311. Don't Lose the Room: How to Make Ideas Stick

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Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff, practice,
and then just do it and be there.

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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm really excited
to speak with Kai Ryssdal.

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Kai is the host and senior editor
of Marketplace, an Emmy and Peabody

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Award-winning daily show where he
translates complex economic and

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business news into engaging, accessible
conversations for millions of listeners.

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Before Marketplace, Kai spent eight
years in the United States Navy

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and later served as a member of
the United States Foreign Service.

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He's renowned for his signature
conversational delivery and

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deep economic expertise.

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So welcome, Kai.

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I am a big listener, to your show.

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I enjoy it every day, and a big
thank you to Mary Beth Kirchner

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and JJ Yore for the introduction.

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Thanks for being here.

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Kai Ryssdal: I'm absolutely pleased to.

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Matt Abrahams: Okay.

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Shall we get started?

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Kai Ryssdal: Yeah.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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Uh, you've got a unique gift of
making sense of a lot of really

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complex, detailed information.

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A lot of the people listening in
are in similar situations where they

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have technical, financial, scientific
information they have to get across.

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How do you think about making
that content accessible?

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Kai Ryssdal: It's important
to understand that I am not

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a business and economics guy.

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I'm a history and political
science guy from way back, right?

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I have not taken economics course number
one in college or in graduate school.

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And until I got the job at Marketplace,
I hadn't really given it much thought.

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So when I sit down and this holds true for
my entire time at Marketplace, when I sit

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down to write the show, I do two things.

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I have to make it make sense to
myself what I'm saying, right?

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So obviously I have to do some research
and understand what it is, and then

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figure out how I'm gonna explain it.

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And then, and this is the God's
honest truth I think about how I

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would help my mother understand it.

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My mom is an 86-year-old woman who,
this is true, does not have an ATM card.

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Goes to the bank every Friday
afternoon and cashes a check for $100

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to tide her over till next Friday.

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So if I can make it make sense to
her then I think I'm doing all right.

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The caveat and the catch with
that, of course, is that we

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have really sophisticated
listeners to Marketplace, right?

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We have folks who work on Wall Street.

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We have folks who work in the industry.

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We have folks who work in every
possible slice of this economy,

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and they understand in depth the
things that I'm talking about.

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So make it understandable,
but don't dumb it down.

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That's the challenge.

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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And are there particular
techniques that you rely on?

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Analogies, stories?

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Kai Ryssdal: Just a turn of phrase.

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This is sort of overly simplistic, but
radio audio, video aside, right, 'cause

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that's where podcasts are going or
already are, is a distinctly aural medium.

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And so it has to resonate with people.

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It has to come off my tongue in a way
that I know what I'm talking about, and

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then it has to land with them in a way
that they're gonna be able to absorb it

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so that they're not trying to process
the thing I just said while they're

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listening to the thing I'm saying now.

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So it's a little bit of wordplay,
it's a little bit of humor, it's

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a little bit of self-deprecation,
and then the nuts and bolts, right?

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Matt Abrahams: And you're
so good at doing that.

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I really appreciate this idea that it's
not just landing what you're saying

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in the moment, but you don't want it
to distract them from what comes next.

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Kai Ryssdal: So that's the difference
between audio and print, right?

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When I'm reading a, a newspaper
article or a magazine article, if I

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realize that I've blipped out for a
second and I can't remember what this

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guy's name is, I can scroll back.

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You can do that on a podcast, but you
know, on broadcast audio you can't.

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And if you have to do it on podcast
and in digital audio, you're kind

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of breaking the rhythm, you know?

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah,
there is a rhythm to it.

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And you're very good at
keeping things moving.

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There's a flow to the work you do.

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Are you conscious of that?

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Do you think about that?

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Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah, very much so.

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Very much so.

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Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that.

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Kai Ryssdal: My job is to make everybody
who's there at the beginning of

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the program or the beginning of the
podcast or the beginning of whatever

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I'm doing, still be there at the end.

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So you weave that through the program.

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You make references to things you
have said or are going to say.

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You talk about things that are coming up.

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Just make people still be there, you know?

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If you actually listen to a 28 minute
and 45 second episode of Marketplace,

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which is how much time we have my
total content, on days that don't have

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a lot of interviews and me content,
my total contribution is three and a

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half, maybe four minutes, in 30 second
chunks setting up our reporters, right?

