281. Be Clear, Be Concise, Be Remembered: Masters of Scale

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: Hi, Matt here.

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On Think Fast Talk Smart, we spend a
lot of time helping you communicate

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more clearly and confidently,
especially when the stakes are high.

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That's why I'm so excited today to share
a conversation I had on Masters of Scale.

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I joined host, Jeff Berman, to
talk about what it really takes

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to communicate with intention.

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Whether you're leading a team or
just trying to think on your feet.

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We get into some practical
frameworks I rely on.

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Like how to structure your
answers in high pressure moments.

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Why most people focus too much on
what they want to say instead of what

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their audience needs to hear, and how
to turn communication from a habit

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into a deliberate set of choices.

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We also talk about everything from
job interviews to big presentations.

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It's a wide ranging conversation
about how to show up and communicate

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effectively when it counts.

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Before we get into it, make sure
to follow Masters of Scale wherever

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you listen to your podcasts.

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And now enjoy our episode.

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You should start pitches and
presentations like an action movie,

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there's something there right away.

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A lot of people have long preambles.

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You need to get yourself into
the audience's perspective.

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This is a fundamental tenet.

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Jeff Berman: Matt Abrahams knows
what it takes to win over a crowd,

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close a deal, and inspire a team.

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It's not enough to have a
great product or terrific idea.

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You need to be a brilliant
communicator as well.

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Matt Abrahams: Neuroscience has
taught us emotion gets into our

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brains differently than information.

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Gets in faster, stays
longer, motivates behavior.

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So do I want people excited or concerned?

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Do I want them to have FOMO,
fear of missing out, or be

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validated, or just be confident?

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Think about that emotion.

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Jeff Berman: This is Masters of Scale.

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I'm Jeff Berman, your host.

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Today on the show communication
expert, Matt Abrahams.

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He teaches at Stanford's Business
School and has a brilliant podcast

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called Think Fast Talk Smart.

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Whether it's preparing for a big
speech, a one-on-one investor pitch, or

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anything in between, Matt has science
backed strategies to help you succeed.

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We talked about how to overcome anxiety
about public speaking, how to nail a

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job interview, and much, much more.

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Matt, welcome to Masters of Scale.

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Matt Abrahams: I'm
thrilled to be here, Jeff.

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Thank you.

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Jeff Berman: We're thrilled to have you.

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I just wanna start by asking you,
how do you describe what you do?

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Matt Abrahams: So fundamentally, I'm
somebody who's really passionate about

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communication, and really what I think
I do is I help people to hone and

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develop their communication skills.

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And a lot of that is really just asking
people to turn habits into choices.

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Most people communicate out of habit
and my job, I think, is to expose them

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to different opportunities, tools, and
techniques, and then ask them to consider

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in their situations they find themselves
in to try a different technique out.

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Jeff Berman: What led you to choose to
really specialize in this and, and to

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teach others how to be great at this?

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Matt Abrahams: The teaching bug, I
think is just inside me inherently.

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I've always loved teaching.

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I've had lots of opportunities to teach.

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After graduate school, I worked in
the corporate world for a while.

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I had to pay off some loans, and
I just saw the impact that good

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communication could have on somebody's
career and a company's trajectory.

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And how bad communication got in the way.

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And so when the opportunity presented
itself to do some teaching in this,

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actually here at Stanford through their
continuing studies program, I fell in

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love with it, and I saw the impact it
had and I really enjoyed learning from

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my students and have never turned back.

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Jeff Berman: I started my
career as a public defender.

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Um, not the obvious place
to start for what I do now.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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Jeff Berman: And I'll never forget, we
had one lawyer who, quite experienced,

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been doing this for decades, who told us
that they went into the, the restroom and

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threw up every single day before court.

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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Jeff Berman: And it really just struck
me as like that you've got literally

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decades of experience and you're still
showing up with that level of, of nerve.

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As, as you work with people on
communication, particularly on public

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communication, how common is this, this,
this like nervousness and what do you

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help people understand that they can
do to be less nervous, to walk in with

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more confidence in, in these rooms?

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Matt Abrahams: So anxiety around
communication looms large.

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We have some evidence that suggests up
to 85% of people feel anxiety, and quite

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frankly, I think the other 15% are lying.

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Those of us who study it have found it
in every culture we've studied, we find

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it develops around the same time, around
when early kid, when kids become early

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teenagers, is when it really becomes
more prominent and stays that way.

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So we believe it's part
of the human condition.

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There's an evolutionary
explanation for it.

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Your relative status in
a group matters a lot.

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Not today, and I'm not talking
who drives the fanciest car and

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has the most social media likes.

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But when we were a species hanging
out in groups of 150 people

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during our early evolution, your
relative status meant everything.

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And it meant access to resources
like food, reproduction.

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And if you did anything that
jeopardized that, it could have

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quite a, a significant impact.

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So it's wired into us.

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Now, that doesn't mean that
we can't learn to manage it.

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I spend a lot of my time helping
people learn to manage anxiety.

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And you can do it both by focusing
on the symptoms and the sources,

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but it is ubiquitous and it is
something we have to work at.

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But over time we can manage it.

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I don't think we can
ever truly overcome it.

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As your example shows, having
anxiety tells us that what we're

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doing is important, gives us energy,
helps us focus, but we have to

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manage it so it doesn't manage us.

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Jeff Berman: Are there truths about
managing anxiety that apply to 90 X

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percent of the population, or is it
really specific to the individual?

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Matt Abrahams: Everybody is different
in terms of what their triggers

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might be or where the sources are,
but there are some things you can do

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that seem to work for most people.

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I'll give you a few examples.

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Deep belly breathing really can help.

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It slows down your
autonomic nervous system.

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It slows down your breath rate,
it lowers your, your breathing so

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that your voice sounds more normal.

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So breath work seems
to be really important.

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And what's key is the exhalation.

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It's not the inhale.

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It's the exhale.

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So I like to joke, the rule of thumb or
rule of lung, is you want your exhale

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to be twice as long as your inhale.

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And if you do a two, a few of those
breaths, just two or three, you'll

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actually really feel different and better.

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The other thing that gets a
lot of people is shakiness.

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That's adrenaline.

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Adrenaline's role is to move
us from threat to safety.

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So if you move with purpose, you can
give that adrenaline a place to go.

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So if you're standing up in
front of a room, step towards the

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audience with a welcoming gesture.

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If you're sitting like this lean
forward, gesture broadly, that

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gives the shakiness a place to go.

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And for most people, those two things
alone can help many of the symptoms abate.

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A lot of people just
get inside themselves.

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When they get nervous, they get
very still, and then somehow

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magically they expect to be able
to go from silence to brilliance.

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But if you watch athletes, actors,
dancers, there's always movement.

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There's always warming up that goes on.

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My anxiety management plan, and I
encourage all of my students and

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everybody that I coach to develop their
own unique plan, I do three things.

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First, I take some deep belly breaths.

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Second, I do my best to interact with
somebody, to have a conversation.

