323. Turn Up the Heat: Make Conflict More Constructive

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Matt Abrahams: Adding warmth to heat
can actually help your conflicts.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm looking forward to once
again speaking with Priya Parker.

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Priya is best known for her
work, The Art of Gathering:

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How We Meet and Why It Matters.

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She's an expert facilitator
and strategic advisor.

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She's worked with many organizations
and individuals worldwide to

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reimagine how we come together in both
personal and professional settings.

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Her latest book is The Art of Fighting:
The Transformative Power of Conflict.

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Priya, thank you so much
for joining me again.

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Our audience really enjoyed our
previous conversation in episode 174.

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Thanks for being back.

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Priya Parker: Thank you
so much for having me.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Uh, shall we get started?

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Priya Parker: Let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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Uh, when you were last with us, you
introduced the concept of heat in

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communication and relationships, and
I know you've talked about healthy

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heat as a transformative tool.

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Can you help share what
you mean by healthy heat?

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Priya Parker: In so many workplaces and
groups and friendships, when conflict

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arises, we tend to oscillate between
two places, what I call unhealthy

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peace, which is conflict avoidance,
pretending everything's fine, nothing

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to see here, folks, and unhealthy
conflict, domination, escalation, abuse.

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And as a conflict resolution facilitator,
I know that there's actually a third

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place, which is a very important place
to be, which is what I call healthy heat.

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And healthy heat is the ability to hold
friction or tension well between people

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with care long enough for something
to be generative or clarifying.

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Matt Abrahams: So help me understand, what
are some of the ways of generating healthy

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heat without burning down the house?

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And you use a great example in
your book, The Art of Fighting,

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that really hit home for me.

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You talk about, uh, pineapple and
ham pizza, which is a perpetual

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debate my wife and I had.

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How do you generate healthy
heat in those moments?

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And, and you mentioned banter, which
is something that really fascinates me.

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Priya Parker: I think of banter as
the elixir of pro-social conflict.

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Part of our, our fear of approaching
conflict, and I have it as

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well, is that we are afraid that
it's gonna burn the house down.

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And part of what I began to see in teams,
in restaurants, in organizations and

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clubs that were able to have relevant
conversations that scared the people

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in them, but were helpful to their
performance and breakthrough, was that

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they added warmth to heat, and they
began to see that there are so many

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different ways to actually approach
conversations and, and have actually

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energy and debate and controversy that
also injects fun, and humor, and energy.

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One of the things I began to see in
multiple different workplaces was that

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when people normalized or were invited
into banter, like literally bantering

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with each other, whether it was part
of the culture or whether they actually

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designed for it, low stakes arguing helped
them prepare for high stakes arguing.

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And I was in a room in a tech company
that was bringing together their

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leadership, uh, across a global
organization, across a lot of departments.

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They knew that they were at
a crossroads as a company.

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They needed to really have serious
conversations in which the conversations

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themselves, the arguments, the debates,
would affect the outcome of the

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direction they wanted to go as a company.

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So, they needed, like so many teams, to be
able to actually have good conversation.

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Any time they'd sort of approach a more
difficult or, or high-stakes conversation,

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people would kind of lean out.

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And so, uh, on the first day, 500
people in this ballroom, and the

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vice president of the company came
out on stage and said, "You know,

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I don't really want to start
in a heavy place today, but

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we got a lot of work to do.

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And so, we're gonna start with five
really important but controversial

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conversations." And he said, "So, the
first one I want to really put to you

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all as leaders of this firm are, is,"
and he put up a slide behind him, and

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it said, "Pineapple on pizza, yes or
no?" People were like, "What the heck?"

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And then he said, "Okay, turn to
three people around you and debate for

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15 minutes." People started turning
to each other and started debating.

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And in the group that I was in,
somebody was like, "Yum, it's amazing.

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Salty and sweet." And someone else
was like, "This is disgusting."

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And someone else was like, "Well,
I'm Italian, and this is offensive

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to my tradition," you know?

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But all of a sudden, people
started laughing and chatting,

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and the room changed.

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And then he came back and he said, "Okay,
let's hear it out." And then he began

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to go from the small group to the large
group where people started yelling out

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pros and cons for pineapple on pizza.