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So my job is to make those reporters'
stories sing, and to make people, at

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the end of my 30 second introduction,
say, "Oh, wait, now I want to hear

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this story," and make them hang
around for another three minutes

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and 30 seconds or whatever it is.

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And so that's sort of what I do.

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Matt Abrahams: When I teach my students,
I use the analogy of being a tour guide.

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A good tour guide gets people excited
and keeps them moving throughout

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and wanting to see what's next.

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Kai Ryssdal: You bet.

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But doesn't give it away.

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Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right.

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Kai Ryssdal: Right?

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'Cause if you give it away,
then what are you even doing?

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Matt Abrahams: That's right.

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You have to make them curious
without revealing too much.

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There's a skill to that.

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Speaking of the way your show runs
we had Peter Sagal on, who did

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Wait Wait… Don't Tell Me!, and
we talked about Introductions.

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Many of us are in situations
where we have to introduce people.

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You do a lot of
introductions, just like him.

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Do you have a way of introducing
people that others could leverage?

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Kai Ryssdal: So first of all, just
on my own personal experience and,

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and for those out there who wind
up doing a lot of introductions

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don't read somebody's CV out loud.

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Just don't do that, please.

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not only is it mortifying, it's
not edifying for the audience.

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Find something personal, find an anecdote,
find something that's gonna make it stick.

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That's the only thing I can say.

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Make it relevant to the
people to whom this person is

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going to be speaking, right?

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Introduce them.

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Make them make friends, you know, in,
in as short a period as you have to do

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it because that's what you have to do.

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And when I'm setting up an interview,
it's me and this person for the next four

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minutes, and the audience has to be there.

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And if you don't have the audience with
you, then you've failed, honestly, right?

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And look, I'm a huge fan of Peter's
and Peter does this really well,

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you know, and he does it with humor.

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He has the benefit actually of
having the live audience, right?

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So he's got that feedback mechanism.

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Um, but you know, just
make people make friends.

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That's it.

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Matt Abrahams: I like what you said.

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To me, a good introduction, and you
hinted at this, is it's an invitation.

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It's an invitation … to wanna hear more.

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And you're setting the other person up,
and anecdotes are great ways to do it.

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So you interview a wide range of people,
from Fortune 500 CEOs to a small business

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owner, and your interviews often feel
very conversational, not very threatening.

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Uh, how do you work to make
that conversation happen?

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It feels like people are just
talking to you even though there

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are many, many people listening in.

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Kai Ryssdal: So, this is a
methodology question, right?

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Matt Abrahams: Yes.

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Kai Ryssdal: Obviously, there's a
team of producers at Marketplace,

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who do the booking of the interview.

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They'll do sometimes an initial
conversation with that person, and then

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sometimes, you know, actually think
about the questions they wanna ask.

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And they give me basically a one-sheet.

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And they say, "Listen, this is why
we're interviewing this person.

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Here are my thoughts on this, and
here's a couple of questions." I

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take that, and I internalize it.

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And then I put it away And I
will not go into a studio with a

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list of questions in front of me.

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I will have major points and things
that really need to be said, especially

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if it's a big deal interview.

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Like, if I'm talking to Jay Powell you
know, there's some things I have to

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ask him, and, and I'll note those down.

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But the name of the game is to be there.

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And by being there, I
mean you have to listen.

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Because we can all hear when an
interviewer is literally running down

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a list of questions, and has not paid
attention to the answer preceding the

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next question, and just moves right on.

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And that makes me crazy.

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So be there.

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Be in the moment.

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Make it a conversation.

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understand that you are in charge,
and you have to guide this person

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to where you want them to be.

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But it can't be just ticking
through a list of questions, right?

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And sometimes the best
question is an interrogatory.

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Tell me more about that.

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Oh?

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Or sometimes if it's a newsmaker who's
blowing you off, come on, really?

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Just be there and be yourself.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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And connect what they're saying
to what's important for you.

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Kai Ryssdal: And Marketplace has
a very specific purpose, right?

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Our purpose is to raise the economic
intelligence of the country.

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And so what you will hear in my
interviews versus an interview that you

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hear on other shows or other podcasts
is me going with that lens, right?

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Let's figure out what the economic
slice of this, what the business slice

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of this is, and help people understand
that part of what it is that they're

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gonna consume in the news that day.

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I'm incredibly conscious of that because
that's our bread and butter, right?

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Our bread and butter is business and
the economy as a lens to see the world.

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And that's what I do every
day when I go into the studio.

