313. Hold the Headline: How Curiosity Cuts Through Complexity

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: Curiosity and chemistry
are critical to successful communication.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm excited to
speak with Nayeema Raza.

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Nayeema is a journalist,
producer, and creator.

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She was the co-host and executive producer
of the hit podcast On with Kara Swisher.

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She now hosts her own podcast,
Smart Girl, Dumb Questions.

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Her work has appeared in The New
York Times and New York Magazine, and

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she's produced documentary films that
bridge complex geopolitical issues

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with accessible human narratives.

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Nayeema, thank you for being
here, and welcome to the

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Spotify Studios in New York.

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It's awesome to be with you and
continue the conversations we've had

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on the phone and on email, in person.

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Nayeema Raza: Thank you
so much for having me.

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I love your show, and I'm so
thrilled to be part of it.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Nayeema Raza: Yes, let's jump in.

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Matt Abrahams: So if you look
at your career from management

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consultant to journalist to
podcast, uh, you've changed a lot.

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Nayeema Raza: Yes, and you
missed documentary filmmaking.

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Matt Abrahams: I did.

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I did.

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That's true.

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That's true, and now TED speaker.

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Nayeema Raza: Yes, and for
people listening, I'm not old.

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I just want you to know
that I'm young still.

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Matt Abrahams: That's right.

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You're very young and very hip.

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Uh, in all of those roles actually, you've
had to synthesize complex information

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and make it accessible to people.

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What kind of tools and frameworks
do you use to help make that

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content easily understood?

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Nayeema Raza: So much of it
has to do with how I grew up.

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I grew up in Indonesia and Sudan.

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I'm Pakistani, born in DC.

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My entire life I've been
what's called, the technical

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term, is a third culture kid.

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Um, in environments where I didn't
necessarily always speak the language,

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didn't always, and so I learned to speak
body language and read what was happening,

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and I think sometimes we get caught up
in the details of a moment, but when I'm

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making a film or a podcast or telling
a story or making a slide, I think part

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of the gift of how I grew up is being
able to focus on that big picture and

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think about what the message is that's
coming across, both as I'm receiving

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it and as I'm kind of projecting it.

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Matt Abrahams: One of the things
I have found so useful in the way

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you communicate and break things
down is you make it relevant.

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So you connect it to the people who are
listening, which I think really helps.

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Do you do that consciously, or is
that just something that happens?

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Nayeema Raza: I think that it's,
it's something that I've become

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conscious of and I do increasingly.

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So I think that, that my kind of
superpower as a communicator is

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the ability to bring some levity
to topics of gravity and to bring

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some gravity to topics of levity.

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And what I mean by that is, you know,
if you're talking about the world

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today, politics, war, et cetera,
oh my God, it can be such a bummer.

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And you just want to have a little
bit of sense that the world continues,

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that ,we and so I think infusing some
comedy into that and some levity into

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that while, you know, not discounting
the, the gravity of the situation.

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One of, I think, the, uh, best
ways that I've learned to condense

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information is in the business of
headline writing which is a very

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fraught enterprise these these days.

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But you want to write a headline
when you're writing at The New

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York Times or elsewhere, and we
have a lot of conversation about

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what the headline should be.

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You want it to grab people's
attention, but you want it

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to be faithful to the story.

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You, I don't think, want it
to be polarizing, but you do

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want it to be provocative.

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And so I think as I started doing a
lot of headline writing, I decided that

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the best questions I've ever been asked
in my life are nine words or less.

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Matt Abrahams: Interesting.

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Nayeema Raza: And I think that's the same,
because if you think about conversation

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or you have, someone's cutting through,
like right now and blah, blah, blah,

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you're hearing this, then I say, "How
do we solve that?" That's what you hear.

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That's what we digest.

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So I think there's something about
this punchy, direct question that can

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really help cut through the noise.

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Sometimes you're asking that to somebody
'cause you're interviewing them.

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Sometimes you're asking that to
yourself to get yourself to be a

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better communicator and understander
and interpreter of what's going on.

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Matt Abrahams: I really like this
idea of thinking about your important

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communication as a headline.

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Now, most of us aren't writing
headlines for news outlets.

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But we do write emails with subject lines.

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We do name our meetings.

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We do put titles on slides, and that
advice, I think, applies there as well.

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And if, and keeping, I'm gonna try
the nine-word rule and see if, if we

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can, if that applies in the work I do,
but I, I absolutely like that idea.

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Nayeema Raza: I think it's
particularly useful for questions.

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Particularly useful for questions.

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Matt Abrahams: Yes.

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It's thinking about the emotion as
well as the content and breaking it

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down, and those are all, I think, the
right ingredients for helping make

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complex information more accessible.