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It gets me focused.

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If it's somebody who's part of the
audience, even better, because I realize

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these are normal human beings who, who
want to learn something from me rather

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than judges who are there to evaluate.

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And then I say tongue twisters.

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Tongue twisters, I know it sounds silly,
but what it does is it warms up my

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voice and you can't say a tongue twister
right, and not be in the present moment.

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Nobody ever sees me do this,
but it's a way that I warm up.

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In fact, before we started today,
I excused myself and did a few

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tongue twisters to get myself ready.

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Jeff Berman: Do you have a favorite one?

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Matt Abrahams: I do.

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But I'll only share it with
you if you do it with me.

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Jeff Berman: I'll do it with you.

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Sure.

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Matt Abrahams: Okay.

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Now, the reason I like this one
is it's short, and if you say

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it wrong, you say a dirty word.

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Jeff Berman: Okay.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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I slid a sheet.

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Jeff Berman: I slid a sheet.

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Matt Abrahams: A sheet I slid.

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Jeff Berman: A sheet I slid.

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Matt Abrahams: And on
that slitted sheet I sit.

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Jeff Berman: And on that slid sheet I sit.

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Matt Abrahams: See where
the naughty word comes up?

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Jeff Berman: Right at the end.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah, exactly.

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Jeff Berman: You wanna slip an H in there.

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Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right.

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And I'll do that three times
and it gets me present,

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focused, and it, it warms me up.

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Jeff Berman: Amazing.

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Matt Abrahams: I like to say there
are only three ways to get good

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at communication, repetition,
reflection, and feedback

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Jeff Berman: And repetition.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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You got, you gotta do it a couple times.

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So you gotta, nobody ever got good
at speaking by thinking about it.

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You have to do it.

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That's where Toastmasters, taking
classes, those things really help.

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You have to reflect.

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Most people are just so glad to
be done with it they move on.

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You know, there's that definition
of insanity doing the same

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thing over and over again.

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Every night before I go to bed, I
spend one minute writing down one thing

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that went well in my communication
and one thing that didn't each day.

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And on Sunday, I spend five minutes
going back and reflecting and I make a

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plan to address the, an issue each week.

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I'm not saying I'm a great communicator.

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I am certainly a better communicator
because I do that reflection.

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And then you have to get feedback.

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We are not the best judges
of our communication.

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I make my MBA students digitally
record themselves and they watch.

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It's painful.

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Jeff Berman: It's the worst.

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Matt Abrahams: But they learn so much.

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I tell everybody, it's
like going to the dentist.

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We don't like going, but
we're really glad we've been.

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And not only do they
watch it and listen once.

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They then watch it without sound,
and then they listen without video.

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So they're seeing the different
channels and that actually highlights

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more of what they're working on.

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Jeff Berman: Given how central
communication is to everything, right?

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To relationship building, to presentations
to, why, why don't we spend more time

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teaching this, especially starting early?

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Like why isn't this more
core to our curricula?

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Matt Abrahams: So, I'm heartened,
at least here in the United States,

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that we're seeing a bit more of that.

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I look at what my kids went
through and I have a young nephew

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and what he's going through.

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Much different than what
you and I went through.

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And we're of the same vintage.

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So I think there is a recognition
that communication is important.

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Coordination of activity is important.

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I think part of it is that we just do it
naturally, and most people, by the age of

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one, are communicating in some way, and we
just feel like it's just something we do.

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But when you think about the impact
communication can have, it becomes

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very clear that it's something
we should study and look at.

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You know, when I talk to people who've
graduated from our MBA program, one of

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the things they will say is either they're
so thankful they took communication

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training, 'cause they see how valuable
it is in their work life, or they

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really wish they would've taken more.

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So it, it's one of these things
where we take it for granted, but

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then when we get exposed to it, we
really see the value that it brings.

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Jeff Berman: Yeah, and my Rabbi, Rabbi
Sharon Brous, wrote a book a couple

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of years ago called The Amen Effect.

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It's a beautiful book, but there's a
little anecdote in the book about going

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to the grocery store and going to the
self-checkout and looking up and seeing

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the person working at a cash register
and going over, switching, going over and

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having that moment of human interaction.

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And it completely changing
her day as a consequence.

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As you're engaging with college
students, what are you asking them to

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do, encouraging them to do in their
daily lives where they can practice

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being better communicators and in the
process, perhaps build more community,

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build more civility, more connection?

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Matt Abrahams: So a few things.

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One, I ask them just to observe
others' communication and see

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what is it that people are doing.

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We, we can be so internal focused
that we don't see that, you know, that

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person pauses before they speak and
that gives a little extra space for the

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other person to complete their thought.

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Or like my mother-in-law would do, she
was a black belt in small talk and she

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would, she would just say, tell me more.

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And just noticing the subtle little
things that people do to encourage

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communication or shut down communication.

00:11:38.214 --> 00:11:39.685
So part of it is observation.

00:11:39.985 --> 00:11:43.344
The other part is really
helping people listen better.

00:11:44.035 --> 00:11:47.425
Most of us are not good listeners,
so really teaching listening

00:11:47.425 --> 00:11:50.305
skills, which force people to
be more present and connective.

00:11:50.785 --> 00:11:52.225
And then paraphrasing skills.

00:11:52.225 --> 00:11:55.885
So it's not enough just to get your
point across, but when you hear

00:11:55.885 --> 00:11:58.344
somebody else's point, demonstrate
that you heard that point.

00:11:58.344 --> 00:12:02.805
So giving them tools and techniques and
then encouraging them to practice and

00:12:02.805 --> 00:12:04.635
then come back and reflect and report out.

00:12:04.905 --> 00:12:08.745
And it's amazing where students will
say, I learned so much more from

00:12:08.775 --> 00:12:12.645
this person I was getting to know
because I listened and I paraphrased.

00:12:12.645 --> 00:12:15.855
And that gave the other person
the confidence to say more.

00:12:16.155 --> 00:12:19.314
So it's helping them, scaffolding
them, to a point where that

00:12:19.314 --> 00:12:22.405
they can feel more connected and
comfortable doing those things.

00:12:24.685 --> 00:12:25.285
Jeff Berman: Still ahead.

00:12:25.344 --> 00:12:28.974
More with Matt Abrahams on how
to craft the perfect pitch.

00:12:44.385 --> 00:12:46.155
Welcome back to Masters of Scale.

00:12:46.155 --> 00:12:50.175
You can find this conversation and much
more on our YouTube channel, and be

00:12:50.175 --> 00:12:53.385
sure to check out the link in our show
notes to subscribe to our newsletter.

00:12:55.425 --> 00:12:59.055
I wanted to run Matt through a set
of scenarios you might be facing

00:12:59.115 --> 00:13:02.535
and see how we can get better at
communicating in each one of them.

00:13:02.954 --> 00:13:06.015
We started with pitching
a new startup concept.