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Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus
of what the goal is, the larger goal,

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being present and listening, and knowing
that it's not just the questions you

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ask, but it's the responses to the
question that keep it conversational.

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Kai Ryssdal: It, it's entirely the
responses to the questions, right?

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Because the person you're talking
to has to feel that they are

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in a conversation with you.

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If they feel they're on the spot
or they're just answering rote

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questions, then their answers change.

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That's death to a decent interview,
and it's four minutes that my

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mom's gonna turn off the radio.

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Matt Abrahams: How do you
keep an interview on track?

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Sometimes people wander or they don't
wanna answer the question you, you asked.

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Kai Ryssdal: Yeah, they do.

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Well, so look.

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Matt Abrahams: How do you bring it back?

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Kai Ryssdal: So that's
two different things.

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If they don't wanna answer the
question you asked, you have

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to ask the question again.

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And what I will not infrequently
do is after I've asked question A,

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they will give me answer X, right?

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And I will say, in these many words,
"Let me try this again and see if I

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can get a different answer," right?

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So that they know that, number one, I'm
not satisfied with what they said, right?

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But number two, maybe they'll frame
things in a slightly different way.

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A really experienced CEO is
gonna stick to their knitting

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and give you the stock answer.

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Somebody who's, you know, regular walk of
life or running a small business or what

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have you is gonna probably recirculate.

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And then the other thing is, you know,
if they don't tell you what you need to

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know, you have to keep going at it, right?

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If it's an important thing, if it's
an important interview, you have to

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get that information out there because
that's what the listener demands.

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Matt Abrahams: And when somebody
goes off track or on a tangent,

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how do you pull them back?

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Kai Ryssdal: You, you, gotta
interrupt them sometimes, right?

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Sometimes you have to say, "Listen,
let's put a pin in that conversation

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and let's bring it back here to this
other thing." Also, if you're doing

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a live interview, it's one thing, but
if you're doing a taped interview,

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you have the power of the razor blade
and the splicing tape, you know?

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And you can sort of save
them from themselves.

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Matt Abrahams: One of the techniques
I like to use when things get a little

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off on a tangent is to interrupt.

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I totally agree.

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But I do so with a paraphrase
where I'll highlight something that

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they've said and then pull it back.

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But again, it comes back to that
being that tour guide where you know

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where you wanna go and if we start
going off, we gotta pull it back.

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Kai Ryssdal: And, and the catch, of
course, is finding that moment, right?

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'Cause you don't wanna be rude,
you don't wanna really interrupt

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them, but it's your job to keep
the train on the tracks, for sure.

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Matt Abrahams: And the rudeness piece,
I think, is a really important point.

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When you're, you don't wanna be
rude to the guest, but you're

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being rude to the other people,
the audience if you don't do it.

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So you've gotta weigh those.

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There's a lot of emotion in some
of the things that you talk about,

00:10:35.468 --> 00:10:38.818
anxiety in particular, you know,
when we're talking about economics,

00:10:38.818 --> 00:10:39.938
what's going on in the world.

00:10:41.310 --> 00:10:46.140
How do you thread that needle of
acknowledging the emotion, the anxiety in

00:10:46.140 --> 00:10:50.150
the moment, but also not getting people
so upset and fearful that they tune out?

00:10:50.380 --> 00:10:53.710
Kai Ryssdal: We had this conversation a
lot in the early days of the financial

00:10:53.710 --> 00:10:58.660
crisis going on now 20 years ago,
'cause the news, much as it is today,

00:10:59.020 --> 00:11:02.620
was really, really grim, and it was
economically and financially scary.

00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:06.060
And our conversation was, what's our job?

00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:09.870
Is our job to make people feel
better, or is our job to help them

00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:14.440
understand what's happening and then
they can process it how they want?

00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:17.800
And we came down on, we have to
help them understand this, right?

00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:18.970
And we can't sugarcoat it.

00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:22.750
So let's address the anxiety, let's
address the fact that these are scary,

00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:27.700
scary times, and then go from there
with them having the information.

00:11:28.020 --> 00:11:31.280
I had done about, probably 10
years ago now, an interview

00:11:31.570 --> 00:11:34.140
with, the CEO of Marriott.

00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:36.580
I went to New York, went to
breakfast with him in a Marriott

00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:38.790
hotel, and we had a great
conversation, and it was really good.

00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:40.890
Arne Sorenson, CEO of Marriott.

00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:41.410
Formerly.