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And this group of people, who let alone
didn't know each other, had the social

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permission to argue about something
that didn't matter, but that they felt

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strongly about, was actually injecting
warmth into the room to help them practice

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actually disagreeing with one another.

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And immediately, it basically gives
people humor, banter, and social

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permission to actually be, I don't
want to use the word antagonistic, but

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actually turn to each other and have
a different form of interaction that's

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related to controversy, but infuses fun.

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And those are two elements, two
ingredients in communication and in

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an interpersonal, uh, interaction
that often doesn't go together.

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But when it does, it begins to help
you approach the heat to realize, oh,

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there's so many ways we can do this.

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Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea
of adding warmth to heat, which plays on

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lots of words, but really taps into some
foundational principles in communication

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by bringing connection and levity, and
in service of practicing, how we're

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going to interact with each other.

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So it's a way of warming up and
practicing and showing respect in

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something that doesn't really matter
that can be really close to people.

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If you listen to Think Fast, Talk
Smart, you know I believe communication

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is something we can all get better
at, and getting better takes more

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than simply learning new ideas.

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It takes practice.

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That's why I love teaching Communication
Essentials for Work and Life

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through Stanford Continuing Studies.

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We explore the communication challenges
that show up in everyday life, how

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to be more persuasive, tell better
stories, strengthen your presence,

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navigate difficult conversations, and
connect with others more effectively.

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Along the way, you'll hear from
expert guest speakers, learn

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practical techniques, and most
importantly, have opportunities

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to put those ideas into practice.

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My goal is simple, to help you become
a more confident, clear, and effective

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communicator at work and in your life.

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If that sounds like something you'd like
to work on, I'd love to have you join me.

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Learn more and sign up at
continuingstudies.stanford.edu/tfts.

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That's
continuingstudies.stanford.edu/tfts.

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I'd like to move to right in the
moment when conflict is generating.

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Uh, there's a difference
between identifying a dispute

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and actually addressing it.

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Uh, when we're caught in a, in
a spontaneous moment where a

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disagreement just flares up, what's
the best way to address that?

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Is there a conversational framework for
naming it honestly without immediately

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triggering the person and getting
into a, a full-on conflict right away?

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Priya Parker: One of the things I did
with The Art of Fighting was I began to

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look at places that actually fight well.

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One of the types of teams I looked
at were restaurants, in part because

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restaurants have inbuilt 110 micro
conflicts every night of service.

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And I looked at this
restaurant called Canlis.

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Part of what they do as a team
is they assume that there will be

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disagreement between and conflict
between every employee at some point

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or another, and they find ways to
ritualize it, to normalize it, and to

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be able to have a place to diagnose
what's happening, and then also have a

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second moment to go and deal with it.

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If the team is sort of snapping at each
other while preparing the evening's

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meals or cleaning up after close and,
and someone can hear something's, you

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know, starting to really bubble between
two employees, you may actually hear

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one of the owners or the chef or any
leader of the organization yell on

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the floor, "Take it to the hooch!" And
the staff involved in the exchange, as

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irritated as they might be, drop what
they're doing and file into a secret

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room they built in the restaurant for
these purposes, specifically created to

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relieve tension in the heat of battle.

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And you sneak downstairs in this
funny little room in the basement of

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the basement, and it's time to talk.

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How do you decide what to do
in the heat of the moment?

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Really, teams and organizations that
are, have group intelligence are starting

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to find ways to normalize, ritualize,
and give both tools and places and

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skills for, for people to be able to
actually have the argument and not rely

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so deeply on the, you know, on putting
it on the weight of the individual.

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In fact, one of the things
I actually have it with me.

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Canlis has come out
with an employee manual.

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It's the first time I've ever seen
an employee manual that doesn't

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look at if conflict arises,
you have to go to HR, right?

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Or if conflict arises, you have to
go to alternative dispute resolution.

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They actually have conflict as one of
the core ways their team builds trust.

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They have a three-page manual on what to
actually do in the moment, and the first

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thing they say is, "Assume the best in
others and look for their true north."

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Matt Abrahams: Wow.

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That's so powerful to, to build
it into the way you do business.