00:13:08.090 --> 00:13:11.060
When someone's taking an idea out
to market and raising money for the

00:13:11.060 --> 00:13:15.140
first time, or trying to persuade
an advisor to come on, what are the

00:13:15.140 --> 00:13:20.480
mistakes that you most commonly see
and where are the opportunities to get

00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.620
better that, that are just the lowest
hanging fruit to coach people up on.

00:13:25.135 --> 00:13:27.925
Matt Abrahams: So you and I both know
Guy Kawasaki, so the, the first mistake

00:13:27.925 --> 00:13:29.854
people make is they take too long, right?

00:13:29.885 --> 00:13:33.145
I love his jet fighter
versus a big Boeing analogy.

00:13:33.145 --> 00:13:35.454
It takes a long time for
a big plane to take off.

00:13:35.454 --> 00:13:36.505
You need to take off quickly.

00:13:36.505 --> 00:13:39.145
So a lot of people gotta
get to the punch first.

00:13:39.444 --> 00:13:43.165
I like to tell people you should start
pitches and presentations like an action

00:13:43.165 --> 00:13:44.944
movie, there's something there right away.

00:13:45.474 --> 00:13:47.005
A lot of people have long preambles.

00:13:47.810 --> 00:13:51.199
You need to get yourself into
the audience's perspective.

00:13:51.199 --> 00:13:52.609
This is a fundamental tenet.

00:13:52.609 --> 00:13:55.880
I, I host a podcast, Think Fast
Talk Smart, all about communication.

00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:59.060
The number one bit of advice
across hundreds of guests is

00:13:59.060 --> 00:14:00.489
always know your audience.

00:14:00.869 --> 00:14:04.760
A lot of people craft a pitch, and
that same pitch they give everywhere.

00:14:04.819 --> 00:14:06.229
You have to adjust and adapt.

00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:08.744
What's relevant and salient to
the people you're talking to?

00:14:09.694 --> 00:14:14.555
You also need to focus on benefits and
salience, not features and functions.

00:14:14.555 --> 00:14:17.855
That's, many people get so
immersed in what's going on.

00:14:18.515 --> 00:14:22.235
My mother has a saying, I think everybody
should live by, it applies to pitches,

00:14:22.385 --> 00:14:24.935
tell the time, don't build the clock.

00:14:25.295 --> 00:14:27.725
Many people say much
more than they need to.

00:14:28.084 --> 00:14:30.175
Get to the punch more quickly.

00:14:30.775 --> 00:14:32.515
And then finally, show don't tell.

00:14:32.515 --> 00:14:33.655
Show what this means.

00:14:33.655 --> 00:14:36.055
Don't just tell us all the
different features and functions.

00:14:36.325 --> 00:14:38.065
What, what does this look like?

00:14:38.065 --> 00:14:42.355
If you can demonstrate it, demonstrate it,
but help us in our mind see what it is.

00:14:42.655 --> 00:14:46.135
If you can do those things,
you'll engage people more.

00:14:46.315 --> 00:14:48.805
And then there's one thing that I,
I'd love to get your opinion on.

00:14:49.105 --> 00:14:53.455
When I see pitches, a lot of people put
their bios and their experience upfront.

00:14:54.445 --> 00:14:55.465
I'm not a big fan of that.

00:14:56.245 --> 00:14:59.880
I, I, I want people to tell me
what the idea is, what the value

00:14:59.880 --> 00:15:02.939
is, and then let me know who you
are versus who are you upfront.

00:15:03.689 --> 00:15:05.670
I don't know if you have
a, an opinion on that.

00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:09.270
Everybody I talk to thinks the,
the bio company slide needs

00:15:09.270 --> 00:15:10.680
to go in a different place.

00:15:10.709 --> 00:15:14.910
Jeff Berman: Well, there's a fundamental
tension for me in a lot of these

00:15:14.910 --> 00:15:19.395
conversations that, that are pitch
conversations, ultimately, because,

00:15:19.415 --> 00:15:23.585
yes, jet fighter get to it, be adept.

00:15:23.675 --> 00:15:27.545
I, by the way, as a way to get a
meeting, I often say, look, can we

00:15:27.545 --> 00:15:29.405
please set 30 minutes or an hour?

00:15:29.495 --> 00:15:32.975
But if in 5 or 10 minutes you don't
think this is gonna be valuable for

00:15:32.975 --> 00:15:36.785
you, kick me out and I'll, I will
with a smile, shake your hand and give

00:15:36.785 --> 00:15:38.744
you 45, 50 minutes back in your day.

00:15:38.835 --> 00:15:42.055
Because if in 5 minutes we're not,
we're not in it, it's probably not

00:15:42.055 --> 00:15:43.445
gonna happen anyway, most likely.

00:15:43.564 --> 00:15:48.064
But the, the tension for me, and, and I
learned this, my first job in the private

00:15:48.064 --> 00:15:50.124
sector was at MySpace of all places.

00:15:50.594 --> 00:15:55.055
And ultimately I was overseeing
the sales function and I hired an

00:15:55.055 --> 00:15:58.175
absolutely incredible sales leader,
a guy named Andy Wheatland, who

00:15:58.175 --> 00:15:59.675
I went out on a sales call with.

00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:04.990
And we sat down and he didn't pull
up a deck and he didn't start by

00:16:05.020 --> 00:16:06.850
saying what we're here to talk about.

00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.640
He started by asking them
how they were doing and what

00:16:09.640 --> 00:16:10.750
was keeping them up at night.

00:16:11.790 --> 00:16:17.710
And got them talking about their
problems and 5, 6, 7 minutes in, he's

00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:21.710
completely adjusted the conversation
to speak to what their needs are.

00:16:22.079 --> 00:16:26.200
And so that tension is often you walk
in the room and you don't know your

00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.740
audience as well as you should, so
how do you get them in conversation

00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:33.580
so you can learn what you're actually
want, want to be speaking to?

00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:38.580
Matt Abrahams: I think you ask questions,
you do your homework, you do your cyber

00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:42.180
stalking, you're checking out their
LinkedIn profiles, you're, you're looking

00:16:42.180 --> 00:16:47.550
at their blog posts and, and Substacks,
but you, you come in inquisitive.

00:16:47.550 --> 00:16:51.120
I think curiosity is the best place
to come in in most communications,

00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.680
especially in pitching situations.

00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:54.450
You reflect what you're hearing.

00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.410
That's where paraphrasing comes in,
and you're watching for nonverbals,

00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:00.660
and you're trying to see how are
they responding and reacting.

00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:03.210
Nonverbals are not always the
most accurate, but, but paying

00:17:03.210 --> 00:17:04.619
attention can be very helpful.

00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:08.280
And then start down a path
and test and check and see if,

00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:09.660
if this is a value to them.

00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.190
One of the things you said that I really
wanna emphasize is setting expectations

00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:14.970
at the beginning of the meeting.

00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:16.710
When you said, hey, if we're
not connecting in 10 minutes.

00:17:17.435 --> 00:17:20.615
Most people don't do a good job
of expectation setting leading

00:17:20.615 --> 00:17:21.875
up to meetings and events.

