311. Don't Lose the Room: How to Make Ideas Stick

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff, practice, and then just do it and be there. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm really excited to speak with Kai Ryssdal. Kai is the host and senior editor of Marketplace, an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning daily show where he translates complex economic and business news into engaging, accessible conversations for millions of listeners. Before Marketplace, Kai spent eight years in the United States Navy and later served as a member of the United States Foreign Service. He's renowned for his signature conversational delivery and deep economic expertise. So welcome, Kai. I am a big listener, to your show. I enjoy it every day, and a big thank you to Mary Beth Kirchner and JJ Yore for the introduction. Thanks for being here. 

[00:00:56] Kai Ryssdal: I'm absolutely pleased to.

[00:00:58] Matt Abrahams: Okay. Shall we get started? 

[00:00:59] Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 

[00:00:59] Matt Abrahams: All right. Uh, you've got a unique gift of making sense of a lot of really complex, detailed information. A lot of the people listening in are in similar situations where they have technical, financial, scientific information they have to get across. How do you think about making that content accessible?

[00:01:16] Kai Ryssdal: It's important to understand that I am not a business and economics guy. I'm a history and political science guy from way back, right? I have not taken economics course number one in college or in graduate school. And until I got the job at Marketplace, I hadn't really given it much thought. So when I sit down and this holds true for my entire time at Marketplace, when I sit down to write the show, I do two things. I have to make it make sense to myself what I'm saying, right? So obviously I have to do some research and understand what it is, and then figure out how I'm gonna explain it. And then, and this is the God's honest truth I think about how I would help my mother understand it.

[00:01:50] My mom is an 86-year-old woman who, this is true, does not have an ATM card. Goes to the bank every Friday afternoon and cashes a check for $100 to tide her over till next Friday. So if I can make it make sense to her then I think I'm doing all right. The caveat and the catch with that, of course, is that we have really sophisticated listeners to Marketplace, right? We have folks who work on Wall Street. We have folks who work in the industry. We have folks who work in every possible slice of this economy, and they understand in depth the things that I'm talking about. So make it understandable, but don't dumb it down. That's the challenge. 

[00:02:24] Matt Abrahams: Right. And are there particular techniques that you rely on? Analogies, stories? 

[00:02:29] Kai Ryssdal: Just a turn of phrase. This is sort of overly simplistic, but radio audio, video aside, right, 'cause that's where podcasts are going or already are, is a distinctly aural medium. And so it has to resonate with people. It has to come off my tongue in a way that I know what I'm talking about, and then it has to land with them in a way that they're gonna be able to absorb it so that they're not trying to process the thing I just said while they're listening to the thing I'm saying now. So it's a little bit of wordplay, it's a little bit of humor, it's a little bit of self-deprecation, and then the nuts and bolts, right? 

[00:03:03] Matt Abrahams: And you're so good at doing that. I really appreciate this idea that it's not just landing what you're saying in the moment, but you don't want it to distract them from what comes next.

[00:03:11] Kai Ryssdal: So that's the difference between audio and print, right? When I'm reading a, a newspaper article or a magazine article, if I realize that I've blipped out for a second and I can't remember what this guy's name is, I can scroll back. You can do that on a podcast, but you know, on broadcast audio you can't. And if you have to do it on podcast and in digital audio, you're kind of breaking the rhythm, you know? 

[00:03:30] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, there is a rhythm to it. And you're very good at keeping things moving. There's a flow to the work you do. Are you conscious of that? Do you think about that? 

[00:03:37] Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah, very much so. Very much so.

[00:03:39] Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that. 

[00:03:39] Kai Ryssdal: My job is to make everybody who's there at the beginning of the program or the beginning of the podcast or the beginning of whatever I'm doing, still be there at the end. So you weave that through the program. You make references to things you have said or are going to say. You talk about things that are coming up. Just make people still be there, you know? If you actually listen to a 28 minute and 45 second episode of Marketplace, which is how much time we have my total content, on days that don't have a lot of interviews and me content, my total contribution is three and a half, maybe four minutes, in 30 second chunks setting up our reporters, right? So my job is to make those reporters' stories sing, and to make people, at the end of my 30 second introduction, say, "Oh, wait, now I want to hear this story," and make them hang around for another three minutes and 30 seconds or whatever it is. And so that's sort of what I do. 

[00:04:27] Matt Abrahams: When I teach my students, I use the analogy of being a tour guide. A good tour guide gets people excited and keeps them moving throughout and wanting to see what's next. 

