309. Stretch, Don't Stress: How Great Communication Makes Better Leaders

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Matt Abrahams: When there's a gap
between our intention and our impact, we

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diminish others and our communication.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I am super excited to
chat with my friend Liz Wiseman.

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Liz is a researcher, executive
advisor, and CEO of the Wiseman Group.

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Liz has written a number of best-selling
books, including Multipliers: How the

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Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter,
Impact Players, and Rookie Smarts.

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Liz's work has had a profound
impact on leaders around the globe.

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Welcome, Liz.

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I am so excited to have our conversation,
to take what we talk about when

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we walk around that lake and bring
it here so everybody can hear.

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Thanks for joining.

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Liz Wiseman: Well, it's always a
pleasure, and I love our talks.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

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Shall we get started?

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Liz Wiseman: Let's go.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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For listeners who don't know your
work, what's the core idea behind

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being a multiplier or a diminisher,
and how did you stumble onto

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these patterns in the first place?

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Liz Wiseman: Well, let's start
with how I stumbled onto it.

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You know, right out of college, my
first job, I joined Oracle, and I found

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myself in this sea of brilliant people.

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Everyone was so smart, so amazing,
and I noticed as those people got

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put into management roles, a lot of
them were really smart, but no one

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else got to be smart around them.

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It was almost this, like, exclusive
intelligence that they were, were

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quick, they were sharp, they had great
ideas, but other people held back

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around them, or other people had to
sort of recede to make room for them

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and their intelligence and capability.

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I ended up calling these
leaders diminishers.

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Matt Abrahams: Okay.

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Liz Wiseman: I also noticed other
people who were equally brilliant.

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People around them were smart,
capable, sharp, took ownership,

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stepped up, had ideas.

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Like, somehow their intelligence
was more of a tool than a weapon.

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And I watched this dynamic
for years, fascinated.

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Like, why is it that some leaders seem
to amplify intelligence while others

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are sucking the intelligence and life
and creativity and energy out of a room?

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And it wasn't until I left Oracle
and saw this pattern with other

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leaders that I decided this
deserved, like, some academic study.

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Matt Abrahams: Right, and
you dove right into it.

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Help us understand what are some
of the behaviors and cues and clues

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that lead to being a diminisher?

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Many people do it accidentally.

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They don't say, "Today I'm gonna go,
you know, make sure that everybody

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pays attention to me," and they don't
get to say that what they wanna say.

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What are some of the cues and
clues that we can pay attention to?

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Liz Wiseman: One of the clues that I pay
attention to is the talk to listen ratio.

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You know, we find that diminishers
tend to be know-it-alls.

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They operate in directives.

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They're telling people what to do,
whereas the multiplier leaders are

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asking people, "What should we do?

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What can we do?" Like, "What do
you think is possible?" Diminishers

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tend to be, um, a bit of tyrants.

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They're creating an environment that is
tense, full of stress, and we know what

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happens to people's ability to think
and reason and solve hard problems when

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they're experiencing that kind of stress.

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Um, whereas multipliers
create an environment that's

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not tense, it's intense.

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And it's not necessarily a
lackadaisical environment, but it's

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not like, "Hey, knock yourself out.

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Do whatever you want." It's like,
"I'm gonna give you space to think,

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to take risks, to make mistakes.

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I'm gonna give you time to
experiment, but in exchange for

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that, I expect your best thinking.

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I expect your best work.

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And, like, I'm gonna give you space,
but don't you dare give me anything

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other than your best thinking.

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Matt Abrahams: It sounds to me like, uh,
some of this, and, and I know you and I

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both know Amy Edmondson, but psychological
safety, setting up an environment where

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people can feel safe but challenged to
do their work, is what a multiplier does.

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Liz Wiseman: Absolutely.

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And at the core of this is trust.

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What's at the core of trust
is psychological safety.

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And I think what I found with
these multiplier leaders really

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gets at the heart of Amy's work.

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And one of the things I think if Amy were
here, she would say sometimes her work

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is misunderstood, and that people think,
"Oh, psychological safety is like, well,

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I can be ragged. I could say anything,
like, 'Ooh, don't infringe on things that

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make me stressed.'" And what Amy would
say is that the best leaders create that

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kind of safety, but that alone isn't
enough for people to do great work.