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And, and I appreciate that you
do that and continue to do that.

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We'll be right back to
finish our conversation.

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But first, a quick word
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And now, back to our conversation.

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A lot of your roles have been roles as
translator in some ways, translating

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technical information, uh, translating
for the audience for, for a performer,

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and you've, you've been in the position
often of being a translator for Gen Z and

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millennials, for folks of my generation.

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Do you, do you like that role?

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Do you have certain things
you bring to that role?

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Nayeema Raza: I mean, I think
every type of communication is

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a moment of translation as well.

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I mean, I think now that I'm in
the host seat and kind of star

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of my own show I still think of
myself as being the advocate.

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Even the title, Smart Girl, Dumb
Questions, it's around the kind

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of confidence to be curious.

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And I, I think about that a lot, Matt,
with your work, because you write a

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lot about confidence and the ability
to communicate from that position.

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But I think we have conflated
confidence and certainty a little bit.

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Matt Abrahams: Ah.

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Tell me more about that.

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Nayeema Raza: You wanna be confident
enough that there is some space left in

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your opinion to consider how other people
think to consider new information, and to

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digest that and, and kind of update your
own worldview with that new information.

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Not so confident in your opinion that
you cannot hear anything else, that you

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shut down the kind of first, and so I, I
think, you know, I, like I said in the TED

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Talk I just gave, it's like the dumbest
thing you can be an, is a know-it-all,

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and I have seen that play out.

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Matt Abrahams: You make a really
useful distinction there between

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confidence we have in our ability
to communicate and confidence in

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the things we are communicating.

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And I absolutely agree that that
confidence in what we're saying,

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there needs to be some room
for creativity, for openness.

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Because if we're, if we're sure
of ourselves so much that we don't

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bring in other opinions, you know,
then we are being, as you said,

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dumb and being a know-it-all.

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So, uh, I'm, I'm curious, you certainly
are confident in your opinions and ideas.

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Do you still get nervous
when you interview people

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and when you're interacting?

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And if so, how do you manage that?

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Nayeema Raza: No, I, of course I do.

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Do you?

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Matt Abrahams: Of course.

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Yeah.

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Nayeema Raza: Yes.

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I mean, I think it's, you're nervous
because anytime you film or make

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something, and I learned this as a
documentary filmmaker when I was doing

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this, this, uh, film on the band Sublime
at Tribeca in 2019, like when you're in

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the edit room and you're, and you're,
you ask the editor, "Well, why don't

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we have that?" And it's like, "Well,
because you didn't get it while you were

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producing the…" So it's that scarcity
of time when you're in conversation

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with someone that puts the pressure on.

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It's not who they are.

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I actually don't, I actually, I think
I give more reverence on my show

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when I interview two 11-year-olds
or two doormen than when I interview

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Neil deGrasse Tyson or Mark Cuban.

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But I get nervous about how little
time there is and whether I can

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do everything that I wanna do.

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That's what.

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Matt Abrahams: I, I feel that same way
when, especially in this capacity, is

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people are gifting you their time and
I wanna, I, I get nervous that I'm

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not going to make it a good experience
for them or get as much out of it.

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Nayeema Raza: But I try, I think it's,
uh, you're doing an amazing, amazing job.

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I feel very much like this is
worthwhile use of time and hope everyone

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listening and watching does too.

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I, I think, um- people
really wanna be understood.

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Part of the gift that we have as
hosts is helping understand people.

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Sometimes people don't necessarily
fully understand themselves, and you're

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kind of unpacking and translating that.

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But I, I think if you enter in
the conversation in good faith and

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you're really trying to understand
someone, then the conversation is

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often, if not always, a success.

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Matt Abrahams: And it, it's that approach
that I think can help calm some of those

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nerves, knowing that I'm here to really
listen, to allow the person to be heard.

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It, when you get out of yourself and
realize you're in service of other

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people it can really reduce that anxiety.

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Nayeema Raza: By the way, every time I
stop recording, I'm always like, "That

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was terrible." Doesn't matter what I do.

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Do you have that, or do you have
more confidence on the other end?

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Matt Abrahams: Interesting.

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I, I do have that, I don't
think that was terrible.

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I think, "That could've been better."

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Nayeema Raza: Yes.

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That's, that's actually what I should say.

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I don't think it was terrible.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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It's like, I'm just, "Oh, that, that, that
could've been better." And, and not on

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the guest part, but it's usually my part.

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It's like, "I could've done this," or,
"I should've done that." Yeah, I, uh,

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I have a friend who talks about how we
shouldn't should all over ourselves.

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And, and I, I unfortunately still do.

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Nayeema Raza: It's just your
ability to be in the moment is,

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is just difficult for all of us.