[00:04:34] Kai Ryssdal: You bet. But doesn't give it away. 

[00:04:35] Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right.

[00:04:36] Kai Ryssdal: Right? 'Cause if you give it away, then what are you even doing? 

[00:04:38] Matt Abrahams: That's right. You have to make them curious without revealing too much. There's a skill to that. Speaking of the way your show runs we had Peter Sagal on, who did Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!, and we talked about Introductions. Many of us are in situations where we have to introduce people. You do a lot of introductions, just like him. Do you have a way of introducing people that others could leverage? 

[00:04:59] Kai Ryssdal: So first of all, just on my own personal experience and, and for those out there who wind up doing a lot of introductions don't read somebody's CV out loud. Just don't do that, please. not only is it mortifying, it's not edifying for the audience. Find something personal, find an anecdote, find something that's gonna make it stick. That's the only thing I can say. Make it relevant to the people to whom this person is going to be speaking, right? Introduce them. Make them make friends, you know, in, in as short a period as you have to do it because that's what you have to do.

[00:05:27] And when I'm setting up an interview, it's me and this person for the next four minutes, and the audience has to be there. And if you don't have the audience with you, then you've failed, honestly, right? And look, I'm a huge fan of Peter's and Peter does this really well, you know, and he does it with humor. He has the benefit actually of having the live audience, right? So he's got that feedback mechanism. Um, but you know, just make people make friends. That's it. 

[00:05:50] Matt Abrahams: I like what you said. To me, a good introduction, and you hinted at this, is it's an invitation. It's an invitation to wanna hear more. And you're setting the other person up, and anecdotes are great ways to do it. So you interview a wide range of people, from Fortune 500 CEOs to a small business owner, and your interviews often feel very conversational, not very threatening. Uh, how do you work to make that conversation happen? It feels like people are just talking to you even though there are many, many people listening in. 

[00:06:18] Kai Ryssdal: So, this is a methodology question, right? 

[00:06:21] Matt Abrahams: Yes. 

[00:06:21] Kai Ryssdal: Obviously, there's a team of producers at Marketplace, who do the booking of the interview. They'll do sometimes an initial conversation with that person, and then sometimes, you know, actually think about the questions they wanna ask. And they give me basically a one-sheet. And they say, "Listen, this is why we're interviewing this person. Here are my thoughts on this, and here's a couple of questions." I take that, and I internalize it. And then I put it away And I will not go into a studio with a list of questions in front of me. I will have major points and things that really need to be said, especially if it's a big deal interview. Like, if I'm talking to Jay Powell you know, there's some things I have to ask him, and, and I'll note those down.

[00:06:57] But the name of the game is to be there. And by being there, I mean you have to listen. Because we can all hear when an interviewer is literally running down a list of questions, and has not paid attention to the answer preceding the next question, and just moves right on. And that makes me crazy. So be there. Be in the moment. Make it a conversation. understand that you are in charge, and you have to guide this person to where you want them to be. But it can't be just ticking through a list of questions, right? And sometimes the best question is an interrogatory. Tell me more about that. Oh? Or sometimes if it's a newsmaker who's blowing you off, come on, really? Just be there and be yourself. 

[00:07:40] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. And connect what they're saying to what's important for you. 

[00:07:43] Kai Ryssdal: And Marketplace has a very specific purpose, right? Our purpose is to raise the economic intelligence of the country. And so what you will hear in my interviews versus an interview that you hear on other shows or other podcasts is me going with that lens, right? Let's figure out what the economic slice of this, what the business slice of this is, and help people understand that part of what it is that they're gonna consume in the news that day. I'm incredibly conscious of that because that's our bread and butter, right? Our bread and butter is business and the economy as a lens to see the world. And that's what I do every day when I go into the studio. 

[00:08:19] Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus of what the goal is, the larger goal, being present and listening, and knowing that it's not just the questions you ask, but it's the responses to the question that keep it conversational.

[00:08:30] Kai Ryssdal: It, it's entirely the responses to the questions, right? Because the person you're talking to has to feel that they are in a conversation with you. If they feel they're on the spot or they're just answering rote questions, then their answers change. That's death to a decent interview, and it's four minutes that my mom's gonna turn off the radio.

[00:08:49] Matt Abrahams: How do you keep an interview on track? Sometimes people wander or they don't wanna answer the question you, you asked. 

[00:08:54] Kai Ryssdal: Yeah, they do. Well, so look.

[00:08:56] Matt Abrahams: How do you bring it back?