00:17:22.205 --> 00:17:22.985
I'll give you an example.

00:17:22.985 --> 00:17:26.435
I think the single best expectation
setting tool for communication that

00:17:26.435 --> 00:17:29.195
we seldom use is the calendar invite.

00:17:29.315 --> 00:17:32.855
We all send invites out with URLs,
you can do so much in a calendar

00:17:32.855 --> 00:17:34.265
invite to set expectations.

00:17:34.415 --> 00:17:37.205
I challenge you the next time
you schedule a meeting, don't put

00:17:37.205 --> 00:17:38.615
the word meeting in the title.

00:17:38.765 --> 00:17:41.525
It forces you to make it something
that's more active and engaging.

00:17:42.020 --> 00:17:46.879
Put your expectations, your goals, maybe
even your, your behaviors that you want

00:17:46.879 --> 00:17:50.240
people to have or the tools you intend
to use in the meeting, in the invite.

00:17:50.510 --> 00:17:52.070
So people come in, ready to go.

00:17:52.370 --> 00:17:55.610
I put in every invite I have for every
meeting I run either a question that

00:17:55.610 --> 00:17:59.419
we're gonna start with discussing or
a challenge that I want us to address.

00:17:59.899 --> 00:18:02.899
Most people start meetings by
reviewing the previous meeting,

00:18:02.899 --> 00:18:04.070
which I think is ludicrous.

00:18:04.219 --> 00:18:06.350
Most people don't like going to
meetings, so I'm gonna start this

00:18:06.350 --> 00:18:09.439
meeting by reminding you about the
previous meeting you didn't wanna be in.

00:18:09.679 --> 00:18:12.320
Let's do something active to get
engaged, and then if we have to

00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:13.580
talk about the previous meeting.

00:18:13.939 --> 00:18:16.189
So expectation setting is critical.

00:18:16.699 --> 00:18:19.370
In the moment determining who your
audience is and what you can do

00:18:19.370 --> 00:18:23.270
to help them is critical, but it
involves listening and being silent.

00:18:23.270 --> 00:18:25.310
And many of us, because
we're excited, we're nervous.

00:18:25.790 --> 00:18:26.929
That's hard for us to do.

00:18:27.020 --> 00:18:29.480
Jeff Berman: To your point,
most of us hate meetings.

00:18:29.570 --> 00:18:31.159
They're, they're a time suck.

00:18:31.159 --> 00:18:33.409
It feels like I only need to be
here for 5 or 10 minutes, but we

00:18:33.409 --> 00:18:34.850
set it for half an hour, an hour.

00:18:35.659 --> 00:18:41.625
What, especially focusing on an internal
meeting, what makes for a great meeting?

00:18:42.225 --> 00:18:45.465
Matt Abrahams: I think a good meeting
is where people feel that value has been

00:18:45.465 --> 00:18:49.155
provided to them and that they've had an
opportunity to contribute and be heard.

00:18:49.695 --> 00:18:53.054
And that boils down to a lot of
the pre-work that has to be done.

00:18:53.054 --> 00:18:54.375
Do you actually need the meeting?

00:18:54.764 --> 00:18:57.195
Meetings are often band-aids
for bigger problems.

00:18:57.225 --> 00:19:00.554
Uh, when I come in and do some of my
consulting work, one of the first things

00:19:00.554 --> 00:19:04.684
I'll do is a communication audit and
I look for the number of meetings that

00:19:04.894 --> 00:19:08.390
people have and who, how many people and
who are those people in those meetings?

00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.800
And it's often a canary in the coal mine
for, for a bigger, more challenging issue.

00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:15.560
So crafting purposeful meetings
that have a clear goal.

00:19:15.560 --> 00:19:17.270
If there's not a need
for meeting, don't do it.

00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:20.120
Meetings don't have to be
30 minutes and 60 minutes.

00:19:20.120 --> 00:19:23.690
They can be 17 minutes,
take meetings outside, walk.

00:19:23.695 --> 00:19:25.820
Uh, there are lots of evidence
that there are ways to be

00:19:25.820 --> 00:19:27.200
more productive in meetings.

00:19:27.800 --> 00:19:31.580
So really being value
driven, having expectations.

00:19:32.085 --> 00:19:35.475
Maybe even seeding some ideas
with people to contribute.

00:19:35.475 --> 00:19:38.295
So I, if I have a big meeting coming up,
I might come to you and I say, I know

00:19:38.295 --> 00:19:39.435
you're really passionate about this.

00:19:39.615 --> 00:19:42.495
I'd love to make sure you bring up
the points you're concerned with.

00:19:42.855 --> 00:19:44.565
Giving people permission to contribute.

00:19:44.565 --> 00:19:48.195
So there's a lot of work that goes
into a meeting before it happens.

00:19:48.195 --> 00:19:52.034
I actually think facilitation,
meeting, leading meetings, moderating

00:19:52.034 --> 00:19:55.305
panels, anytime you're facilitating
others, communicating what you're

00:19:55.305 --> 00:19:58.095
doing right now, I think it's
the hardest communication skill.

00:19:58.095 --> 00:20:00.465
'Cause you have to manage
so much simultaneously.

00:20:01.050 --> 00:20:01.919
Jeff Berman: Why is it so hard?

00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:04.310
Matt Abrahams: Well, in this
case, it's just you and me.

00:20:04.310 --> 00:20:06.540
But imagine a meeting where
there are multiple opinions.

00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:08.100
I've got time, I've got goals.

00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:10.230
I've gotta make sure that this
connects to something else.

00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:15.030
There's a lot going on that I
have to navigate through and make

00:20:15.030 --> 00:20:18.540
people feel psychologically safe,
make sure people are contributing.

00:20:18.540 --> 00:20:20.250
I should be paraphrasing and connecting.

00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:23.820
There's just a lot going on at
the same time, and that's why many

00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:25.139
people find it very difficult.

00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:29.700
So a good meeting is a meeting
that's well thought through, and that

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:33.480
people feel like they have presence
and are getting value from it.

00:20:33.810 --> 00:20:36.840
Some of the biggest mistakes people
make is they don't plan, they don't

00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:41.340
listen, they don't connect the dots
of what they're trying to accomplish

00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:43.629
to what has been accomplished,
what needs to be accomplished.

00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:47.430
And they, they schedule too many meetings
or spend too much time in the meetings.

00:20:47.430 --> 00:20:51.930
So it really, if you are mindful of the
experience and plan it, you can actually

00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:53.610
have people excited to come to meetings.

00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:53.880
Jeff Berman: Yeah.

00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:57.870
You said earlier that repetition
is one of the, the core elements

00:20:57.870 --> 00:21:02.370
of effective communication, and
I think for so many leaders, they

00:21:02.370 --> 00:21:05.190
get tired of hearing themselves say
the same thing over and over again.