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Matt Abrahams: No, absolutely.

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But when you can get in that present
moment when you can be in service

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of others, I think the, the anxiety
abates, the confidence builds.

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Nayeema Raza: But that's where I
think preparation and the right

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amount of preparation is so
important because I have found that

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I'm, I do really well with improv.

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I host, uh, a debate sometimes

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at the Comedy Cellar in New York
City for Open to Debate on NPR.

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And I love that environment because
when you have, you know, an intellectual

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threesome, uh, with two people on stage
fighting with each other or sparring

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with each other and you're moderating,
you never know what's gonna happen.

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Matt Abrahams: I like the idea of an
intellectual throuple, but okay, yes.

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Nayeema Raza: Exactly,
intellectual throuple.

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So I think I like to be prepared
enough that I have a map, and then

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absolutely prepared to throw it away.

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And I find when I'm overprepared and I
have a script, it really doesn't serve.

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If, if it's like 30 questions,
it doesn't serve me.

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If it's 10, it's perfect.

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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Absolutely.

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I, uh, the, a lot of the work I've
done around spontaneous speaking

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is preparing to be spontaneous.

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There's a whole bunch of stuff we
can do, as you're talking about.

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And there's that sweet spot where
it's just enough to give you the

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confidence and the directionality,
but not so much that it's scripted.

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And, and finding that, everybody has
to find their own sweet spot for that.

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But once you do, it really helps.

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You left your roles at The New York Times
and Vox, which are two traditional media

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examples, uh, to strike out on your own.

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Uh, I'm curious to get your thoughts
as a creator, uh, in what's different,

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uh, doing the work you do as an
individual creator wor- versus working

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for a more traditional media outlet?

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Nayeema Raza: Yeah.

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A lot more risk, a lot more reward.

00:11:47.368 --> 00:11:49.848
That's the simple, uh, headline of it.

00:11:50.438 --> 00:11:51.388
Matt Abrahams: And a lot of work.

00:11:51.488 --> 00:11:52.268
Nayeema Raza: A lot of work.

00:11:52.268 --> 00:11:55.828
I think the hardest thing has been
you care so much about your own thing.

00:11:55.828 --> 00:11:57.547
I cared so much about
other people's things.

00:11:57.548 --> 00:11:59.048
I cared about Sway at The New York Times.

00:11:59.048 --> 00:12:02.407
I cared about On with Kara Swisher,
and I, and I cared about Mixed Signals,

00:12:02.407 --> 00:12:06.197
which I co-hosted at Semafor with
Ben Smith, um, my former colleague

00:12:06.208 --> 00:12:07.608
from The New York Times as well.

00:12:07.608 --> 00:12:14.037
But it's a gift to be able to put
all that care into something that you

00:12:14.038 --> 00:12:17.207
want to build and you think deserves
to be in the world, and then the

00:12:17.207 --> 00:12:20.158
challenge becomes finding other people
who care about it as much as you do.

00:12:20.817 --> 00:12:25.268
Um, I have a great team, so I have
found that in people like Desta,

00:12:25.268 --> 00:12:28.778
my producer, uh, Melissa, Johnny
Simon, who engineers our content.

00:12:28.788 --> 00:12:31.947
I mean, I, I found people who
really care, uh, about it.

00:12:31.957 --> 00:12:34.028
So much so that sometimes I'll be
like, "Can we get this out early?"

00:12:34.028 --> 00:12:36.837
And they're like, "It's not gonna be
as good." And I appreciate that they,

00:12:36.837 --> 00:12:37.617
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, that feedback.

00:12:37.637 --> 00:12:39.147
Nayeema Raza: That
feedback loop or, you know.

00:12:39.637 --> 00:12:47.497
Um, but I think, okay, this is a very
hard question for me because I also

00:12:47.497 --> 00:12:50.467
worry about a world in which we're
all just broadcasting and projecting,

00:12:50.548 --> 00:12:51.728
and everyone has their own channels.

00:12:51.728 --> 00:12:53.517
And everyone has to be a
creator, and everyone, and

00:12:53.528 --> 00:12:54.737
that's what we're being told now.

00:12:54.737 --> 00:12:57.338
It's like, well, what does eight
billion channels look like, and

00:12:57.447 --> 00:12:58.627
who the heck is left to watch?

00:12:58.647 --> 00:13:01.898
No wonder everything matters but
only in the first second, you know?

00:13:02.338 --> 00:13:04.138
Um, so I think about it a lot.

00:13:04.138 --> 00:13:08.088
I think I only did this show because
I felt I had something to say or,

00:13:08.088 --> 00:13:09.907
or a, not even something to say.