[00:08:56] Kai Ryssdal: So that's two different things. If they don't wanna answer the question you asked, you have to ask the question again. And what I will not infrequently do is after I've asked question A, they will give me answer X, right? And I will say, in these many words, "Let me try this again and see if I can get a different answer," right? So that they know that, number one, I'm not satisfied with what they said, right? But number two, maybe they'll frame things in a slightly different way.

[00:09:20] A really experienced CEO is gonna stick to their knitting and give you the stock answer. Somebody who's, you know, regular walk of life or running a small business or what have you is gonna probably recirculate. And then the other thing is, you know, if they don't tell you what you need to know, you have to keep going at it, right? If it's an important thing, if it's an important interview, you have to get that information out there because that's what the listener demands. 

[00:09:43] Matt Abrahams: And when somebody goes off track or on a tangent, how do you pull them back?

[00:09:46] Kai Ryssdal: You, you, gotta interrupt them sometimes, right? Sometimes you have to say, "Listen, let's put a pin in that conversation and let's bring it back here to this other thing." Also, if you're doing a live interview, it's one thing, but if you're doing a taped interview, you have the power of the razor blade and the splicing tape, you know? And you can sort of save them from themselves. 

[00:10:01] Matt Abrahams: One of the techniques I like to use when things get a little off on a tangent is to interrupt. I totally agree. But I do so with a paraphrase where I'll highlight something that they've said and then pull it back. But again, it comes back to that being that tour guide where you know where you wanna go and if we start going off, we gotta pull it back.

[00:10:16] Kai Ryssdal: And, and the catch, of course, is finding that moment, right? 'Cause you don't wanna be rude, you don't wanna really interrupt them, but it's your job to keep the train on the tracks, for sure. 

[00:10:23] Matt Abrahams: And the rudeness piece, I think, is a really important point. When you're, you don't wanna be rude to the guest, but you're being rude to the other people, the audience if you don't do it. So you've gotta weigh those. There's a lot of emotion in some of the things that you talk about, anxiety in particular, you know, when we're talking about economics, what's going on in the world. How do you thread that needle of acknowledging the emotion, the anxiety in the moment, but also not getting people so upset and fearful that they tune out?

[00:10:50] Kai Ryssdal: We had this conversation a lot in the early days of the financial crisis going on now 20 years ago, 'cause the news, much as it is today, was really, really grim, and it was economically and financially scary. And our conversation was, what's our job? Is our job to make people feel better, or is our job to help them understand what's happening and then they can process it how they want? And we came down on, we have to help them understand this, right? And we can't sugarcoat it. So let's address the anxiety, let's address the fact that these are scary, scary times, and then go from there with them having the information. I had done about, probably 10 years ago now, an interview with, the CEO of Marriott. I went to New York, went to breakfast with him in a Marriott hotel, and we had a great conversation, and it was really good. Arne Sorenson, CEO of Marriott. 

[00:11:40] Formerly. Anyway, early in COVID, I discovered that he had been diagnosed with stage four, cancer of some variety or other, and it was, like, terminal, and he knew that. And so we got him back on the show because he hadn't stepped down yet, but he was clearly dying, and we did it on video, actually, and he looked like a stage four cancer guy. And we had a whole conversation about his scary moment in these really scary times. It landed with me, it landed with listeners, and you just have to go there, right? And look, I've been doing this for a while now, and I, I think listeners trust me to take them there. I think about that interview a lot, actually. That was a moment, right? It was a moment. And you just have to lean into it. 

[00:12:23] Matt Abrahams: Acknowledging that there is anxiety around this and saying, "We're gonna get through this together," but you're better off understanding and knowing. And that way people are willing to go that distance, and I think the point you made is that there's a trust that people have in you that allows that to happen. I wanna deal with anxiety, specifically about anxiety you might feel. You've been a fighter pilot, a diplomat. You're a live on-air host. for many of us, those would be anxiety-filled situations. Do you have some things that you do to help you manage your anxiety that others of us could benefit from? 

[00:12:52] Kai Ryssdal: Here is my mantra, and it makes my producers crazy when I say this out loud, but it is truly what I believe. If you think about how you sound in front of a microphone, while you're sitting in front of a microphone, you're gonna screw up how you sound on the microphone, so don't think, just talk, okay? Now, that's not to say don't be prepared. It's not to say don't think about what you wanna get out of it before you go sit down in the studio. It's not to say don't be your prepared best, right? But once you get there, and this goes back to the thing we were talking about before, about being in the conversation.