00:21:05.659 --> 00:21:09.080
And I'll never forget Jeff Weiner said,
until I start hearing my team say it back

00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:10.909
to me, I know I haven't said it enough.

00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:13.730
But there is that tension of like,
I, I know you all have heard me

00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:17.000
say this 37 times, I kind of feel
like I should acknowledge that,

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:18.310
but I don't wanna acknowledge that.

00:21:18.830 --> 00:21:21.139
How do you help leaders get
better at, at this piece of it?

00:21:21.889 --> 00:21:23.149
Matt Abrahams: So part
of it is calling it out.

00:21:23.149 --> 00:21:25.860
Part of your job as a leader is to repeat.

00:21:26.100 --> 00:21:28.065
And the goal is to get alignment.

00:21:28.274 --> 00:21:31.935
So repetition is in service of something
and reminding yourself of that.

00:21:32.325 --> 00:21:34.754
That said, there are lots
of ways to repeat things

00:21:35.205 --> 00:21:36.435
without saying the same thing.

00:21:36.465 --> 00:21:39.615
You can give examples, you can use
analogies, you can tell stories.

00:21:39.915 --> 00:21:43.450
So find different vehicles to
communicate the same message.

00:21:43.525 --> 00:21:46.480
Jeff Berman: I, I want to set up another
scenario where communication can be

00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.670
complicated and ask for both sides of it.

00:21:48.670 --> 00:21:49.540
It's a job interview.

00:21:49.570 --> 00:21:50.080
Matt Abrahams: Yes.

00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:52.960
Jeff Berman: From both the candidate
and from the hiring side, again, what

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.990
are the, the most common mistakes
and, and what do you, what are

00:21:55.990 --> 00:21:57.490
the most coachable opportunities?

00:21:58.030 --> 00:22:01.180
Matt Abrahams: Let me start with just the
methodology I recommend people follow.

00:22:01.185 --> 00:22:04.420
When you go into a job interview
prior to getting there, obviously

00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:09.430
you should do your work and research
on the organization and the role.

00:22:10.514 --> 00:22:13.185
Come up with themes that you
wanna make sure you get across.

00:22:13.185 --> 00:22:16.725
Maybe one of my themes is that
I have deep expertise in this.

00:22:17.294 --> 00:22:21.254
With each theme you come up with,
come up with support of that theme.

00:22:21.254 --> 00:22:22.905
A support might be a story you tell.

00:22:23.115 --> 00:22:24.284
Maybe it's a testimonial.

00:22:24.284 --> 00:22:26.355
You won an award, or
your boss said something.

00:22:26.564 --> 00:22:27.435
Maybe it's some data.

00:22:27.435 --> 00:22:29.865
You saved X amount of money
over this amount of time.

00:22:30.284 --> 00:22:33.105
So you have different types
of support for your themes.

00:22:33.405 --> 00:22:36.675
So when I'm in the interview and
you ask me a question, I think to

00:22:36.675 --> 00:22:40.215
myself, that's a great opportunity
for me to pull in this theme.

00:22:40.275 --> 00:22:44.385
And because I have the support already
there, I'm just assembling my answer.

00:22:44.655 --> 00:22:48.585
You know, if you go to a fancy restaurant,
they don't make every meal from scratch.

00:22:48.585 --> 00:22:50.865
They have things prepared
and they assemble it quickly.

00:22:51.105 --> 00:22:53.925
If you can do that, that means
you are more present and connected

00:22:53.925 --> 00:22:56.535
in the interview, 'cause I don't
have to sit there and figure

00:22:56.535 --> 00:22:57.945
out everything from scratch.

00:22:58.514 --> 00:23:00.935
I'm a huge fan of structure,
structures and frameworks.

00:23:01.615 --> 00:23:03.935
They are great ways to structure answers.

00:23:03.935 --> 00:23:09.215
One of my favorite is what
I call ADD for adding value.

00:23:09.815 --> 00:23:12.935
Answer the question, give a detailed
example, describe the relevance.

00:23:12.935 --> 00:23:14.705
So if you ask me a
question, I'll answer it.

00:23:14.705 --> 00:23:16.865
I'll give you an example and
I'll describe the relevance.

00:23:17.405 --> 00:23:22.325
In so doing, I have just made it
easier for you, the interviewer, to

00:23:22.415 --> 00:23:24.455
see the value I can bring to see that.

00:23:24.455 --> 00:23:28.445
I can think quickly on my feet, and I
give you an example that's concrete.

00:23:29.375 --> 00:23:33.225
For giggles, imagine you're
interviewing me to be a teacher

00:23:33.225 --> 00:23:35.774
of strategic communication at
Stanford's Business School, so you're

00:23:35.774 --> 00:23:37.195
interviewing me for the job I have.

00:23:37.504 --> 00:23:39.795
Because at least that way I
might have some qualifications.

00:23:40.045 --> 00:23:41.774
What might be a reasonable
question you ask?

00:23:42.105 --> 00:23:43.185
Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you?

00:23:43.575 --> 00:23:44.445
Matt Abrahams: Why should we not hire you?

00:23:44.445 --> 00:23:45.135
Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you?

00:23:47.295 --> 00:23:52.695
Matt Abrahams: One of the things
that I have a tendency to do is to

00:23:52.845 --> 00:24:00.030
over index on applied information and
some of our students would benefit

00:24:00.030 --> 00:24:03.090
from more theoretical approaches.

00:24:04.110 --> 00:24:08.340
For example, when I teach crisis
management, I'm teaching very

00:24:08.340 --> 00:24:13.740
specific messaging techniques,
not the theories as much.

00:24:14.310 --> 00:24:19.560
So if you are looking for somebody
who is theoretically oriented, I'm

00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:22.650
not that candidate, but if you want
your students leaving knowing how to

00:24:22.650 --> 00:24:26.040
communicate and having practiced it,
then I'm the person you should hire.

00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:29.830
Answer, detailed example,
describe the relevance.

00:24:30.830 --> 00:24:34.140
So I didn't know the question you
were gonna ask, but I knew exactly

00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:37.530
how I was gonna answer it, and
that makes life easier for me.

00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:40.170
Jeff Berman: What's the question I should
have asked you in that mock job interview?

00:24:40.890 --> 00:24:41.700
Matt Abrahams: That's the question.

00:24:42.165 --> 00:24:43.275
Jeff Berman: That's, that's it.

00:24:43.275 --> 00:24:43.335
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:24:43.515 --> 00:24:46.455
So I, I always recommend that
somebody have a question.

00:24:46.515 --> 00:24:48.285
'Cause they always say, do
you have any questions for me?

00:24:48.285 --> 00:24:50.355
And a lot of people say, no,
no, I, and there's no way,

00:24:50.355 --> 00:24:51.270
you have lots of questions.

00:24:51.270 --> 00:24:53.565
So I will always ask that, what's
the question I should have asked?

00:24:53.565 --> 00:24:56.655
Or I say, what do you wish you would've
known when you were interviewing?

00:24:57.165 --> 00:24:58.695
Or, what's the question
you would've asked?