00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.500
Anyway, early in COVID, I discovered that
he had been diagnosed with stage four,

00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:51.070
cancer of some variety or other, and it
was, like, terminal, and he knew that.

00:11:51.670 --> 00:11:55.970
And so we got him back on the show
because he hadn't stepped down yet,

00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:59.890
but he was clearly dying, and we
did it on video, actually, and he

00:11:59.890 --> 00:12:01.470
looked like a stage four cancer guy.

00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.760
And we had a whole conversation about his
scary moment in these really scary times.

00:12:08.270 --> 00:12:11.410
It landed with me, it landed
with listeners, and you just

00:12:11.410 --> 00:12:13.390
have to go there, right?

00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:15.880
And look, I've been doing this
for a while now, and I, I think

00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:17.870
listeners trust me to take them there.

00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:20.260
I think about that
interview a lot, actually.

00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:21.190
That was a moment, right?

00:12:21.210 --> 00:12:21.680
It was a moment.

00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:23.020
And you just have to lean into it.

00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.370
Matt Abrahams: Acknowledging that
there is anxiety around this and

00:12:26.380 --> 00:12:28.330
saying, "We're gonna get through
this together," but you're better

00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:29.860
off understanding and and knowing.

00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:33.240
And that way people are willing to go
that distance, and I think the point you

00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.740
made is that there's a trust that people
have in you that allows that to happen.

00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.790
I wanna deal with anxiety, specifically
about anxiety you might feel.

00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:42.400
You've been a fighter pilot, a diplomat.

00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:44.000
You're a live on-air host.

00:12:44.370 --> 00:12:47.290
for many of us, those would
be anxiety-filled situations.

00:12:47.490 --> 00:12:50.630
Do you have some things that you do
to help you manage your anxiety that

00:12:50.630 --> 00:12:52.260
others of us could benefit from?

00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.840
Kai Ryssdal: Here is my mantra, and it
makes my producers crazy when I say this

00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.750
out loud, but it is truly what I believe.

00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:03.696
If you think about how you sound In front
of a microphone, while you're sitting

00:13:03.696 --> 00:13:06.926
in front of a microphone, you're gonna
screw up how you sound on the microphone,

00:13:07.096 --> 00:13:09.416
so don't think, just talk, okay?

00:13:09.716 --> 00:13:13.186
Now, that's not to say don't be prepared.

00:13:13.466 --> 00:13:16.186
It's not to say don't think about
what you wanna get out of it before

00:13:16.186 --> 00:13:17.346
you go sit down in the studio.

00:13:17.696 --> 00:13:21.856
It's not to say don't be
your prepared best, right?

00:13:22.056 --> 00:13:25.466
But once you get there, and this goes
back to the thing we were talking about

00:13:25.466 --> 00:13:26.776
before, about being in the conversation.

00:13:26.896 --> 00:13:30.986
Once you get there, the only
way to be there is not to think

00:13:30.996 --> 00:13:31.986
about all those other things.

00:13:32.116 --> 00:13:33.326
Just be there.

00:13:33.606 --> 00:13:35.106
And have that conversation.

00:13:35.416 --> 00:13:37.476
It sounds silly, but in a
way that's calming, right?

00:13:37.476 --> 00:13:40.276
Because if you know you've done your
homework before you get into the studio,

00:13:40.646 --> 00:13:42.046
you don't need that piece of paper.

00:13:42.056 --> 00:13:43.556
You don't need the producer in that ear.

00:13:43.876 --> 00:13:47.556
Once you're there, you have to be there.

00:13:48.596 --> 00:13:50.996
And if you're thinking about all that
other crap, you're doing it wrong.

00:13:51.136 --> 00:13:53.396
Matt Abrahams: You know, a lot of
my work in the last several years

00:13:53.396 --> 00:13:55.986
has been helping people speak
in the moment and spontaneously.

00:13:56.006 --> 00:13:57.446
And it's exactly what
you're talking about.

00:13:57.616 --> 00:13:58.886
You can do a lot to prepare.

00:13:59.236 --> 00:14:02.586
People always sort of cock their
head when I say you can prepare to be

00:14:02.586 --> 00:14:06.036
spontaneous, but it's that planning and
then when you show up, you just do it.

00:14:06.036 --> 00:14:06.886
It's like an athlete.

00:14:07.206 --> 00:14:08.566
Athletes do lots of drills.