[00:13:26] Once you get there, the only way to be there is not to think about all those other things. Just be there. And have that conversation. It sounds silly, but in a way, that's calming, right? Because if you know you've done your homework before you get into the studio, you don't need that piece of paper. You don't need the producer in that ear. Once you're there, you have to be there. And if you're thinking about all that other crap, you're doing it wrong.

[00:13:51] Matt Abrahams: You know, a lot of my work in the last several years has been helping people speak in the moment and spontaneously. And it's exactly what you're talking about. You can do a lot to prepare. People always sort of cock their head when I say you can prepare to be spontaneous, but it's that planning and then when you show up, you just do it. It's like an athlete. Athletes do lots of drills. 

[00:14:08] Kai Ryssdal: And look, there are some people who can actually not think about it and show up and be spontaneous and be great. That's not most people. 

[00:14:14] Matt Abrahams: That's correct. That's correct. So what helps you to manage some of the fear is that you do a lot of prep then you just focus and come do it.

[00:14:20] Kai Ryssdal: But then I know when I get in the room, I know what I'm doing. 

[00:14:22] Matt Abrahams: So if something doesn't go the way you want, a question doesn't come out right, you say something that you're not happy with, in the moment, what do you do with that? And after the fact, what do you do with that?

[00:14:32] Kai Ryssdal: So I try really hard not to fix things after the fact, right? So when we're doing a taped interview and I screw something up and I know I've screwed it up, I will actually correct it in the next moment, right? The next moment I have in that interview, just to go back and, and be honest about it. Sometimes my producer will be on Slack and say, "Listen, it's 42, not 17," or whatever. But just fix it right there, you know? 

[00:14:53] Matt Abrahams: Right. And not beat yourself up about it, because you can then get in your head saying, "Oh, I can't believe I made that mistake. I said the wrong number." You have to still be in that moment. Mike Krzyzewski, the famous basketball coach taught his players this idea of next play. So you screw up, you keep going. 

[00:15:08] Kai Ryssdal: So I'm a high school and college soccer referee. And it's the same deal. Because if you don't let the mistake that you made by not calling that foul or missing the handball or whatever, if you don't let that go, you will surely miss the next one. And it's a 90-minute game, and you gotta be there for all 90 minutes of it. That's exactly right. 

[00:15:26] Matt Abrahams: You're a ref. I find that really interesting, given what you do for a profession. I see some commonalities of that. But absolutely, you can carry with you that issue and that in and of itself is a skill that's hard for people to manage, to let go. 

[00:15:39] Kai Ryssdal: It's really hard. 

[00:15:39] Matt Abrahams: And I like to distinguish between rumination and reflection. I think reflection's really important. That's how we learn and we grow. But if we ruminate in that moment it's gonna cause everything else to tumble. You ask a lot of questions. How do you stay curious about that? I mean, it can become sort of mundane, but you seem genuinely interested. 

[00:15:57] Kai Ryssdal: I'm a genuinely curious person and that's the rewarding part of being a journalist. My job, you know, people always say, "Well, the host's job in a radio program is to be a, you know, a stand-in for the audience and ask them what they wanna know." And sure, yes, to some degree, but my job is to be respectful of the guest and respectful of the audience's time, and to try to elicit from them, you know, things that I think the audience is gonna find interesting. And the only way to do that is to be curious about what they do. Sometimes it's manufactured curiosity, and sometimes it's genuine, but the name of the game is don't let that show. Be there, ask those questions, and hope the audience gets something out of it. 

[00:16:28] Matt Abrahams: And even in those manufactured moments, there's something in there that is interesting.

[00:16:31] Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah. There's always something that makes you go, "Huh?" And which by the way, if you're listening to the answer, leads you on a different path, and it takes you off of that prepared list of questions, right?

[00:16:42] Matt Abrahams: That's right. Is there a question that you have that you go back to if you need a question in the moment? Do you have a favorite or a go-to or not so much?

[00:16:49] Kai Ryssdal: Uh, I smile because me having a, me going blank in a big interview led to one of the most revealing answers we've ever had on Marketplace. But let me give you my go-to. My go-to for anybody is in a business and economic situation, what's your worst nightmare? What keeps you up at night? It gives me time to think and regroup, you know? And they will, sometimes the answers are revealing and sometimes it's cutting room floor stuff, right? Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. I was interviewing Janet Yellen once between her time as Fed chair and when she got the job as Treasury Secretary. So it's like 2018, '19. We went to her office in Brookings in Washington.