00:24:59.085 --> 00:25:03.405
And in my own life, when I've done that,
I have received such great insight.

00:25:04.105 --> 00:25:08.125
And when I've been on the receiving end
of that, as a hiring manager, it showed

00:25:08.125 --> 00:25:11.544
me that this is somebody who really wants
to understand the inner workings and

00:25:11.544 --> 00:25:13.885
the details, which made a mark on me.

00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:18.270
As an interviewer, my job is to figure
out, not just if you're the best

00:25:18.270 --> 00:25:19.770
candidate, but are you a good fit.

00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:24.270
So I am giving you space to share
information with me, and I'm asking

00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:28.470
follow-up questions because that lets
me really see your depth of thought.

00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:33.510
And uh, uh, the last bonus or, or bit
of advice I'll give is leverage AI.

00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:36.990
LLMs can be really helpful,
not to help you create answers.

00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:38.100
That's not what I'm looking for.

00:25:38.250 --> 00:25:42.930
But to help you get questions to
practice, all athletes do a lot of drills.

00:25:43.455 --> 00:25:45.764
All musicians do a lot of scales.

00:25:46.425 --> 00:25:47.415
We can do the same thing.

00:25:47.415 --> 00:25:49.995
Go to your favorite LLM,
say, I am interviewing for

00:25:49.995 --> 00:25:51.615
this role in this company.

00:25:51.675 --> 00:25:54.524
Generate five questions for
me as those questions come

00:25:54.524 --> 00:25:55.875
up, practice answering them.

00:25:56.175 --> 00:25:57.405
That's how you get better at it.

00:25:57.705 --> 00:26:01.480
Jeff Berman: We've been focused
more on small group communication.

00:26:01.540 --> 00:26:04.180
I want to go back to bigger stages.

00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:08.320
Um, you're standing in front of a room
of hundreds or even thousands of people.

00:26:08.679 --> 00:26:12.370
If it is the National Association of
Realtors, you probably have a pretty

00:26:12.370 --> 00:26:15.070
good idea of your audience and you
can, you can speak to your audience,

00:26:15.070 --> 00:26:18.979
but often leaders are speaking before
much more diverse groups of folks.

00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.300
What do people not get right in those
rooms and, and what's coachable there?

00:26:23.485 --> 00:26:24.595
Matt Abrahams: There are
several things I could say.

00:26:24.595 --> 00:26:26.815
First and foremost, have a clear goal.

00:26:27.145 --> 00:26:28.495
Understand what you're trying to do.

00:26:28.495 --> 00:26:31.855
To me, a goal has three parts,
information, emotion, and action.

00:26:32.185 --> 00:26:35.455
What information do you wanna get across
and based on what you know about your

00:26:35.455 --> 00:26:37.135
audience, what's the best way to do that?

00:26:38.090 --> 00:26:39.020
What's the feeling?

00:26:39.080 --> 00:26:40.970
A lot of us don't think about feeling.

00:26:40.970 --> 00:26:42.740
We, we just wanna get
through the information.

00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:45.980
But we've known for millennia,
thousands of years that emotion matters.

00:26:46.189 --> 00:26:48.320
Neuroscience has taught us
emotion gets into our brains

00:26:48.350 --> 00:26:50.270
differently than information.

00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.730
Gets in faster, stays
longer, motivates behavior.

00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:54.830
So do I want people excited or concerned?

00:26:55.345 --> 00:26:58.765
Do I want them to have FOMO, fear
of missing out, or be validated

00:26:58.765 --> 00:27:00.385
or, or just be confident.

00:27:00.655 --> 00:27:03.415
Think about that emotion
and then is there an action?

00:27:03.475 --> 00:27:05.875
Most communication, especially
for leaders up in front of

00:27:05.875 --> 00:27:07.375
big groups, there's an action.

00:27:07.555 --> 00:27:08.275
What is it?

00:27:08.275 --> 00:27:10.225
Is it clear and is it measurable?

00:27:10.465 --> 00:27:14.095
You know, I coach a lot of entrepreneurs
and during their pitches they'll say

00:27:14.095 --> 00:27:15.835
things like, I want your support.

00:27:16.889 --> 00:27:17.760
What does that mean?

00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:18.629
Do you want to check?

00:27:18.629 --> 00:27:20.879
Do you want a social
media like, be specific.

00:27:20.879 --> 00:27:23.669
So having a clear goal helps you focus.

00:27:23.669 --> 00:27:26.280
That's the number one place I
think people make a mistake.

00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:31.169
They aren't clear, or the person who
wrote their presentation was clear,

00:27:31.169 --> 00:27:34.500
but they weren't clear because a lot of
leaders don't write their own content.

00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:35.630
And that, that can be a problem.

00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:39.210
You need to, if you're not writing your
own content, you need to be very closely

00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:42.419
aligned with the people who are, and
they need to understand your process.

00:27:42.899 --> 00:27:45.210
The other thing that people
do is they don't practice.

00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:47.200
Think about a standup comedian.

00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.080
How many times does a standup
comedian work on their routine?

00:27:50.379 --> 00:27:53.710
I coach some of the most senior
leaders here in this valley,

00:27:54.100 --> 00:27:55.450
and they'll say, I got it.

00:27:55.570 --> 00:27:56.440
I say, oh, how much you practice?

00:27:56.470 --> 00:27:58.060
I, I read the slides last night.

00:27:58.735 --> 00:28:00.760
You know, you, you need to live it.

00:28:00.790 --> 00:28:01.780
You need to speak it out.

00:28:01.780 --> 00:28:04.420
I don't know about you, but in
my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent.

00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:06.370
When I open up my mouth,
I'm not always as lucky.

00:28:06.370 --> 00:28:10.480
So getting that practice in and
practice in the environment, where

00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.660
you move around the stage, you feel
the lights, you hear the sound of

00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:15.610
your voice through the speakers.

00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:20.980
Jeff Berman: One of the paradoxes of
the modern moment is it has never been

00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:23.980
easier to reach people because there
are more platforms and there are open

00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:27.639
platforms, but it's never been more
difficult to build real audience because

00:28:27.639 --> 00:28:31.750
it's so crowded, and AI's only making
that more, more complicated by the day.

00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:36.899
Whatever you may think of his politics,
it has been said of Zohran Mamdani

00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:42.830
that he's just as good in a 32nd social
media hit as he is in a 3 minute cable

00:28:42.830 --> 00:28:47.510
news appearance as he is in a 30 minute
speech as he's in a 3 hour podcast.

00:28:47.810 --> 00:28:50.929
He's kind of mastered each
of those, those media.

00:28:51.379 --> 00:28:56.360
When you're working with leaders
who now have to appear in these many

00:28:56.450 --> 00:29:00.735
different formats on these wildly
different platforms, how do you

00:29:00.735 --> 00:29:02.535
help them get good across the board?

00:29:03.794 --> 00:29:06.735
Matt Abrahams: I think you take a step
back and you really think about what do

00:29:06.735 --> 00:29:08.655
you stand for, what's important for you?