00:14:08.596 --> 00:14:10.356
Kai Ryssdal: And look, there
are some people who can actually

00:14:10.356 --> 00:14:12.906
not think about it and show up
and be spontaneous and be great.

00:14:13.346 --> 00:14:14.256
That's not most people.

00:14:14.316 --> 00:14:14.916
Matt Abrahams: That's correct.

00:14:15.016 --> 00:14:15.616
That's correct.

00:14:15.986 --> 00:14:19.236
So what helps you to manage some of
the fear is that you do a lot of prep

00:14:19.296 --> 00:14:20.186
then you just focus and come do it.

00:14:20.186 --> 00:14:22.286
Kai Ryssdal: But then I know when I
get in the room, I know what I'm doing.

00:14:22.676 --> 00:14:25.346
Matt Abrahams: So if something doesn't
go the way you want, a question doesn't

00:14:25.346 --> 00:14:29.086
come out right, you say something
that you're not happy with, in the

00:14:29.086 --> 00:14:30.716
moment, what do you do with that?

00:14:30.726 --> 00:14:32.366
And after the fact, what
do you do with that?

00:14:32.376 --> 00:14:36.396
Kai Ryssdal: So I try really hard not
to fix things after the fact, right?

00:14:36.396 --> 00:14:39.406
So when we're doing a taped interview
and I screw something up and I know

00:14:39.406 --> 00:14:42.406
I've screwed it up, I will actually
correct it in the next moment, right?

00:14:42.406 --> 00:14:44.996
The next moment I have in that
interview, just to go back

00:14:44.996 --> 00:14:46.386
and, and be honest about it.

00:14:46.586 --> 00:14:48.696
Sometimes my producer will
be on Slack and say, "Listen,

00:14:48.696 --> 00:14:50.596
it's 42, not 17," or whatever.

00:14:50.906 --> 00:14:53.036
But just fix it right there, you know?

00:14:53.086 --> 00:14:53.376
Matt Abrahams: Right.

00:14:53.661 --> 00:14:56.521
And not beat yourself up about it,
because you can then get in your head

00:14:56.521 --> 00:14:59.241
saying, "Oh, I can't believe I made
that mistake. I said the wrong number."

00:14:59.631 --> 00:15:01.321
You have to still be in that moment.

00:15:01.601 --> 00:15:04.541
Mike Krzyzewski, the famous
basketball coach taught his

00:15:04.541 --> 00:15:06.371
players this idea of next play.

00:15:06.701 --> 00:15:08.598
So you screw up, you keep going.

00:15:08.648 --> 00:15:10.598
Kai Ryssdal: So I'm a high school
and college soccer referee.

00:15:10.708 --> 00:15:11.738
And it's the same deal.

00:15:12.148 --> 00:15:16.088
Because if you don't let the mistake
that you made by not calling that

00:15:16.088 --> 00:15:19.418
foul or missing the handball or
whatever, if you don't let that go,

00:15:19.598 --> 00:15:21.828
you will surely miss the next one.

00:15:21.828 --> 00:15:24.988
And it's a 90-minute game, and you
gotta be there for all 90 minutes of it.

00:15:24.988 --> 00:15:25.958
That's exactly right.

00:15:26.078 --> 00:15:26.538
Matt Abrahams: You're a ref.

00:15:26.538 --> 00:15:29.478
I find that really interesting,
given what you do for a profession.

00:15:29.478 --> 00:15:30.968
I see some commonalities of that.

00:15:30.978 --> 00:15:36.268
But absolutely, you can carry with
you that issue and that in and

00:15:36.268 --> 00:15:39.368
of itself is a skill that's hard
for people to manage, to let go.

00:15:39.408 --> 00:15:39.918
Kai Ryssdal: It's really hard.

00:15:39.938 --> 00:15:43.098
Matt Abrahams: And I like to distinguish
between rumination and reflection.

00:15:43.148 --> 00:15:44.388
I think reflection's really important.

00:15:44.398 --> 00:15:45.668
That's how we learn and we grow.

00:15:45.978 --> 00:15:49.418
But if we ruminate in that moment it's
gonna cause everything else to tumble.

00:15:49.638 --> 00:15:51.018
You ask a lot of questions.

00:15:51.248 --> 00:15:53.158
How do you stay curious about that?

00:15:53.158 --> 00:15:57.388
I mean, it can become sort of mundane,
but you seem genuinely interested.

00:15:57.388 --> 00:16:00.088
Kai Ryssdal: I'm a genuinely curious
person and that's the rewarding

00:16:00.088 --> 00:16:00.838
part of being a journalist.