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They also create stretch.

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And I think it's in this combination of
comfort, like, I feel comfortable here.

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I belong here, I can be myself here.

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But then challenge of like, okay, now
we expect you to do really great work.

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Like, it's in this magic of creating
both safety and stretch that people

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do great work, and that's really the
environment that great leaders create.

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Matt Abrahams: I love this tension, uh,
and focus on stress versus stretch, and

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you wanna create the opportunities for
stretch, not necessarily for stress.

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It strikes me that tone plays a role here.

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Because I was thinking, okay,
what's something I could look in

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my own behavior to make sure I'm
multiplying, not diminishing?

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And asking questions seems to be
a reasonable thing to look at,

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but I can ask a question with a
tone that can be very diminishing.

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I can do the right action, ask a
question, but the way in which I do it

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can actually be seen as diminishing,
and I find that really interesting.

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Have you looked at not just the
verbal actions, the messages, but

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how people deliver those messages as,
as helping multiply versus diminish?

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Liz Wiseman: We see that,
like, the currency of a

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multiplier leader is inquiry.

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Maybe what's at the heart
of that is curiosity.

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And it's asking people questions, um,
not to placate them, not to humor them.

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It's asking because you
want to know what they know.

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It's being curious that what you
don't know that somebody else

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may know may be more interesting
than what you already know.

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And which is what draws you
into the head of other people.

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But we all know a question can be used
as a weapon or it can be used as a tool.

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You know, we haven't really studied
what that tone is, but I think

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it's one that everyone knows.

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Like you can tell if someone is
weaponizing a question versus

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is it an honest question.

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And I think maybe the litmus
test for yourself as a leader

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is, why am I asking this?

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Am I asking this to show off what I know?

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Or to catch someone not knowing, or
am I asking this because I really

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want to know what that person
knows, the insight that they bring?

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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So a question is a tool to get inside
somebody else's head versus to put

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them in a particular position, and I
think that's really helpful for people.

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Uh, I love that advice.

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Ask yourself why are
you asking the question?

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Speaking of questions, if you were
to give advice to a leader, what's

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one question that a leader could ask,
say, at the end of a one-on-one or an

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all-hands meeting, that could serve
as a multiplier and not a diminisher?

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What, what might a question sound like?

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Liz Wiseman: If I had one that you might
wanna ask regularly, uh, as a leader is,

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"What do you need from me to be able to
do great work?" I think it's easy for

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people to get into, like, "Here's what
I want from my leader." But, like, a

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leader's job is to create the environment
where people can do great work.

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And then have the tone and the posture
of, "We expect you to do great work here."

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I think asking, like, "What is it that I
can do that would create the possibility

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for you to do your best thinking and your
best work?" is something that I think

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a leader should be asking regularly.

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I studied multiplier leaders.

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I can tell you, "Here's
what on average, they do.

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Here's what they tend to do,
but everyone's different.

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Everyone brings a
different leadership style.

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Everyone on your team
is a little different.

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And so I think taking this posture of,
what does this person need from me?

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I think when we focus on not what people
want from us as their leaders, but what

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they need from us, it puts us in the right
posture to enable people to do great work.

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Matt Abrahams: This notion of being
in service of the people you lead and

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trying to enable them through providing
them support, really important.

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And, and a question that helps get
that across could be very valuable.

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Liz Wiseman: I wanna, um, add to that.

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There was something that, uh, my
boss at Oracle said, Phil Wilson.

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He said something once that
has stuck with me forever.

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He said, "Your employees are the
customers of your leadership." I think

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it's what allowed me to do this work
was to see that, like, leadership is

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truly in the eyes of the beholder.

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If you wanna know what good leadership
looks like, you don't ask great

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leaders 'cause they may or may not know
what they're doing that's effective.

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You ask the people who work for them.

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And people need different things
from us at different times.

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Matt Abrahams: Envisioning leadership
as serving customers, those that report

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to you, is a really interesting frame,
and I, I'm huge on checking the frames

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that we use in our communication,
and I really like that one.

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I'm gonna add that to my
stockpile of, of frames.