00:29:08.655 --> 00:29:11.145
What are your key values?

00:29:11.175 --> 00:29:12.524
And you start from there.

00:29:12.794 --> 00:29:15.254
And, you know, so essentially what
I'm saying is you have to be authentic

00:29:15.254 --> 00:29:16.425
and you have to be true to yourself.

00:29:17.115 --> 00:29:21.135
You then have to think about how
the message plays best on the

00:29:21.135 --> 00:29:22.575
different channels and platforms.

00:29:23.085 --> 00:29:27.495
And you might have a, a really good
stump speech or a really good position

00:29:27.495 --> 00:29:30.045
statement or pitch at 5 minutes.

00:29:30.285 --> 00:29:34.485
How can I, it's not just about
truncating it to fit the 32nd TikTok.

00:29:34.905 --> 00:29:39.560
It's what's the core essence of that,
or a piece of that core essence, and

00:29:39.560 --> 00:29:41.300
how can I say that in the best way?

00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:44.630
So helping people understand that
it's not just message, but channel,

00:29:44.810 --> 00:29:46.340
all coming from an authentic place.

00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.990
And then it boils down to practice.

00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:50.240
You have to practice for
the different modalities.

00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.120
People think I can, you
know, if I can do a 30 minute

00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:54.950
presentation, I can do it in 5.

00:29:55.515 --> 00:29:56.295
Not at all.

00:29:56.295 --> 00:29:57.255
It's very different.

00:29:57.255 --> 00:30:00.945
And so you have to get that experience
and you have to practice it.

00:30:01.275 --> 00:30:01.875
And you're right.

00:30:01.875 --> 00:30:03.465
If you don't, people question.

00:30:03.525 --> 00:30:04.845
It feels disingenuous.

00:30:05.265 --> 00:30:07.905
And I think younger people have
an advantage over those of us who

00:30:07.905 --> 00:30:12.165
are older in that they're used
to managing personas in different

00:30:12.165 --> 00:30:14.655
modalities, much more so than I am.

00:30:14.685 --> 00:30:18.255
I, you know, I barely can do it in front
of somebody, let alone on technology.

00:30:18.645 --> 00:30:22.865
Jeff Berman: So, what are you saying
to, to leaders who, who do need to be

00:30:22.865 --> 00:30:26.260
on platforms where it is just wildly
uncomfortable for them to get there?

00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:30.660
Matt Abrahams: Whenever I ask anybody to
do something they're uncomfortable with, I

00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:33.570
ask them to think about another time they
did something they were uncomfortable,

00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:35.730
and what, what helped them do that?

00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:40.710
And it could be everything from the
first road race somebody ran to, you

00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:44.310
know, the first time they had to let
somebody go during a reduction in force.

00:30:44.370 --> 00:30:46.560
Helping people understand
that one, you can do it.

00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:50.390
And then helping scaffold the
different pieces, you know, so if

00:30:50.390 --> 00:30:54.230
I'm trying and I'm, I am learning
how to be on TikTok myself, which

00:30:54.290 --> 00:30:56.510
is wildly disturbing to my kids.

00:30:56.510 --> 00:30:57.620
They do not want me there.

00:30:58.010 --> 00:31:02.750
But the point is that you need to
understand what, what's expected on

00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:06.385
that channel, what works, and then
figure out how you can connect to it.

00:31:06.865 --> 00:31:11.545
You, you have your own freedom in, in
on-ramps to these different channels

00:31:11.545 --> 00:31:15.115
and helping, I help people try to figure
out where's the best place to start?

00:31:15.115 --> 00:31:18.985
Is it that you're really good
at being funny or you're really

00:31:18.985 --> 00:31:20.275
good at asking questions?

00:31:20.455 --> 00:31:23.845
So let's lean into that when you move to
a different platform or a different way.

00:31:23.845 --> 00:31:26.965
So let's find a strength that
will play well in that platform.

00:31:26.965 --> 00:31:28.315
But first you have to be encouraged.

00:31:28.435 --> 00:31:34.815
Jeff Berman: Matt, you, you
referenced, um, uh, where was I going?

00:31:35.295 --> 00:31:37.035
I just fully lost my train of thought.

00:31:38.504 --> 00:31:39.104
Matt Abrahams: It's quite all right.

00:31:39.165 --> 00:31:39.764
Jeff Berman: Forgive me.

00:31:39.945 --> 00:31:40.395
Matt Abrahams: No worries.

00:31:40.695 --> 00:31:41.205
Jeff Berman: Surreal.

00:31:41.774 --> 00:31:42.915
Let me go in a different direction.

00:31:43.475 --> 00:31:44.625
Matt Abrahams: We can
talk about blanking out.

00:31:44.895 --> 00:31:47.034
Jeff Berman: Let's talk about blanking
out 'cause I just blanked out.

00:31:47.064 --> 00:31:49.574
I just, I had exactly where I
wanted to go with my next question.

00:31:49.574 --> 00:31:49.995
I lost it.

00:31:49.995 --> 00:31:51.044
What do we do in those moments?

00:31:51.604 --> 00:31:54.344
Matt Abrahams: When you blank out, a
great thing to do is to do what you do

00:31:54.344 --> 00:31:55.995
when you lose your phone or your keys.

00:31:56.324 --> 00:31:57.604
Go back to go forward.

00:31:57.734 --> 00:31:58.494
Repeat yourself.

00:31:58.734 --> 00:32:01.574
Say what you just said before, most
of us can remember that, and that

00:32:01.574 --> 00:32:03.284
often gives us enough to get on track.

00:32:03.794 --> 00:32:09.675
If not find a way in conversation
to distract your audience, so I

00:32:09.675 --> 00:32:12.254
teach the same class very often.

00:32:12.254 --> 00:32:13.784
I can't remember, did I
say this in this class?

00:32:13.784 --> 00:32:14.955
Did I say that yesterday?

00:32:15.554 --> 00:32:17.475
So I'll, I'll lose my train of thought.

00:32:17.475 --> 00:32:20.564
So what I'll do is I'll just pause and
if you ever hear me say this, it means

00:32:20.564 --> 00:32:21.675
I've forgotten what I need to say.

00:32:21.675 --> 00:32:24.554
I will say, let's pause and
think about how what we've just

00:32:24.554 --> 00:32:26.215
discussed impacts your life.

00:32:26.645 --> 00:32:28.615
And what my students do
is they think about that.

00:32:28.855 --> 00:32:30.745
And that gives me that
fraction of a second.

00:32:31.135 --> 00:32:33.205
So, can you leverage a question?

00:32:33.205 --> 00:32:37.585
Can you get somebody responding or doing
something to buy that time for yourself?

00:32:37.825 --> 00:32:39.295
I call it a back pocket question.

00:32:39.295 --> 00:32:40.795
You should have something
you can pull out.

00:32:41.065 --> 00:32:43.165
So when you blank out, repeat yourself.