00:16:00.838 --> 00:16:03.848
My job, you know, people always say,
"Well, the host's job in a radio program

00:16:03.848 --> 00:16:06.638
is to be a, you know, a stand-in for the
audience and ask them what they wanna

00:16:06.638 --> 00:16:09.928
know." And sure, yes, to some degree,
but my job is to be respectful of the

00:16:09.928 --> 00:16:13.758
guest and respectful of the audience's
time, and to try to elicit from them,

00:16:13.938 --> 00:16:15.748
you know, things that I think the
audience is gonna find interesting.

00:16:15.748 --> 00:16:18.928
And the only way to do that is
to be curious about what they do.

00:16:19.128 --> 00:16:23.228
Sometimes it's manufactured curiosity,
and sometimes it's genuine, but the

00:16:23.228 --> 00:16:24.508
name of the game is don't let that show.

00:16:24.528 --> 00:16:28.368
Be there, ask those questions, and hope
the audience gets something out of it.

00:16:28.578 --> 00:16:30.348
Matt Abrahams: And even in those
manufactured moments, there's

00:16:30.348 --> 00:16:31.888
something in there that is interesting.

00:16:31.918 --> 00:16:32.318
Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah.

00:16:32.348 --> 00:16:35.588
There's always something that makes you
go, "Huh?" And th- which by the way, if

00:16:35.588 --> 00:16:40.328
you're listening to the answer, leads you
on a different path, and it takes you off

00:16:40.328 --> 00:16:42.028
of that prepared list of questions, right?

00:16:42.048 --> 00:16:42.498
Matt Abrahams: That's right.

00:16:42.828 --> 00:16:45.498
Is there a question that you
have that you go back to if you

00:16:45.498 --> 00:16:46.738
need a question in the moment?

00:16:46.748 --> 00:16:49.075
Do you have a favorite or
a go-to or not so much?

00:16:49.075 --> 00:16:53.228
Kai Ryssdal: Uh, I smile because me
having a, me going blank in a big

00:16:53.228 --> 00:16:57.038
interview led to one of the most revealing
answers we've ever had on Marketplace.

00:16:57.058 --> 00:16:58.148
But let me give you my go-to.

00:16:58.148 --> 00:17:01.752
My go-to for anybody is In a
business and economic situation,

00:17:02.212 --> 00:17:03.062
what's your worst nightmare?

00:17:03.272 --> 00:17:04.102
What keeps you up at night?

00:17:04.302 --> 00:17:07.082
It gives me time to think
and regroup, you know?

00:17:07.342 --> 00:17:09.892
And they will, sometimes the answers
are revealing and sometimes it's

00:17:09.912 --> 00:17:10.952
cutting room floor stuff, right?

00:17:10.972 --> 00:17:12.342
Sometimes it's good
and sometimes it's not.

00:17:12.842 --> 00:17:17.792
I was interviewing Janet Yellen once
between her time as Fed chair and when

00:17:17.792 --> 00:17:19.162
she got the job as Treasury Secretary.

00:17:19.162 --> 00:17:21.102
So it's like 2018, '19.

00:17:21.552 --> 00:17:24.372
We went to her office in
Brookings in Washington.

00:17:24.842 --> 00:17:27.272
When I go into those interviews, I
don't have a piece of paper in front

00:17:27.272 --> 00:17:31.462
of me because I like to be there and
present with the person I'm talking to.

00:17:32.462 --> 00:17:35.512
And she finished whatever answer
she had given to the question,

00:17:35.842 --> 00:17:37.182
and my mind just went blank.

00:17:37.422 --> 00:17:39.082
I just completely brain-farted.

00:17:39.772 --> 00:17:42.942
And so I looked at her and I said,
"Do you think Donald Trump understands

00:17:43.022 --> 00:17:47.602
economic policy?" And she looked at
me and said, "No, I don't." And I was

00:17:47.602 --> 00:17:50.272
like, "Oh my God." Oh my God, right?

00:17:50.512 --> 00:17:54.132
It came from me just not knowing what else
to do, so I just came up with something.

00:17:54.612 --> 00:17:56.402
So, you know, just say something, right?

00:17:56.582 --> 00:17:59.052
Matt Abrahams: The biggest fear people
report to me is the fear of blanking out.

00:17:59.542 --> 00:18:01.402
Kai Ryssdal: But it happens
to everybody, right?