[00:17:24] When I go into those interviews, I don't have a piece of paper in front of me because I like to be there and present with the person I'm talking to. And she finished whatever answer she had given to the question, and my mind just went blank. I just completely brain-farted. And so I looked at her and I said, "Do you think Donald Trump understands economic policy?" And she looked at me and said, "No, I don't." And I was like, "Oh my God." Oh my God, right? It came from me just not knowing what else to do, so I just came up with something. So, you know, just say something, right? 

[00:17:56] The biggest fear people report to me is the fear of blanking out. But it happens to everybody, right? You know? I mean... 

[00:18:02] Matt Abrahams: And the way through it is to do what you did, just to throw out a question.

[00:18:04] Kai Ryssdal: The way through it is through it. 

[00:18:05] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. Really interesting.

[00:18:07] I end all of my episodes with three questions. One I'm gonna make up just for you, and the other two I've been asking people for a long time. Are you up for that? 

[00:18:14] Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 

[00:18:14] Matt Abrahams: In terms of what you do, how do you see AI impacting communication and journalism in general? 

[00:18:20] Kai Ryssdal: Well, so that's two different things, right? The issue of communication and fakes and all of those things is deeply troubling, not just on a journalistic level, but on a societal level, right? On a trust and on a mutual adherence to norms basis, I think that's really, really challenging. Journalism can be really, really helped by artificial intelligence: analysis, trend spotting, you know, all of those things. But AI writing articles and doing podcasts and all of which it's capable of doing is not the way to a successful future for the United States and for the rest of the planet. You know, set aside the fact that it would put me and probably you out of a job.

[00:18:59] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:19:00] Kai Ryssdal: You know? 

[00:19:01] Matt Abrahams: Right. So use it as a tool.

[00:19:03] Kai Ryssdal: It is a tool, right? But be smart, and let's have a human in that loop, and let's not just abrogate all responsibility and say, "Here you go. AI’s gonna take care of this," 'cause it's not. 

[00:19:12] Matt Abrahams: At the end of the day, communication is operationalized critical thinking, and if we let AI do that, we're missing out on things. Question number two. Who's a communicator that you admire, and why?

[00:19:22] Kai Ryssdal: The two that I've come up with are not spoken word people. Jim Fallows, formerly at The Atlantic, now on his own Substack, but for many years an observational journalist of international affairs, national security, and a writer. I would read almost anything he's written, truly. Same thing goes for John Dickerson, late of CBS News and Slate. I just find those two guys really interesting to read. I'm really critical of spoken word people or television people because I'm so innately connected to that. Part of that's probably professional jealousy. Part of it's probably envy somehow. But those are two who, who come to the top of my head.

[00:20:01] Matt Abrahams: Is there something that they do in their writing that's particularly, is it their thoroughness?

[00:20:05] Kai Ryssdal: They are at the same time very concrete and very big idea, and they have the ability to land that plane, if you will.

[00:20:13] Matt Abrahams: And that's, that's an art. Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:20:19] Kai Ryssdal: Know what you're talking about, but not to such a degree as you are paralyzed by the information, right? It's like you use the recipe thing. I will continue that analogy. You know, sometimes you need a pinch of salt. Sometimes you need a half a tablespoon of salt. Whatever. Throw some salt in there, right? So know what you're talking about. Number two, some concept of brevity. If you are long-winded, you will lose people's attention. If you are too short-winded, you shortchange your listener and the subject at hand. So find that happy medium between going on too long and just saying, "All right, let's go." And then finally, I'm gonna go back to my old standby. Don't think too much. Know what you're talking about, right? Item number one on this, know what you're talking about. And then once you know that, once you've internalized it, then just be in the moment and just do it. Be present. Be yourself. Express yourself, and then the audience will react to you. 

[00:21:15] Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff. Be concise. And be present. 

[00:21:18] Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 

[00:21:19] Matt Abrahams: Excellent ingredients. And helpful for not just what you do, but for what all of us do. Kai, this has been fantastic. A fan boy moment for me. I, I really enjoy your show, and I enjoy how you communicate and try to emulate some of the things you do. Thank you for your time, and keep up the great work. 

[00:21:34] Kai Ryssdal: Absolutely a pleasure, Matt. Thank you. 

[00:21:35] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for listening to another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast. To learn more about similar communication, listen to Peter Sagal, episode 220. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to the team at Spotify Los Angeles and Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community.