asking people for a long time. Are you ready for that? I'm ready. Excellent. It is rare that I get to speak to somebody who has one of the most popular and, and viewed TED Talks. Uh, as somebody who's coached a lot of people on TED Talks and has delivered some TEDx Talks myself, I know what it can feel like to stand on that red dot. I'm curious to get your thoughts about what that preparation looked like.

17:26 The talk is amazing and wonderful and so helpful. Can you walk us through a little bit about how you thought about preparing for that and, and the work that you actually did to deliver a, a talk that has been so impactful? I think a lot of us can learn from the preparation practice and, and thoughtfulness that you put into it. Well, Matt, you're very kind. Um, I'll tell you the story of how I got a TED Talk and, um, and then how I was coached to do a better job than I did when I first started. I originally did a TEDx Talk. It was being run by the Blue Man Group, by Chris Wink in particular, and, um, you know, I, I agreed to take a train up from Philadelphia, and I didn't really prepare at all.

18:06 I was like, "Oh, you want me to talk about grit? Like, that's all I think about, no problem." I delivered a 18-minute talk, and then I didn't think very much about it. I think that TEDx Talk is what led the TED producers, I think it was Chris Anderson who, um, said, "You know, we'd like you to give not a, a 18-minute talk, but like a 6 to 7-minute talk." He coached me in the following way. I gave him my original idea. I think I probably performed for him. He said, "You know, you keep mentioning all these other scientists." Like, to me, that was very important to not take credit for other people's work. He was like, "That might be fine for a scientific paper. It's not gonna work for a TED Talk. It's just simply gonna be a distraction." And then he eventually convinced me of that, so I kind of cut out a lot.

18:54 So part of what made that talk effective is what was omitted, not what was added. I think that he taught me that you are always telling a story, so if you think of it as kind of like, there is a once upon a time, then something happens, and then there's an ending. Just the mental model that you are telling a story, um, that was very helpful to me. So I'm again in New York, but this time, you know, higher stakes. He said, um, "And you aren't going to use a teleprompter." And I was like, "Wait, wait, I'm not gonna get a tel-" He's like, "Yeah, I'll see you tomorrow," or something like. So I did practice the talk enough that I had it memorized.

19:35 And I, I will just say that as a generalizable insight, I do think that when you have something to say, you have practiced saying it, telling that story, you have a mentor or a coach who can be your audience and to give you the feedback. I mean, I, I do think that it certainly improved my ability to share the message of grit. I appreciate the story. Two big takeaways there is often it's what you take out that can actually strengthen a message, be it a big talk or, or even a pitch that you're making, uh, or even in a conversation. And then the other idea that I thought was, uh, critical is this idea that you have to practice, and also the storytelling aspect, having structure, beginning, middle, end, so important.

20:24 Thank you. Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? Bill Strickland. I have a speaking agent, and it's not Bill Strickland, but he has the same speaking agent as I do. And I asked my speaking agent, David Lavin. He's seen thousands of speakers. It's all he does, is to watch people speak and organize their speaking. And I asked him, "Who's the best speaker you've ever seen?" And he said, "Bill Strickland." I had never heard of Bill Strickland. Well, I went and found Bill Strickland. I learned who he is. He runs a vocational arts program in Pittsburgh, and he is the best speaker because he has something to say.

21:10 When I think of who the best speakers are, and I think of eloquence, all the things that we've talked about matter. I believe in reps, I believe in feedback, I believe in having a coach, I believe in having a community. When you really have something to say, then you are gonna be a fantastic speaker. And Bill Strickland, when he speaks about the work he does, he has something he wants to say, and that makes us want to hear it. Having something to say and the passion to bring it to others, uh, really powerful. Final question for you, and you've alluded to some of this, uh, but I'd love to hear it, uh, spelled out. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

21:53 Actually, I'm gonna give you three ingredients, like a different way than, because I just published a paper on this, and it's not yet in print, and it's on communication. I recently did research on people introducing themselves in about a 60-second kind of like, "Hi, I'm Angela." Um, and we coded those videos of these introductions on three dimensions, and I think they give you the three elements that are my answer to your question. One was verbal, two was non-verbal, and three was paraverbal. Verbal is what you say. I mean, you could get it from a transcript. If you wanna ask the question like, "How does somebody come across as competent and smart?"

22:37 It's pretty much mostly what they say. But if you ask the question, how about warmth? Like, how do I come across as somebody who really is caring and wants to engage with the audience because, well, I care about you. Well, that's not what you say. That's actually what you're doing while you are talking. So it's very non-verbal. It's your facial expressions and your head tilt and your body language, what you're doing with your hands. So that's a second element of communication, not what you're saying. Body language is the non-verbal. And then finally, paraverbal. Paraverbal, as you know, Matt, are like all of the ways of how you say, like the, the tone, the intonation, the pitch, the prosody.

23:22 So that actually determines how competent you seem, how warm you seem, um, and even, you know, how upstanding you seem. So if you ask me about communicating, there is something to be said about exactly what you're saying. There's something to be said about what you're doing and expressing with your body and your face while you're saying it. And there is all of the ways that your voice is enunciating what you're saying, the paraverbal dimension. So those are the three dimensions that we identified, and the take-home is that it's not just what you say. Right. How you say it, uh, matters a tremendous amount. So it's our verbal, our non-verbal, and the paraverbal cues that matter a lot.

24:06 Angela, you have taught us so many things. Thank you so much. From grit to the power of the situation we find ourselves in and the ability to make change, and then some advice on how to be effective in your communication. Thank you for your time, and thank you for the work that you do. Matt, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I look forward to the next one. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. I am so glad I finally got to chat with Angela. She provided so many useful tidbits and advice. The thing I'm really taking away is the power of the situation. We can control our physical and social situation to help us improve in the ways we want. To learn more about the many aspects of communication we discussed, please check out our back catalog of episodes at fastersmarter.io.

24:53 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. I am super excited to share that we've supercharged our English language learning content at fastersmarter.io. You'll find episode-specific content to help those of you who are looking to hone and improve your English.