00:13:09.907 --> 00:13:13.458
I felt I had a tone that I
didn't find in the world.

00:13:13.937 --> 00:13:14.607
Matt Abrahams: Oh, interesting.

00:13:14.738 --> 00:13:17.468
Nayeema Raza: I, I felt that I found
people who were very angry, who were

00:13:17.468 --> 00:13:22.537
very certain, who were very unplugged,
disinterested, but I wasn't finding

00:13:22.537 --> 00:13:26.158
that intersection of, okay, I wanna
be informed and, about the world and

00:13:26.158 --> 00:13:29.917
thoughtful about not the day-to-day
news, but these big ideas, capitalism,

00:13:29.918 --> 00:13:33.497
hyperindependence, individualization,
the shifting world order.

00:13:33.787 --> 00:13:36.197
And I wanna talk about it in ways
that really impact my own life, and

00:13:36.197 --> 00:13:37.487
I wanna do it with a sense of comedy.

00:13:37.488 --> 00:13:39.908
And the best thing I could find
was comedians who would do this.

00:13:40.428 --> 00:13:46.787
But you know, I think there is a, a
missing middle of can you be much more

00:13:46.787 --> 00:13:50.167
entertaining than legacy media, much
more factual than the average kind of

00:13:50.177 --> 00:13:57.897
podcast bro or chick, and, you know,
more useful than yesterday's news?

00:13:59.082 --> 00:14:03.552
Matt Abrahams: The, the purpose-driven
approach is, stands out in, in what you

00:14:03.552 --> 00:14:06.982
just said, is, is it's not just about
getting information out, it's having

00:14:06.982 --> 00:14:08.601
a purpose behind that information.

00:14:09.002 --> 00:14:13.211
I have worked very hard on thinking
about the purpose of this show, and

00:14:13.212 --> 00:14:14.861
you've clearly thought about yours.

00:14:14.861 --> 00:14:19.892
And I think part of the advice I would
give to anybody who starts down this

00:14:19.902 --> 00:14:23.091
path of being a creator is really
know your purpose, really figure

00:14:23.092 --> 00:14:27.021
out what's motivating you 'cause
it's hard work, and that purpose can

00:14:27.022 --> 00:14:28.342
really get you through some of that.

00:14:28.632 --> 00:14:32.372
I want to give you an opportunity to talk
about your TED Talk that just came out.

00:14:32.411 --> 00:14:35.951
It was, it's, it's very
brief, but very effective.

00:14:36.691 --> 00:14:40.651
Talk to us about the, the idea of
being curious in the modern age.

00:14:40.911 --> 00:14:43.281
Nayeema Raza: One, it was such
a honor and privilege to be

00:14:43.281 --> 00:14:44.251
invited to give a TED Talk.

00:14:44.252 --> 00:14:45.271
I wasn't expecting it.

00:14:45.281 --> 00:14:48.521
I'd done something at the Comedy
Cellar, and, um, some of the

00:14:48.522 --> 00:14:52.371
editors at TED and Ignite were
there and asked me to do this talk.

00:14:53.311 --> 00:14:57.841
I wanted to give a voice to two
11-year-olds I'd interviewed on my show.

00:14:58.191 --> 00:15:02.451
And I had asked them, "How does life
on screens feel different to real

00:15:02.452 --> 00:15:04.871
life?" Because I keep seeing kids,
I don't have kids yet, but I see

00:15:04.871 --> 00:15:08.851
kids at airports, et cetera, just on
FaceTime not speaking to each other.

00:15:08.981 --> 00:15:09.502
Have you seen this?

00:15:09.541 --> 00:15:09.881
Matt Abrahams: Yes.

00:15:11.182 --> 00:15:11.202
Nayeema Raza: Yeah.

00:15:11.352 --> 00:15:15.511
So I asked them why that happens and
how that feels different to real life.

00:15:16.422 --> 00:15:21.122
And Sophie, then 11, now 12, says
"You know, it just feels so much

00:15:21.122 --> 00:15:25.341
more together when you're with them
on FaceTime." That blew my mind.

00:15:25.611 --> 00:15:26.562
And I said, "What do you mean?

00:15:26.572 --> 00:15:29.852
Like, even more than real life?"
And Sophie responds, "Yeah,

00:15:29.852 --> 00:15:31.542
because when you're on FaceTime,
you're doing stuff together.

00:15:31.542 --> 00:15:32.271
You're playing together.

00:15:32.272 --> 00:15:33.111
You're doing homework together.

00:15:33.111 --> 00:15:34.762
You're doing Roblox together.

00:15:35.031 --> 00:15:37.521
But nowadays when you're in real
life, everyone's just on their phone."