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Thank you.

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I think taking a customer service
perspective on all of our relationships

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can make a big difference.

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You know, if I see myself as a
teacher, my students are my customers.

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I, I teach them very differently.

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I'd approach it very differently than
if, hey, they just show up and I'm

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here to bestow knowledge on them.

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Uh, it really changes that perspective.

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I appreciate that.

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You've also studied and written
about impact players at work.

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Uh, what is an impact player, and what
do they do differently from others?

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Liz Wiseman: Well, impact players
are, like, in short, they're

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the difference makers at work.

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They're the people who
are doing standout work.

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And not only are they the people who
are making plays and making plays

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consistently, they're people who make
the entire teams around them better.

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They raise the level of play.

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They raise the aspiration on the team.

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And in short, what we found that
the impact players do differently

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than ordinary contributors, like
rock solid performers, what they

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do differently is they handle
everyday ambiguity differently.

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Matt Abrahams: Oh, interesting.

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Tell me more about that.

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Liz Wiseman: Yeah, they handle, um,
what have become, I think, the perennial

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challenges of the modern workplace,
like messy problems, problems without

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clear owners, unclear roles where you
can't quite figure out who's leading

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this effort, unforeseen obstacles,
something very inconvenient beyond

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your control, changing targets where
the market's changing, preferences are

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changing, the environment, policy is
changing, and then unrelenting demands

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where the workload is increasing faster
than the resources to do the work.

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If you leave one organization
because of all of this inconvenience,

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you're gonna find it somewhere else.

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And we find that the impact players
approach that everyday ambiguity

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really differently than other people.

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When the problems are messy,
while other people are doing

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their job, they're figuring out
the job that needs to get done.

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Matt Abrahams: Oh, I
like that distinction.

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Liz Wiseman: When roles are unclear, while
other people are waiting for direction,

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they're stepping up and taking charge.

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You know, they realize you
don't have to be in charge to

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take charge of a situation.

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Um, when unforeseen obstacle drops
in your path, while other people are

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escalating up to management, they're
moving things across the finish line.

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When, um, targets are changing and
other people are avoiding change,

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they're adapting, adjusting, pivoting.

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And when the workload is heavy
and hard, while other people are

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adding to the burden, they're,
they're making work light.

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Like, they're the kind of people
who just make hard work easier.

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And while other people are seeing
threat in all of that ambiguity and

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uncertainty, they're the ones that
are finding the opportunity in it.

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This is a mess.

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This is an opportunity for
us to do something different.

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Matt Abrahams: I hear
several things there.

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So one is mindset, drive, uh, as well, and
this notion of tolerance for ambiguity.

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You know, when Rob Siegel was here
talking about the needs of, uh, system

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leaders, it, it really is the ability to,
you don't have to thrive in ambiguity,

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but at least be able to, to manage it.

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You work with lots of leaders,
lots of organizations.

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If you were to give one bit of advice that
you would like people, leaders, or just

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average employees to stop doing in their
behavior or their communication that gets

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in the way of all of these things you're
talking about, is there one thing that

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you would advise people to stop doing?

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Liz Wiseman: Okay, this is a
little conceptual but your intent

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is translating to other people.

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And, uh, I wanna go back to this idea
about leaders who have a diminishing

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effect versus a multiplying effect,
and one of the, there were two things

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that were startling in this research.

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One was that the diminishing leaders
were getting less than half of people's

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available intelligence, their knowledge,
their insights, their creativity.

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I witnessed this in the workplace, and
I assumed that these multiplier leaders

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were getting more, like, I don't know,
I think 20% was my hypothesis on this.

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It's a 2X difference between what these
multiplier leaders are getting and

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these diminishing leaders are getting.

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But the thing that was even
more surprising is that most

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diminishing was accidental.

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It wasn't coming from tyrannical,
narcissistic, bully, the

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decision-makers, the micromanagers.

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A lot of it comes from that, but the
majority is coming from really, really

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well-intended leaders who are trying
to be good leaders, trying to do the

00:13:58.824 --> 00:14:03.784
right thing, are just brimming with
positive intent, but their impact

00:14:03.784 --> 00:14:05.524
is different than their intention.