00:18:01.492 --> 00:18:01.722
You know?

00:18:01.722 --> 00:18:02.292
I mean…

00:18:02.472 --> 00:18:04.332
Matt Abrahams: And the way
through it is to do what you did,

00:18:04.332 --> 00:18:04.882
just to throw out a question.

00:18:04.882 --> 00:18:05.842
Kai Ryssdal: The way
through it is through it.

00:18:05.952 --> 00:18:06.142
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:18:06.552 --> 00:18:07.302
Really interesting.

00:18:07.575 --> 00:18:10.265
I end all of my episodes
with three questions.

00:18:10.425 --> 00:18:12.205
One I'm gonna make up just for
you, and the other two I've been

00:18:12.205 --> 00:18:13.435
asking people for a long time.

00:18:13.435 --> 00:18:13.965
Are you up for that?

00:18:14.055 --> 00:18:14.325
Kai Ryssdal: Yeah.

00:18:14.965 --> 00:18:17.715
Matt Abrahams: In terms of what
you do, how do you see AI impacting

00:18:17.715 --> 00:18:20.895
communication and journalism in general?

00:18:20.975 --> 00:18:22.655
Kai Ryssdal: Well, so that's
two different things, right?

00:18:22.655 --> 00:18:26.995
The issue of communication and fakes
and all of those things is deeply

00:18:26.995 --> 00:18:30.885
troubling, not just on a journalistic
level, but on a societal level, right?

00:18:30.925 --> 00:18:35.965
On a trust and on a mutual
adherence to norms basis.

00:18:35.965 --> 00:18:37.385
I think that's really, really challenging.

00:18:37.855 --> 00:18:43.815
Journalism can be really, really helped by
artificial intelligence: analysis, trend

00:18:43.815 --> 00:18:45.765
spotting, you know, all of those things.

00:18:45.865 --> 00:18:51.009
But AI writing articles and doing
podcasts and all of which it's

00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:54.629
capable of doing is not the way to
a successful future for the United

00:18:54.629 --> 00:18:55.829
States and for the rest of the planet.

00:18:56.249 --> 00:18:59.049
You know, set aside the fact that it would
put me and probably you out of a job.

00:18:59.069 --> 00:18:59.839
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:00.159 --> 00:19:00.379
Yeah.

00:19:00.379 --> 00:19:00.799
Kai Ryssdal: You know?

00:19:01.379 --> 00:19:01.719
Matt Abrahams: Right.

00:19:01.729 --> 00:19:03.099
So use it as a tool.

00:19:03.409 --> 00:19:04.529
Kai Ryssdal: It is a tool, right?

00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:07.419
But be smart, and let's have a
human in that loop, and let's not

00:19:07.419 --> 00:19:10.579
just abrogate all responsibility
and say, "Here you go." AI's gonna

00:19:10.579 --> 00:19:12.049
take care of this," 'cause it's not.

00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:14.859
Matt Abrahams: At the end of the
day, communication is operationalized

00:19:14.899 --> 00:19:17.769
critical thinking, and if we let AI
do that, we're missing out on things.

00:19:18.889 --> 00:19:19.629
Question number two.

00:19:19.756 --> 00:19:22.166
Who's a communicator
that you admire, and why?

00:19:22.806 --> 00:19:27.516
Kai Ryssdal: The two that I've come
up with are not spoken word people.

00:19:27.596 --> 00:19:33.536
Jim Fallows, formerly at The Atlantic, now
on his own Substack, but for many years an

00:19:33.546 --> 00:19:38.316
observational journalist of international
affairs, national security, and a writer.

00:19:38.706 --> 00:19:40.676
I would read almost anything
he's written, truly.

00:19:41.066 --> 00:19:44.546
Same thing goes for John Dickerson,
late of CBS News and Slate.

00:19:44.976 --> 00:19:49.006
I just find those two guys
really interesting to read.

00:19:49.156 --> 00:19:53.666
I'm really critical of spoken word
people or television people because

00:19:53.736 --> 00:19:55.076
I'm so innately connected to that.

00:19:55.676 --> 00:19:57.346
Part of that's probably
professional jealousy.

00:19:57.476 --> 00:19:59.326
Part of it's probably envy somehow.

00:19:59.376 --> 00:20:01.196
But those are two who, who
come to the top of my head.

00:20:01.196 --> 00:20:03.346
Matt Abrahams: Is there something
that they do in their writing that's

00:20:03.376 --> 00:20:05.116
particularly, is it their thoroughness?