00:15:38.562 --> 00:15:38.972
Matt Abrahams: Right.

00:15:39.072 --> 00:15:44.021
Nayeema Raza: And I thought that
was such an insight that our ability

00:15:44.021 --> 00:15:48.951
to be present in a physical world
has been completely distracted by

00:15:48.951 --> 00:15:53.152
these devices, and our ability to
be present on them, because they're

00:15:53.182 --> 00:15:55.732
full screen experiences, is gone up.

00:15:56.081 --> 00:15:59.221
And that just made me think a lot
about what else we are disconnected

00:15:59.232 --> 00:16:00.422
from, our own curiosities.

00:16:00.462 --> 00:16:01.721
Because we don't sit and wonder.

00:16:01.721 --> 00:16:04.742
We just ask the question and then
know the answer, and then project

00:16:04.742 --> 00:16:06.021
that answer out in conversation.

00:16:06.021 --> 00:16:10.091
And so that's really where the
talk started from, and, and it

00:16:10.092 --> 00:16:12.281
kind of takes a personal turn
of how I learned those lessons.

00:16:12.311 --> 00:16:18.531
But it was a gift to be able to share
a little bit about how you, um, think

00:16:18.531 --> 00:16:22.081
and the world works, and also to be
able to share those kids' perspectives,

00:16:22.471 --> 00:16:24.692
which really caused a gasp in the room.

00:16:24.812 --> 00:16:25.142
Matt Abrahams: Right.

00:16:25.162 --> 00:16:29.922
And when I, when I watched the talk and
heard it, and I'd actually seen your

00:16:29.922 --> 00:16:32.411
interview with them, uh, it, it really is.

00:16:32.441 --> 00:16:37.261
You, you shake your head and go, "What?
Wait, hold on." But in that moment,

00:16:37.771 --> 00:16:41.631
it makes you curious, and, and you do
a really nice job in the talk of not

00:16:41.631 --> 00:16:45.762
only advocating for the curiosities
that you do, but the way in which

00:16:45.762 --> 00:16:48.191
you deliver it makes us curious.

00:16:48.231 --> 00:16:51.761
And it's a nice example, and I encourage
everybody to, to watch and listen

00:16:51.761 --> 00:16:57.561
to it, of how delivery reinforces
the message in a very positive way.

00:16:58.331 --> 00:16:58.851
Nayeema Raza: 'Cause it's playful.

00:16:59.191 --> 00:17:03.582
Matt Abrahams: Because it's playful, and
it's curious, and it, we see ourselves in

00:17:03.582 --> 00:17:07.982
many of the things that you mention, but
we don't feel bad about ourselves for it.

00:17:07.991 --> 00:17:10.331
We say, "Oh, okay, that's who I
am, but I can do this other thing."

00:17:10.331 --> 00:17:13.351
So it's empowering in a way, and I
think a lot of that is not just the

00:17:13.351 --> 00:17:15.191
wordplay, but how you deliver it.

00:17:15.682 --> 00:17:19.662
And, and making content accessible in that
way, not just making sure we understand

00:17:19.662 --> 00:17:23.491
it, but making us feel okay about it,
I, I thought it was really well done.

00:17:24.581 --> 00:17:25.281
You, you're a great question asker.

00:17:25.281 --> 00:17:26.061
Nayeema Raza: I'm gonna
ask you a question.

00:17:26.191 --> 00:17:27.102
Matt Abrahams: Ask me a question.

00:17:27.191 --> 00:17:27.891
Nayeema Raza: Oh my gosh.

00:17:27.892 --> 00:17:28.971
Matt Abrahams: I may or may
not answer it, but go ahead.

00:17:29.062 --> 00:17:29.692
Nayeema Raza: Let me ask you.

00:17:30.232 --> 00:17:30.742
Okay.

00:17:31.072 --> 00:17:35.711
I feel as a millennial, life
is being co-opted by Gen Z now.

00:17:36.171 --> 00:17:38.151
We love them, and Gen Alpha increasingly.

00:17:38.471 --> 00:17:43.331
And I'm curious how you think
about staying relevant as you age.

00:17:44.302 --> 00:17:44.562
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:17:44.562 --> 00:17:49.091
So I think a lot about aging and
relevance, uh, as I'm getting older

00:17:49.091 --> 00:17:53.022
and, and as I'm seeing the impact
I can have and what it means.

00:17:54.182 --> 00:17:57.171
I think it's all about, to your
point, curiosity and listening.

00:17:57.581 --> 00:18:00.032
I, I have an amazing job.

00:18:00.052 --> 00:18:06.151
I get to work with mid-20 folks who are
going to just change the world in amazing

00:18:06.151 --> 00:18:09.722
ways, and that helps me feel excited.