00:14:05.773 --> 00:14:09.634
Coming to, to talk with you today
made me realize that there's a really

00:14:09.634 --> 00:14:12.013
important communication angle behind this.

00:14:12.054 --> 00:14:16.233
Intent doesn't translate to impact,
particularly when it comes to leaders.

00:14:16.243 --> 00:14:20.833
Like, there are so many ways we
accidentally diminish by being like

00:14:20.863 --> 00:14:26.113
idea fountains, by being always on,
by being rescuers, protectors, rapid

00:14:26.113 --> 00:14:30.103
responders, pacesetters, and they're
all done with really good intent.

00:14:30.624 --> 00:14:34.873
But the intention alone
doesn't get the right result.

00:14:34.894 --> 00:14:36.354
Like, let me take one of those.

00:14:37.183 --> 00:14:37.984
The rescuer.

00:14:38.124 --> 00:14:43.083
This is when a leader sees someone
struggling, perhaps in a meeting, and,

00:14:43.433 --> 00:14:46.593
like, you see someone struggling with
a hard problem, or they got asked a

00:14:46.594 --> 00:14:51.064
difficult question, and your, like,
great big heart kicks in, and you wanna

00:14:51.073 --> 00:14:56.383
help that person, and you think you
are sending the message of, "I got you.

00:14:56.723 --> 00:14:57.804
I care about you.

00:14:57.853 --> 00:14:59.313
I want you to be successful.

00:14:59.333 --> 00:15:00.184
I'm here for you.

00:15:00.493 --> 00:15:04.443
I've got your back." But what's
messaged in our behavior when you

00:15:04.443 --> 00:15:07.853
step in and rescue someone who's
struggling with a difficult problem

00:15:08.683 --> 00:15:10.223
or got asked a difficult question?

00:15:10.263 --> 00:15:14.073
What's transmitted in our behavior
is a message that says…?

00:15:14.953 --> 00:15:16.013
Matt Abrahams: You're not capable.

00:15:16.383 --> 00:15:16.613
Liz Wiseman: Yeah.

00:15:16.973 --> 00:15:18.073
I don't think you can do it.

00:15:18.633 --> 00:15:19.713
I don't trust you.

00:15:20.223 --> 00:15:25.703
And trust is really at the core of what
good leadership is, like, to trust other

00:15:25.703 --> 00:15:27.723
people and then to be trusted by them.

00:15:27.983 --> 00:15:34.893
So I think part of the art of being a
good leader is understanding that intent

00:15:34.893 --> 00:15:39.820
alone is not enough, that you really
have to work in the realm of how your

00:15:39.880 --> 00:15:42.600
actions are impacting other people.

00:15:42.620 --> 00:15:45.610
Align that intent with, with impact.

00:15:45.610 --> 00:15:47.280
So what should people stop doing?

00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:49.390
Assuming that good intent is enough.

00:15:50.230 --> 00:15:54.390
Because it's as diminishing
as the tyrannical bully.

00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:57.850
Matt Abrahams: One of the things I like
so much about the work you do is not only

00:15:57.850 --> 00:16:01.659
do you give specific advice, you help
categorize and help people understand,

00:16:01.660 --> 00:16:05.320
but you have data behind it, and there
are a lot of people who do some of the

00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:06.879
stuff you do that don't have the data.

00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.629
And it's amazing to me how
diminishing can actually impact or

00:16:11.629 --> 00:16:13.190
not impact the work that happens.

00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:17.149
As you were going through some
of these accidental diminishing

00:16:17.150 --> 00:16:19.419
behaviors, I, I saw many in myself.

00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.069
I often have lots of brainstorming
and think I'm helping people.

00:16:22.069 --> 00:16:23.030
Well, maybe I'm not.

00:16:23.060 --> 00:16:23.999
Maybe I'm overwhelming.

00:16:23.999 --> 00:16:25.140
Maybe I'm overshadowing.

00:16:25.970 --> 00:16:32.499
How do we uncover the well-intended
acts that could be diminishing?

00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:34.139
Is it through having a coach?

00:16:34.619 --> 00:16:36.249
Is it through reflection?

00:16:36.449 --> 00:16:38.649
How do we learn that about ourselves?