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I appreciate the idea of normalizing
it, that conflict is natural and normal,

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and when you bring people together
who are good at what they do and

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passionate, conflict is going to arise.

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The ritualizing part
I'm, I'm curious about.

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I can see a leader saying, "Hey, we,
we support conflict that's healthy,

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that's respectful." What are some
other very specific actionable tools

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to help ritualize it so it becomes
part of what we do in our daily lives?

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Priya Parker: I mean, the first is,
uh, talking about conflict, shifting

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our mental model of, of conflict
as something that's dysfunctional

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to something that's functional,
meaning that it serves a purpose.

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And that it's not, not
all conflict is good.

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Some conflict can be toxic, some
conflict can be deeply unhealthy.

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But first is normalizing and saying
there are certain conversations that we

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actually have to have in which there's
going to be disagreement, there's

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going to be passion, in part because
these questions affect us, right?

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Conflict heat is relevance.

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And so where and how do we begin to
hold these conversations with care?

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I worked with a tech team, um, a few years
ago where they, they realized that every

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time at their weekly leadership meeting,
every time a really kind of thorny issue

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would come up that really was related
to kind of who they were as a company and

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the core direction they were gonna go,
either they'd run out of time or it'd be

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so scary, someone would inevitably sort
of turn it into a logistical conversation.

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Like, it's a communication move, like,
"Oh, well, we don't have time to do that,"

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or, "Well, actually we shouldn't even
talk about that 'cause we don't have the

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bandwidth to actually implement that."

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The leader of the organization, the CEO,
came to me and basically said, "We, these

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are the conversations we deeply need
to have, but it feels actually scary

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to have them in our regular leadership
meeting. Can you help us design a

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meeting?" So we came up with a solution,
uh, to create a new type of meeting

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specifically for these larger, thornier
questions, and we called it a grapple.

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And the company's leader sent
out a document describing the

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purpose of the new meeting.

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The purpose was, our job as a
leadership team is to discuss, debate,

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and quote, "grapple" with large
strategic issues that are critical

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to us achieving our ambitious goals.

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And then they listed three factors
that would trigger a grapple.

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One, a high level of
uncertainty in the outcome.

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Two, a broad range of opinions
among the leadership team on

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how we should handle the issue.

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And three, a significant level
of risk to our long-term success.

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What this team was doing was they
were raising the group intelligence

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level of all of the leaders to begin
to listen differently, to say, "What

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are the conversations that rise to a
grapple?" And then they laid out four

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principles that would guide them through
these hot-topic discussions and, and

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outlined it in an internal document with
me, which I have permission to share.

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So one, we create an inclusive way of
grappling so that diverse viewpoints

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are heard, understood, and considered.

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We create a space for synchronous
discussion and debate.

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We make a call on the issue at hand and
commit as a team within a given timeframe.

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And we live into the decision with
new behaviors that we practice and

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hold each other accountable to.

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And so they did two things here,
which having the intelligence to,

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it's almost like an early warning
system, to know what are the triggers

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for the type of conversation that
requires a different type of meeting.

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And then the second, what are the
principles of the infrastructure of

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that meeting to make it a success?

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Matt Abrahams: So much
value in that response.

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The first and foremost, the idea that
heat is all about relevance, and that

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you can set up almost a early detection
system, train people to, to look for it.

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I like the, the three criteria
you used, uh, uncertainty, uh,

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broad base of different opinions,
and there's some kind of threat.

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So as you're listening, as you're
engaged in the conversation, you're,

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you're searching out signals of those.

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And if they, if they exist, then in
essence you say it's time to, to grapple.

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And a grapple, uh, has really
specific steps to it, uh, and people

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commit to that, uh, to those steps.

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So in essence, you're giving people a
framework through which to have that

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discussion, and you're naming it.

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One thing that I found really
interesting in your book as you're

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talking about conflict is that you
say conflict can be a sign that

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the group should evolve or disband.

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So it's actually a signal for movement.

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How can we use the friction of a fight
to diagnose whether a team or community

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needs to evolve or it simply has run
its course and we should disband?

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What are we looking for there?

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Priya Parker: I structured The
Art of Fighting into the natural

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cycle groups go through when
they have an existential fight.