00:18:09.952 --> 00:18:11.461
It helps me feel relevant.

00:18:11.831 --> 00:18:16.801
And a lot of what I do is listen, I'm
curious, and ask questions, and those

00:18:16.811 --> 00:18:18.961
help me feel like I'm adding value.

00:18:18.962 --> 00:18:23.432
When, when I get the opportunity to,
to work with my students or, or younger

00:18:23.432 --> 00:18:28.101
people and, and really listen, synthesize,
and ask questions, that really brings

00:18:28.101 --> 00:18:30.451
joy to me and hopefully relevance.

00:18:30.732 --> 00:18:32.231
Nayeema Raza: Do you feel
like we're losing wisdom?

00:18:33.792 --> 00:18:35.182
Matt Abrahams: I think wisdom is changing.

00:18:35.442 --> 00:18:39.611
I think, uh, the, the fact that so
much information is now available

00:18:39.611 --> 00:18:45.452
that the, wisdom and access to
information are very connected, but

00:18:45.522 --> 00:18:50.292
lived experience, intuition, gut
feeling, that's not captured in an

00:18:50.292 --> 00:18:56.981
LLM, and I, I fear that people are,
are just not curious or seeking wisdom.

00:18:56.982 --> 00:18:58.372
They're just seeking information.

00:18:58.372 --> 00:18:59.822
So are we losing it?

00:18:59.822 --> 00:19:00.801
No, I still think it's there.

00:19:00.801 --> 00:19:03.691
I just don't think, I fear that
people aren't searching for it.

00:19:04.232 --> 00:19:07.732
Nayeema Raza: That is one of
the things I, I worry about.

00:19:07.732 --> 00:19:10.481
In our culture, I think we're
very interested in what's new,

00:19:10.492 --> 00:19:11.731
what's fresh, what's cool.

00:19:12.191 --> 00:19:16.421
And I think that, look, I, I don't think,
I'm not advocating for a gerontocracy.

00:19:16.562 --> 00:19:20.021
I think that, you know, people who
are, you know, boomers and beyond

00:19:20.041 --> 00:19:23.151
probably don't need to be kind of
controlling Capitol Hill anymore.

00:19:23.501 --> 00:19:29.561
But I do think that there's a wisdom
of that experience that is not being

00:19:29.631 --> 00:19:33.171
translated as much in our current
world, and I sometimes worry about that.

00:19:33.172 --> 00:19:33.361
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:19:33.441 --> 00:19:37.651
I, you know, to me, wisdom, there is,
wisdom is associated with experience,

00:19:37.652 --> 00:19:40.011
so the older you are, the, in
theory, the more wisdom you have.

00:19:40.231 --> 00:19:43.451
But I have met very wise
younger people as well.

00:19:43.712 --> 00:19:43.892
Nayeema Raza: Yes.

00:19:43.892 --> 00:19:44.066
Of course.

00:19:44.066 --> 00:19:47.751
Matt Abrahams: And so we, we, I,
I think just this notion of being

00:19:47.801 --> 00:19:52.942
open, being curious, listening
makes you available to wisdom.

00:19:53.441 --> 00:19:55.992
Uh, and, and some of the most
insightful things I've learned,

00:19:56.011 --> 00:19:57.771
like you did, uh, from 11-year-olds.

00:19:57.791 --> 00:20:00.171
I mean, what insight, what wisdom
there in that conversation.

00:20:00.172 --> 00:20:01.882
So, well, thank you for
asking me a question.

00:20:01.882 --> 00:20:01.962
Nayeema Raza: Thank you.

00:20:02.222 --> 00:20:02.242
Yeah.

00:20:02.242 --> 00:20:02.576
Hope that was okay.

00:20:02.576 --> 00:20:04.911
Matt Abrahams: Uh, you know, there,
there is no right, there is no wrong.

00:20:05.901 --> 00:20:09.091
Before we get started, a quick reminder
to make sure you're following our show

00:20:09.091 --> 00:20:10.901
in whatever app you're listening to.

00:20:11.321 --> 00:20:13.801
This is the best way to help
our show grow and to make sure

00:20:13.801 --> 00:20:15.321
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00:20:15.841 --> 00:20:17.492
And now a word from our sponsors.

00:20:17.941 --> 00:20:20.851
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00:20:23.941 --> 00:20:28.401
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sure you let them know Matt sent you.

00:20:58.501 --> 00:21:00.422
And now back to our conversation

00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:04.300
Um, so before we end, I'd
like to ask three questions.

00:21:04.300 --> 00:21:06.760
One I make up just for you, and
then the other two I've been asking

00:21:06.760 --> 00:21:08.410
everybody as long as the show's been on.