00:16:38.650 --> 00:16:41.490
I mean, I had a couple epiphanies
just listening to that answer.

00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:44.639
So not everybody has access to
you in the moment like this.

00:16:45.140 --> 00:16:47.769
What can we do so we can figure
that out so we're not doing it?

00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:49.639
Because as you said,
it's, it's not intent.

00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:50.419
That's not the intent.

00:16:50.429 --> 00:16:51.820
The intent is actually the opposite.

00:16:51.979 --> 00:16:53.219
Liz Wiseman: You've
listed a bunch of them.

00:16:53.229 --> 00:16:56.829
One is sometimes just hearing the
names, and there were a few others,

00:16:56.839 --> 00:17:02.460
like perfectionist, strategist,
um, optimist, which is one of my

00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:04.020
accidental diminisher tendencies.

00:17:04.030 --> 00:17:08.380
Sometimes just hearing that and hearing
how, like, oh, yeah, with the optimism,

00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:13.779
I'm intending to send the message that
I think we can do this, but what I'm

00:17:13.780 --> 00:17:17.410
really overlooking is how hard this is
and the struggle it takes to get there.

00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:21.189
Um, so sometimes just
hearing the names is enough.

00:17:21.239 --> 00:17:24.279
Uh, sometimes it requires a conversation.

00:17:25.219 --> 00:17:27.449
Here's what I don't recommend anyone do.

00:17:28.030 --> 00:17:31.409
Like, sit people down and say, "Hey, am
I a diminisher?" Or even asking, "Am I

00:17:31.409 --> 00:17:35.529
an accidental diminisher?" Like, here's
a question that you could ask, and

00:17:35.530 --> 00:17:39.459
Matt, this might be one of the questions
that you could ask over and over again.

00:17:40.069 --> 00:17:43.529
What am I doing with really good
intentions that might be shutting

00:17:43.530 --> 00:17:46.939
down good ideas, good thinking?

00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:50.599
Like, what am I doing with the best
of intentions that is making it

00:17:50.639 --> 00:17:53.559
difficult for you to do your best work?

00:17:53.749 --> 00:17:55.300
Matt Abrahams: I love that question.

00:17:55.659 --> 00:17:56.970
Liz Wiseman: People can answer that.

00:17:58.158 --> 00:18:01.828
Because it's easy for me to talk with you
about like, "Matt, you're doing this thing

00:18:01.838 --> 00:18:06.727
that I know you're trying to help me, but
actually, like, let me suffer and figure

00:18:06.727 --> 00:18:11.147
this out. I will figure it out on my own,
but I appreciate the offer." It's really

00:18:11.147 --> 00:18:16.138
hard to give feedback to your boss on
things that seem, um, a little malintent.

00:18:16.217 --> 00:18:18.257
Matt Abrahams: I love it because
the question is framed from a place

00:18:18.257 --> 00:18:21.137
of you're trying to help, and I'm
actually reflecting some of the

00:18:21.148 --> 00:18:25.477
best, uh, best critical feedback
I've ever received was in that vein.

00:18:25.737 --> 00:18:29.348
It was like, "You're sharing too many
ideas. It's overwhelming." You know,

00:18:29.377 --> 00:18:30.507
and that was really helpful for me.

00:18:30.757 --> 00:18:31.088
Thank you.

00:18:31.117 --> 00:18:32.957
Many things you've said
have been really helpful.

00:18:32.967 --> 00:18:35.497
I, I'm gonna take that
question and, and leverage it.

00:18:36.617 --> 00:18:39.777
We'll be right back to finish our
conversation, but first, a quick

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And now, back to our conversation.

00:19:47.790 --> 00:19:49.399
You know, Liz, I knew
this was gonna be great.

00:19:49.670 --> 00:19:52.490
Before we end, I like to ask
everybody three questions.

00:19:52.490 --> 00:19:54.629
One I make up just for you,
and two I've been asking

00:19:54.629 --> 00:19:55.909
everybody for a long, long time.

00:19:55.909 --> 00:19:56.500
Are you up for that?

00:19:56.639 --> 00:19:57.200
Liz Wiseman: Let's do it.