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And so the types of fights I'm really
interested in, in part 'cause I'm a

00:15:25.470 --> 00:15:29.370
facilitator and these are the fights
that I'm brought in to, uh, to help

00:15:29.439 --> 00:15:32.119
groups hold, aren't all types of fights.

00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:34.549
They're not fights for dominance.

00:15:34.549 --> 00:15:37.840
They're not fights for
extremely bad behavior.

00:15:37.849 --> 00:15:41.799
They're not fights for what temperature
the AC should be on in the building.

00:15:41.849 --> 00:15:45.610
They're a specific type of fight, which
is what I call an existential fight,

00:15:45.610 --> 00:15:49.200
which is when a majority of a group has
to ask or grapple with the question,

00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:53.319
"Well, who are we? And how do we do
this? How do we do things around here?"

00:15:53.949 --> 00:15:54.120
Right?

00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.140
What kind of church are we?

00:15:55.569 --> 00:15:57.360
What kind of football team are we?

00:15:57.370 --> 00:16:01.360
The other thing is groups can't actually
form or, or evolve without a fight.

00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.730
So often a group starts because of
a need, or a company starts because

00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:08.590
of a need in the marketplace,
or a need in the, in the public.

00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:13.850
But for groups to actually
evolve, fights trigger the

00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:15.689
conversations we've been avoiding.

00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:23.599
And part of what happens when a group
has to face a certain conversation is

00:16:23.619 --> 00:16:28.380
all of the questions that often lay below
the surface come to a head, and this

00:16:28.409 --> 00:16:30.769
often happens at moments of gatherings.

00:16:31.779 --> 00:16:35.689
Gatherings so often that are the
forcing mechanisms to have the

00:16:35.689 --> 00:16:40.449
fights that make us decide aloud
who we are and who we're gonna be.

00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:44.359
Matt Abrahams: And it is, at some
point, a decision that you have to

00:16:44.359 --> 00:16:46.779
make if we wanna continue being or not.

00:16:47.289 --> 00:16:54.829
The point that evolution in groups,
in teams, is predicated on tension,

00:16:54.829 --> 00:16:59.389
on fighting, on, on challenge, is
one that's really, uh, insightful.

00:16:59.410 --> 00:17:02.969
Because as a leader, as a manager, as
a participant in a group or a team,

00:17:03.550 --> 00:17:08.509
rather than avoiding it, I should be
seeking it out, or at least trying

00:17:08.510 --> 00:17:11.410
to figure out where those tension
points are to help the group grow.

00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:13.590
Priya Parker: Or to, yeah,
or to be curious about it.

00:17:13.879 --> 00:17:18.240
And so part of the invitation to have
how to become an artful fighter is to

00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.939
start noticing when are the conversations
happening that are more likely gonna

00:17:22.940 --> 00:17:28.789
trigger existential conflict, and how to
get both curious about it and good at it.

00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.710
Matt Abrahams: And you mentioned earlier
that notion of we don't want just

00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:39.179
logistics to, to bowl over potential
rich conversation around conflict.

00:17:40.494 --> 00:17:45.033
If someone listening or watching
right now wants to initiate a conflict

00:17:45.033 --> 00:17:49.214
that they've been avoiding, what
might be the best opening sentence

00:17:49.214 --> 00:17:53.174
or way to get that conversation
going that will lead to hopefully

00:17:53.374 --> 00:17:55.373
good heat and productive outcomes?

00:17:55.934 --> 00:18:00.444
Priya Parker: I first would go through a
checklist in oneself, which is, uh, what

00:18:00.444 --> 00:18:03.373
is my purpose in having this conversation?

00:18:03.373 --> 00:18:04.503
What is my intention?

00:18:04.823 --> 00:18:09.253
Do I think that by saying something
I'm able to alter a situation?

00:18:09.693 --> 00:18:15.883
Could I meaningfully engage
without saying something, right?

00:18:15.883 --> 00:18:19.254
So some of these are diagnostic tools
to get better at understanding when

00:18:19.254 --> 00:18:20.674
to face something and when not to.

00:18:20.974 --> 00:18:23.613
Chapter three of The Art of Fighting
is actually when not to face.