00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:09.520
Are, are you willing to do that?

00:21:09.560 --> 00:21:11.027
Nayeema Raza: Yes, of course.

00:21:11.027 --> 00:21:11.205
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:21:11.205 --> 00:21:12.273
Nayeema Raza: Does that
count as a question?

00:21:12.273 --> 00:21:13.223
Matt Abrahams: That,
that's a, that's a warmup.

00:21:13.223 --> 00:21:13.543
That's a warmup.

00:21:13.703 --> 00:21:14.779
Nayeema Raza: Don't use
one of your three on that.

00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:15.449
Matt Abrahams: Okay, I won't.

00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.609
No, it's not like wishes with a genie.

00:21:18.099 --> 00:21:21.610
Um, so, uh, to get very serious,
by coincidence, the day we are

00:21:21.610 --> 00:21:24.720
recording, uh, is the anniversary
of your father's passing.

00:21:25.070 --> 00:21:27.629
Uh, you wrote a very touching
and personal article in The New

00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:29.169
York Times about your father.

00:21:29.560 --> 00:21:33.499
Uh, what is one lesson you wish
people would take away from your,

00:21:33.509 --> 00:21:35.649
your father's life and his wisdom?

00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:39.660
Nayeema Raza: Uh, thank you for
asking and for bringing him up and

00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.310
helping me remember him on this day.

00:21:41.770 --> 00:21:42.390
I'll give you two.

00:21:42.390 --> 00:21:45.630
One is from my dad, and one is
from what I've learned from, from

00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:46.800
the experience of losing him.

00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:51.650
I think the, the lesson I learned
from my dad really was to, uh,

00:21:52.580 --> 00:21:57.039
to be present and to not let the
other, may I swear for a second?

00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:57.750
Matt Abrahams: You can.

00:21:57.750 --> 00:21:59.149
Nayeema Raza: The other
shit get in the way.

00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:01.680
He, my dad, was the kind of
guy who never held a grudge.

00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.889
Literally, somebody would be upset with
him and not wanting to talk to him,

00:22:04.890 --> 00:22:08.589
and my dad would call his brother every
Sunday to ask how he's doing, and,

00:22:08.589 --> 00:22:09.980
and he would wear you down, you know?

00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:13.859
He really didn't believe in holding a
grudge because at the end of the day, he

00:22:13.860 --> 00:22:17.519
would say, "Well, what am I gonna do? He's
my brother. He's my friend," you know?

00:22:17.750 --> 00:22:22.340
And he had that ability to, in a
world where I think we're often think

00:22:22.340 --> 00:22:25.090
we don't, we want to cut people out
of our life because of how they feel

00:22:25.090 --> 00:22:27.759
about an opinion politically, how
they feel about something, how they

00:22:27.980 --> 00:22:30.889
showed up on that random Tuesday
when we had something important.

00:22:31.699 --> 00:22:36.109
He had that ability to really hold
people's slander and, and, um,

00:22:36.570 --> 00:22:41.019
and to maintain relationships, uh,
and, and give great forgiveness.

00:22:41.029 --> 00:22:42.190
So that's what I've, I've learned.

00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.429
And how I translate that lesson and think
into my own life is that when you lose

00:22:46.429 --> 00:22:50.229
someone, it's often possible to get caught
up in I should have, and as your friend

00:22:50.229 --> 00:22:52.139
said, you know, should all over yourself.

00:22:52.169 --> 00:22:58.339
Um, and I think that because he lived
that way, I've been able to, uh, release

00:22:58.349 --> 00:23:01.229
some of the, you know, oh, I should have,
you know, in the pandemic, why didn't

00:23:01.230 --> 00:23:04.170
I go quarantine at my parents' house
instead of going out with friends who,

00:23:04.389 --> 00:23:06.879
you know, all of that kind of, of stuff.

00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.849
And I've learned that you really kind of
have the ability to keep people alive and

00:23:10.849 --> 00:23:15.819
to keep having memories and meaning-making
in relationships that are gone.

00:23:17.009 --> 00:23:17.790
Matt Abrahams: That's so true.

00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:22.299
We, we can keep the memory of people
alive through how we talk about them and

00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:23.789
the meaning we make in our own lives.

00:23:23.789 --> 00:23:26.859
Thank you for sharing that, and thank
you for being here on a tough day.

00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:31.359
Uh, question number two, who's a
communicator you admire and why?

00:23:31.369 --> 00:23:31.379
Nayeema Raza: Oh.

00:23:31.999 --> 00:23:33.759
You know, I think Kendrick Lamar.

00:23:34.069 --> 00:23:34.809
Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that.