00:19:57.290 --> 00:19:59.920
Matt Abrahams: I know you're currently
doing some really interesting research as

00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:01.439
you prepare to bring it into the world.

00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.889
Is there anything you can share about
your, your current focus that, that we

00:20:05.889 --> 00:20:09.549
can, one, maybe get intrigued by, but
is there a nugget or two you can share?

00:20:09.639 --> 00:20:09.879
Liz Wiseman: Yeah.

00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:14.759
I am looking at the making of a
great leader, which means I'm also

00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.769
looking at the making of a bad leader.

00:20:17.169 --> 00:20:21.759
And what I'm trying to understand
is how do our formative experiences

00:20:22.409 --> 00:20:26.000
in the workplace and in life, how
does it shape the way that we lead?

00:20:26.009 --> 00:20:29.919
How does it shape the way we show
up, and what are the patterns that

00:20:29.929 --> 00:20:32.389
the best leaders have experienced?

00:20:32.389 --> 00:20:36.809
And what I can share is that there
are some very distinct windows of

00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:41.190
influence, periods in our work life
where a little bit of good leadership

00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:46.720
goes a long way and a little bit of bad
leadership goes a really long way as well.

00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:51.989
Like, where we create these imprints
that stay with us for a long time

00:20:51.999 --> 00:20:57.769
and lurk in our heads and tell
us how to operate, how to lead.

00:20:57.790 --> 00:21:01.319
Um, a few of those are, um, our
first job and our first boss

00:21:01.709 --> 00:21:03.849
has huge imprinting quality.

00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:08.000
New assignments, new terrain, anywhere
where we're, like, doubting ourselves

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:09.489
and we don't know what we're doing.

00:21:09.690 --> 00:21:11.489
Mistakes, like victories and defeat.

00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:15.539
The thrill of victory and the agony
of defeat creates these really,

00:21:15.540 --> 00:21:17.420
um, formative kinds of experiences.

00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:19.389
And then, of course, our upbringing.

00:21:20.790 --> 00:21:27.170
And one of the things that I'm finding in
this research is that the best leaders,

00:21:27.340 --> 00:21:30.480
when we look at this pool of, like,
people who are really great leaders today,

00:21:31.090 --> 00:21:32.730
there's a few things they have in common.

00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:35.370
They have a history of adversity.

00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:41.450
Early in life or early in career, like,
resolved adversity, and they don't

00:21:41.469 --> 00:21:43.340
all have a history of great bosses.

00:21:43.820 --> 00:21:47.630
Like, just having great bosses
doesn't make you a great leader.

00:21:47.959 --> 00:21:49.440
Matt Abrahams: I love that
you're studying the development

00:21:49.449 --> 00:21:50.979
of leaders, both good and bad.

00:21:51.469 --> 00:21:55.039
I can think about my trajectory and
some of those key points along the way.

00:21:55.349 --> 00:21:58.689
Now, as somebody who used to run learning
and development organizations before

00:21:58.689 --> 00:22:02.499
I came back to academia, how valuable
would this be to, to understand this

00:22:02.500 --> 00:22:05.619
so as you're bringing on new employees,
increasing your bench strength, to really

00:22:05.619 --> 00:22:10.510
understand where those key inflection
points are and how you can help people

00:22:10.510 --> 00:22:11.879
have a more positive experience?

00:22:11.879 --> 00:22:12.669
I think that's wonderful.

00:22:12.669 --> 00:22:13.729
I look forward to that work.

00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:15.429
Let me ask question number two.

00:22:15.529 --> 00:22:17.990
Who's a communicator
that you admire, and why?

00:22:18.439 --> 00:22:20.489
Liz Wiseman: I wanted
to mention Kim Scott.

00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:20.980
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:22:21.430 --> 00:22:22.889
Kim's been on the show and is a friend.

00:22:22.889 --> 00:22:23.739
Liz Wiseman: Radical Candor.

00:22:23.770 --> 00:22:28.119
There's something I've noticed that
she does regularly, um, and it was

00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:32.070
a real, I, I think, a real factor in
the success she had at Google, and

00:22:32.139 --> 00:22:37.139
she, she mentions it in her book, is
that Kim presents opposing opinions.