00:18:24.363 --> 00:18:29.313
And so a huge part of what I'm saying
is not just, you know, dive into

00:18:29.313 --> 00:18:30.873
all conflict everywhere, always.

00:18:30.873 --> 00:18:33.393
Like, I'm not saying necessarily
fight more, I'm saying fight better.

00:18:34.193 --> 00:18:37.903
And so the first is to diagnose what
is the conversation I want to have?

00:18:38.053 --> 00:18:40.023
How do I increase the
likelihood that it goes well?

00:18:40.593 --> 00:18:45.493
Part of what the skill is in one's
own self is figuring out what is the

00:18:45.494 --> 00:18:49.553
need and then how do you find the
right languaging, because 90% of the

00:18:49.553 --> 00:18:53.133
success of a fight or a gathering
happens before anyone has entered.

00:18:53.543 --> 00:18:56.884
And so part of what you're trying to do
in that situation is making sure that

00:18:56.884 --> 00:19:00.343
you're setting yourself up or setting
other people up to have the right fight.

00:19:00.972 --> 00:19:04.012
Matt Abrahams: The correction you
gave me of, don't go into it thinking

00:19:04.012 --> 00:19:05.282
I'm going to have a conflict.

00:19:05.312 --> 00:19:07.002
Think it's a conversation.

00:19:07.362 --> 00:19:11.152
And then understand what it is you're
hoping to get out of it and what you need.

00:19:11.602 --> 00:19:16.612
And I really like the idea of how
you frame it and what you do in

00:19:16.612 --> 00:19:18.732
advance sets you up for success.

00:19:18.821 --> 00:19:22.682
Many of us are so fixated on the
actual event, we don't think about

00:19:22.682 --> 00:19:25.461
what we can do in advance to help
ourselves get ready, and your Art

00:19:25.461 --> 00:19:29.271
of Gathering was a masterclass
for me in thinking that through.

00:19:30.592 --> 00:19:34.231
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00:20:25.942 --> 00:20:28.661
Well, Priya, I knew this was gonna
be great because we've had previous

00:20:28.662 --> 00:20:33.391
conversations, and your work is so
meaningful and helpful to, to everyone.

00:20:33.741 --> 00:20:35.801
I'd like to end, as we always
do, with three questions.

00:20:35.802 --> 00:20:38.211
One I'm going to make up just
for you, and the other two you

00:20:38.211 --> 00:20:39.341
had a chance to answer before.

00:20:39.342 --> 00:20:41.671
I'm gonna see if they're, they're a
little different now that you've spent

00:20:41.671 --> 00:20:45.532
some time thinking about conflict and,
and healthy heat in a different way.

00:20:45.951 --> 00:20:47.201
Um, you up for that?

00:20:47.791 --> 00:20:48.501
Priya Parker: I'm up for it.

00:20:48.662 --> 00:20:50.011
Matt Abrahams: All right, first question.

00:20:50.351 --> 00:20:53.961
In The Art of Gathering, you talked
about the container of a meeting

00:20:53.961 --> 00:20:57.681
or event and how important the
physical and virtual space can be in

00:20:57.711 --> 00:21:00.991
influencing how communication unfolds.

00:21:01.311 --> 00:21:05.511
When it comes to fighting, talk to
me about the importance of virtual

00:21:05.512 --> 00:21:07.752
communication and how we can leverage it.

00:21:08.161 --> 00:21:10.941
Priya Parker: The physical
environment deeply affects the

00:21:10.942 --> 00:21:14.141
room and the Zoom and the conflict.

00:21:14.662 --> 00:21:20.351
And so a couple of, of tips on virtual
life is, first of all, sometimes Zoom

00:21:20.371 --> 00:21:25.852
actually really helps conversations
because Zoom is an inherent equalizer

00:21:26.071 --> 00:21:27.411
if you know how to use it well.

00:21:27.511 --> 00:21:32.262
I work with a multigenerational family
that could never, one of the, one of the

00:21:32.262 --> 00:21:35.621
blockages to their, to their fight was
that they couldn't agree on where to meet.

00:21:36.041 --> 00:21:36.841
Who's hosting?

00:21:36.861 --> 00:21:37.541
Who's paying?

00:21:37.742 --> 00:21:38.801
How much is an airplane?