00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:35.689
Nayeema Raza: Have people said
Kendrick before on this show?

00:23:35.689 --> 00:23:37.480
Matt Abrahams: You are the
first to say Kendrick Lamar.

00:23:37.539 --> 00:23:40.029
Nayeema Raza: I think
that he's just so poetic.

00:23:40.149 --> 00:23:43.199
His lyrics are really spot on.

00:23:43.209 --> 00:23:44.059
They're catchy.

00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:48.009
I think this about a lot of, like, kind
of rapper-songwriters, but the ability to

00:23:48.020 --> 00:23:54.379
poetically, succinctly, and emotionally
talk about very difficult things, I think

00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:56.989
is reflected in, in Kendrick's work.

00:23:57.479 --> 00:24:02.269
Um, and if you, if you read it, like, I
mean, he's kind of like Chekhov, you know?

00:24:02.710 --> 00:24:05.470
Like, if you read it, you find
it extremely deep and meaningful.

00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:05.910
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:06.879
No, absolutely.

00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:13.639
And, and a lot of people don't think about
the communicative power of that genre.

00:24:13.689 --> 00:24:15.669
And, and I appreciate
you highlighting that.

00:24:16.429 --> 00:24:19.820
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:24:19.820 --> 00:24:21.790
successful communication recipe?

00:24:22.020 --> 00:24:22.659
Nayeema Raza: I love that.

00:24:23.329 --> 00:24:26.720
Um, you know I'm gonna say it's on
brand, but number one, curiosity.

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.250
Um, number two, chemistry.

00:24:34.100 --> 00:24:39.094
Being able to cultivate, create, and, and,
um, create that chemistry with, through

00:24:39.114 --> 00:24:42.584
pauses, through play, through jokes,
through language, all the ways that you

00:24:42.584 --> 00:24:46.844
can kind of make sure that communication
is, you know, at least two-way, if not

00:24:47.184 --> 00:24:49.294
an intellectual throuple or beyond.

00:24:49.644 --> 00:24:56.613
Um, and number three, I'm gonna say a
sense of what's not in the room, a sense

00:24:56.614 --> 00:25:02.233
of what's missing, so that you can expand
a conversation, a communication, so that

00:25:02.614 --> 00:25:06.924
you can leave a conversation and think
about how to take it beyond this world

00:25:06.924 --> 00:25:09.384
and, and just can be more aware, I think.

00:25:10.064 --> 00:25:13.573
Matt Abrahams: That last point about
awareness about what's not present

00:25:14.213 --> 00:25:18.203
really allows for conversation and
communication to expand and extend,

00:25:18.573 --> 00:25:19.923
and I, I think that's really powerful.

00:25:19.923 --> 00:25:23.383
And I, I appreciate the notion of
chemistry, connection, building

00:25:23.384 --> 00:25:26.343
that, having that as intention
and, and of course, curiosity.

00:25:26.713 --> 00:25:33.454
Well, thank you for your time and for,
uh, being so forthright and open and

00:25:33.454 --> 00:25:37.414
sharing with us how we can all be better
translators and more curious in our lives.

00:25:37.414 --> 00:25:38.254
I appreciate your time.

00:25:38.334 --> 00:25:38.954
Nayeema Raza: Thank you so much.

00:25:39.053 --> 00:25:40.023
Thank you for having me.

00:25:40.023 --> 00:25:42.433
I've, you know, I love your show,
and I love the work that you

00:25:42.434 --> 00:25:43.894
do, and I love how global it is.

00:25:44.074 --> 00:25:47.643
I just want to say you are reaching
people all over the world who this is

00:25:47.643 --> 00:25:52.183
a global challenge, and you are doing
a great job of helping people succeed

00:25:52.184 --> 00:25:55.373
in their own languages, in English, and
just in everything they do, so thank you.

00:25:55.404 --> 00:25:55.833
Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you.

00:25:55.864 --> 00:25:56.863
Best of luck to you as well.

00:25:56.864 --> 00:25:57.204
Nayeema Raza: Thanks.

00:25:57.654 --> 00:25:59.764
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:25:59.764 --> 00:26:01.613
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:26:01.893 --> 00:26:05.193
To hear more interesting and insightful
episodes like this one, be sure to check

00:26:05.193 --> 00:26:10.053
out our back catalog of episodes in your
favorite player or at fastersmarter.io.

00:26:10.393 --> 00:26:14.944
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:26:15.193 --> 00:26:17.013
Our music is by Floyd Wonder.

00:26:17.143 --> 00:26:20.214
With special thanks to the team
at Spotify Studios in New York

00:26:20.214 --> 00:26:22.453
City and Podium Podcast Company.

00:26:22.823 --> 00:26:25.553
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