00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:40.650
Like, when she would, and I've,
uh, she's a friend of mine.

00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.929
I see her do this, is, like, when she
would go and be presenting a case for we

00:22:45.930 --> 00:22:50.080
need to increase headcount here or funding
here, go this direction, and she would

00:22:50.080 --> 00:22:51.999
present it to, like, Larry and Sergey.

00:22:52.029 --> 00:22:56.219
She would always say, "But let me tell
you why we might not want to do that."

00:22:56.659 --> 00:22:58.589
And I think it's an amazing practice.

00:22:58.589 --> 00:23:01.599
If you wanna increase the impact
of your communication, don't just

00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:04.639
advocate for a single position.

00:23:04.949 --> 00:23:07.519
Like, be willing to talk
about the downsides, the

00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:09.149
underbelly, the risks of that.

00:23:09.149 --> 00:23:11.670
I think it massively
increases your impact.

00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:14.149
So that's just one example
and someone I admire.

00:23:14.309 --> 00:23:16.349
Matt Abrahams: I've noticed that,
too, that she, she definitely brings

00:23:16.349 --> 00:23:20.319
up the opposing view, and, and
that, that really is very helpful.

00:23:20.790 --> 00:23:24.059
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:26.239
successful communication recipe?

00:23:26.549 --> 00:23:29.219
Liz Wiseman: Well, I think good
communication starts with respect,

00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:34.129
and not necessarily interpersonal
respect, respect for people's time.

00:23:34.419 --> 00:23:37.419
I took a writing course early
on in my career, and I remember

00:23:37.419 --> 00:23:41.739
what it said is, "The cost of
writing is the cost of reading."

00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:42.959
Matt Abrahams: Oh, interesting.

00:23:42.970 --> 00:23:43.140
Yeah.

00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.160
Liz Wiseman: So we often think
of communication as, like,

00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.049
what does it take to create it?

00:23:47.690 --> 00:23:52.859
But the real cost of communication
is what it takes to consume it, and I

00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:57.159
think when we start communicating with
respect for people's time and energy

00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.209
they're gonna put into the receiving
of it, I think we do a better job.

00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:02.730
Maybe next from there would be empathy.

00:24:03.694 --> 00:24:09.043
To understand that the person or people
with whom you're communicating have had

00:24:09.043 --> 00:24:14.684
a different experience with that issue
or topic than you have, that they've

00:24:14.714 --> 00:24:18.244
got a different perspective on it, that
maybe your point of view is not the

00:24:18.244 --> 00:24:22.834
only point of view in this situation, I
think allows us to communicate better.

00:24:23.743 --> 00:24:26.714
And then clarity, like knowing your point.

00:24:27.874 --> 00:24:30.543
Matt Abrahams: Being clear
and concise, having empathy,

00:24:30.704 --> 00:24:34.134
appreciating others come to your
content differently, very important.

00:24:34.764 --> 00:24:40.393
I really like this idea of thinking
about the time and energy that those

00:24:40.403 --> 00:24:42.313
receiving our messages have to take.

00:24:42.514 --> 00:24:45.564
How can we maximize it for
them instead of for us?

00:24:46.714 --> 00:24:51.883
So much, uh, that you have shared
with us that has really helped us.

00:24:51.944 --> 00:24:56.504
Uh, you truly were a multiplier today
for all of us to learn and grow, and,

00:24:56.504 --> 00:25:00.923
uh, it's lovely to learn from you
in this format versus the walking

00:25:00.924 --> 00:25:02.403
around the lake that we typically do.

00:25:02.694 --> 00:25:05.424
Thank you so much for being here, Liz,
and I look forward to your new work.

00:25:05.964 --> 00:25:06.713
Liz Wiseman: It's a pleasure, Matt.

00:25:07.214 --> 00:25:09.203
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:25:09.204 --> 00:25:10.863
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:25:11.204 --> 00:25:14.224
To learn more about leadership and being
your best at work, please listen to

00:25:14.224 --> 00:25:17.873
episode 147 and 212 with Whitney Johnson.

00:25:18.533 --> 00:25:23.603
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:25:23.664 --> 00:25:25.184
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:25:25.323 --> 00:25:27.543
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.

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