00:20:05.116 --> 00:20:09.406
Kai Ryssdal: They are at the same
time very concrete and very big

00:20:09.406 --> 00:20:13.246
idea, and they have the ability
to land that plane, if you will.

00:20:13.356 --> 00:20:14.246
Matt Abrahams: And that's, that's an art.

00:20:14.392 --> 00:20:17.142
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:20:17.142 --> 00:20:19.072
successful communication recipe?

00:20:19.332 --> 00:20:24.332
Kai Ryssdal: Know what you're talking
about, but not to such a degree as you

00:20:24.332 --> 00:20:26.362
are paralyzed by the information, right?

00:20:26.382 --> 00:20:28.712
It's like you use the recipe thing.

00:20:28.722 --> 00:20:30.622
I will continue that analogy.

00:20:30.762 --> 00:20:32.572
You know, sometimes you
need a pinch of salt.

00:20:32.572 --> 00:20:34.322
Sometimes you need a half
a tablespoon of salt.

00:20:34.512 --> 00:20:34.792
Whatever.

00:20:34.792 --> 00:20:35.562
Throw some salt in there, right?

00:20:35.612 --> 00:20:36.862
So know what you're talking about.

00:20:36.982 --> 00:20:40.942
Number two, some concept of brevity.

00:20:41.642 --> 00:20:44.532
If you are long-winded, you
will lose people's attention.

00:20:45.072 --> 00:20:48.552
If you are too short-winded,
you shortchange your listener

00:20:48.572 --> 00:20:49.542
and the subject at hand.

00:20:49.552 --> 00:20:54.052
So find that happy medium between
going on too long and just saying, "All

00:20:54.052 --> 00:20:57.652
right, let's go." And then finally,
I'm gonna go back to my old standby.

00:20:58.032 --> 00:20:58.952
Don't think too much.

00:20:59.592 --> 00:21:00.952
Know what you're talking about, right?

00:21:01.102 --> 00:21:03.272
Item number one on this, know
what you're talking about.

00:21:03.732 --> 00:21:07.512
And then once you know that, once
you've internalized it, then just

00:21:07.522 --> 00:21:09.092
be in the moment and just do it.

00:21:09.392 --> 00:21:10.082
Be present.

00:21:10.092 --> 00:21:11.062
Be yourself.

00:21:11.442 --> 00:21:14.722
Express yourself, and then the
audience will react to you.

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:16.740
Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff.

00:21:17.060 --> 00:21:17.910
Be concise.

00:21:18.020 --> 00:21:18.580
And be present.

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:18.980
Kai Ryssdal: Yeah.

00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:20.420
Matt Abrahams: Excellent ingredients.

00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:23.540
And helpful for not just what you
do, but for what all of us do.

00:21:23.870 --> 00:21:25.430
Kai, this has been fantastic.

00:21:25.530 --> 00:21:26.820
A fan boy moment for me.

00:21:26.820 --> 00:21:30.613
I, I really enjoy your show, and I
enjoy how you communicate and try to

00:21:30.613 --> 00:21:31.833
emulate some of the things you do.

00:21:32.133 --> 00:21:34.313
Thank you for your time,
and keep up the great work.

00:21:34.723 --> 00:21:35.443
Kai Ryssdal: Absolutely a pleasure, Matt.

00:21:35.443 --> 00:21:35.813
Thank you.

00:21:35.923 --> 00:21:37.703
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
listening to another episode of

00:21:37.713 --> 00:21:39.953
Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast.

00:21:40.373 --> 00:21:45.313
To learn more about similar communication,
listen to Peter Sagal, episode 220.

00:21:45.763 --> 00:21:50.103
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:21:50.433 --> 00:21:52.003
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:21:52.283 --> 00:21:56.953
With special thanks to the team at Spotify
Los Angeles and Podium Podcast Company.

00:21:57.373 --> 00:22:00.583
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:22:00.693 --> 00:22:02.833
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:22:02.913 --> 00:22:05.753
Also, follow us on LinkedIn,
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00:22:06.323 --> 00:22:10.153
And check out fastersmarter.io for
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00:22:10.153 --> 00:22:12.093
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00:22:12.433 --> 00:22:15.343
Please consider joining our Think
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00:22:15.343 --> 00:22:17.793
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Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning
to become part of the Think Fast,

00:22:29.253 --> 00:22:30.993
Talk Smart Learning Community