00:21:38.802 --> 00:21:40.702
What does it actually mean
to gather in that spot?

00:21:40.981 --> 00:21:44.171
And so our breakthrough actually
happened because all four siblings could

00:21:44.181 --> 00:21:47.570
Zoom in from their own home, right?

00:21:47.570 --> 00:21:50.280
And so don't assume all Zooms are bad.

00:21:51.050 --> 00:21:54.090
Think about the tools that you
have and how do you create an

00:21:54.090 --> 00:21:58.060
ecosystem that allows you to get the
conversations that you want given the,

00:21:58.460 --> 00:21:59.639
given the infrastructure you have.

00:22:00.619 --> 00:22:03.389
Matt Abrahams: So really thinking
through how the virtual can,

00:22:03.409 --> 00:22:04.859
can be a benefit can help.

00:22:05.419 --> 00:22:09.829
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:22:10.389 --> 00:22:14.389
Priya Parker: I deeply
admire Mayor Zohran Mamdani.

00:22:15.679 --> 00:22:19.659
I think he's an extraordinary
communicator, both from,

00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:22.889
um, his embodiment, his
physicality as a communicator.

00:22:22.889 --> 00:22:29.029
He, uh, he wants to be where he
is, which I think is actually

00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:30.429
a really powerful force.

00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:32.929
You know, when sometimes you see
people communicating and they may

00:22:32.929 --> 00:22:35.389
be saying the perfect speech, but
actually you can tell, like, they're

00:22:35.389 --> 00:22:36.790
not, their heart isn't really in it.

00:22:37.139 --> 00:22:39.270
Um, I think he's a very embodied leader.

00:22:39.310 --> 00:22:43.759
Um, and, and I think he's a brilliant
communicator in terms of being able

00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:49.849
to actually talk about issues across
communities that are high-wire acts and

00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:54.979
always come from what his values are and
inviting people into a world in which

00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:56.840
everyone gets to experience those values.

00:22:57.640 --> 00:22:58.250
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:01.509
So I like this idea of being
an embodied communicator.

00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.649
Be there and, and help others see
that you really want to be there.

00:23:06.269 --> 00:23:10.110
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:23:10.110 --> 00:23:12.649
successful communication recipe?

00:23:13.100 --> 00:23:17.470
Priya Parker: Clarity of
purpose, clarity of audience,

00:23:19.926 --> 00:23:21.176
and specificity.

00:23:21.985 --> 00:23:24.926
Matt Abrahams: Clarity of purpose
and audience makes a lot of sense.

00:23:24.956 --> 00:23:28.326
You've talked a lot about that both in
your book, The Art of Gathering and The

00:23:28.326 --> 00:23:34.436
Art of Fighting, and then making sure that
you, you have a, a clear outcome in mind.

00:23:34.945 --> 00:23:35.735
Thank you, Priya.

00:23:35.925 --> 00:23:39.495
I knew from our last meeting that this
was going to be a great conversation.

00:23:39.835 --> 00:23:45.035
Thank you for helping us to hold heat and
really see the value that conversations

00:23:45.036 --> 00:23:49.675
that involve conflict can have in
our organizations and in our lives.

00:23:49.866 --> 00:23:51.055
Priya Parker: Thank you
so much for having me.

00:23:51.926 --> 00:23:54.136
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:23:54.136 --> 00:23:56.135
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:23:56.426 --> 00:23:58.965
To learn more from Priya
Parker, check out episode 174.

00:23:58.965 --> 00:23:59.035
It was great again learning from Priya.

00:23:59.035 --> 00:23:59.385
The one

00:24:02.206 --> 00:24:07.616
thing I'm taking away that really stood
out to me was that you can add warmth,

00:24:07.825 --> 00:24:13.235
connection, levity to your conversations
that will help you be better at

00:24:13.235 --> 00:24:18.175
solving the more tangled and difficult
conversations and conflict that we have.

00:24:18.595 --> 00:24:23.785
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:24:24.036 --> 00:24:28.035
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:24:28.445 --> 00:24:31.495
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:31.996 --> 00:24:36.595
Be sure to check out fastersmarter.io
for deep-dive videos, English language

00:24:36.615 --> 00:24:38.905
learning content, and our newsletter.