00:32:43.165 --> 00:32:46.165
If that doesn't get you back on
track, ask some other peripheral

00:32:46.165 --> 00:32:47.455
question that you've thought about.

00:32:47.905 --> 00:32:49.075
Just like you asked me earlier.

00:32:49.075 --> 00:32:51.915
You could simply say, what's
something I should be asking you?

00:32:52.745 --> 00:32:54.960
And that's something I can respond
to and that gives you time to think.

00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:55.170
Jeff Berman: Yeah.

00:32:55.230 --> 00:32:57.330
What have we not talked about that
we should have talked about here?

00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:00.540
Matt Abrahams: I alluded to
listening a little bit earlier,

00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:05.640
but listening really is critical
in all communication and listening

00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.410
means we actually have to slow down.

00:33:07.770 --> 00:33:10.890
I have a colleague who, who jokingly
says, I hope it's jokingly, that

00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:13.379
listening's that thing I have
to do before I get to speak.

00:33:14.360 --> 00:33:16.990
So when I teach listening,
I teach a few things.

00:33:17.020 --> 00:33:18.400
Uh, I learned this from
a colleague of mine.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.750
His name is Collins Dobbs.

00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:22.030
Pace, space, grace.

00:33:22.510 --> 00:33:24.070
Jeff Berman: Pace, space, grace.

00:33:24.100 --> 00:33:26.350
Matt Abrahams: It's a way to
ace your listening, so you

00:33:26.350 --> 00:33:27.320
have to slow things down.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.460
Listening is one of the only
skills where we actually have to

00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:31.990
slow down to take advantage of it.

00:33:32.575 --> 00:33:34.225
So you have to slow your pace down.

00:33:34.555 --> 00:33:35.965
You have to give yourself space.

00:33:36.025 --> 00:33:39.115
You know, for me, as I get older,
everything's loud and I can't hear.

00:33:39.925 --> 00:33:42.415
I have to move to a space that
I can, but more importantly,

00:33:42.415 --> 00:33:43.585
I have to give mental space.

00:33:43.615 --> 00:33:46.795
I have to stop all the chatter
and focus, and then grace.

00:33:46.795 --> 00:33:50.275
Grace to give yourself permission,
not just to listen to the words,

00:33:50.785 --> 00:33:53.845
but how those words are said,
where those words are said.

00:33:54.535 --> 00:33:56.005
That can give you a lot of insight.

00:33:56.065 --> 00:33:56.965
I'll tell you a quick story.

00:33:56.965 --> 00:33:59.275
I came out of a meeting with a
colleague and my colleague said,

00:33:59.545 --> 00:34:00.370
how do you think the meeting went?

00:34:01.695 --> 00:34:05.145
And I immediately heard feedback, so
I gave all the constructive feedback

00:34:05.145 --> 00:34:06.405
'cause the meeting didn't go well.

00:34:07.064 --> 00:34:08.775
What he really wanted was not feedback.

00:34:08.804 --> 00:34:10.355
He wanted support in that moment.

00:34:10.714 --> 00:34:14.085
I didn't recognize, he came out the
back door, not the front door with me.

00:34:14.324 --> 00:34:18.045
He was talking quietly, he was looking
down, he was sending me all these

00:34:18.045 --> 00:34:19.784
signals that I was not listening to.

00:34:20.114 --> 00:34:22.945
So pace, space, grace
helps you listen better.

00:34:23.215 --> 00:34:25.465
And then the single best tool,
I've said this, I've mentioned

00:34:25.465 --> 00:34:27.145
this before, paraphrasing.

00:34:27.145 --> 00:34:29.625
When you listen to paraphrase,
you have to listen more deeply.

00:34:30.205 --> 00:34:32.095
You listen for the bottom
line, not the top line.

00:34:32.095 --> 00:34:36.535
So if we give ourselves a little
pace, space grace, and we listen to

00:34:36.535 --> 00:34:38.245
paraphrase, we learn to listen better.

00:34:38.245 --> 00:34:39.595
Now I have to be very candid with you.

00:34:39.745 --> 00:34:42.085
My wife thinks I'm a fraud
when I talk about listening.

00:34:42.085 --> 00:34:44.485
'Cause she thinks I, I
need a lot of practice.

00:34:44.785 --> 00:34:46.045
But we are all working on it.

00:34:46.135 --> 00:34:47.125
Jeff Berman: We are all working on it.

00:34:47.125 --> 00:34:48.985
And you're still married,
so you know, you've done,

00:34:48.985 --> 00:34:49.894
Matt Abrahams: As far as I know.

00:34:49.894 --> 00:34:51.614
Jeff Berman: You've done
something right here.

00:34:52.015 --> 00:34:55.405
You referenced earlier that often
if someone's not agreeing with

00:34:55.405 --> 00:34:58.175
a speaker, that speaker doesn't
feel like they've been heard.

00:34:58.745 --> 00:35:03.205
We're in a moment in this country where
we really struggle to hear each other

00:35:03.265 --> 00:35:05.035
and to make each other feel heard.

00:35:05.545 --> 00:35:10.285
And it feels like there is so much
more that divides us than unites us.

00:35:10.465 --> 00:35:11.995
I, I reject that perspective.

00:35:11.995 --> 00:35:12.295
Matt Abrahams: I agree.

00:35:12.295 --> 00:35:13.855
And the research suggests that too.

00:35:13.975 --> 00:35:16.435
Jeff Berman: It feels like to, to
build back, we have to start locally.

00:35:16.435 --> 00:35:18.385
We have to start one-on-one,
and then in small groups, in

00:35:18.385 --> 00:35:19.315
communities, what have you.

00:35:20.850 --> 00:35:25.620
As you observe this, what do you wish we
were doing differently so that we could

00:35:25.830 --> 00:35:30.090
connect more and, and find those, those
things that unite us more than divide us.

00:35:30.450 --> 00:35:33.660
Matt Abrahams: Stepping back
and looking at and listening

00:35:33.660 --> 00:35:34.980
to different perspectives.

00:35:35.520 --> 00:35:36.810
I really applaud my wife.

00:35:36.810 --> 00:35:38.190
She does this better than I do.

00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:42.300
She will look at multiple news sources
from different parts of the political

00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:44.040
spectrum for a particular topic.

00:35:44.970 --> 00:35:48.660
And that gives her perspective that
I don't necessarily always have.

00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:52.710
So taking that step back and appreciating
that there are different perspectives

00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.510
and hearing those different perspectives.

00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:57.570
You know, it's, it's trite and
cliché to say we're all living in

00:35:57.570 --> 00:36:00.900
our own little bubbles, but it's
true and we need to peer out and see.

00:36:01.370 --> 00:36:05.040
And leading within inquiry
and curiosity, I think are the

00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:07.200
ways to really get that going.

00:36:07.470 --> 00:36:11.575
When you come in guns blazing, here's
my position, this is what's going

00:36:11.575 --> 00:36:15.085
to happen, that, that's off-putting,
that puts somebody in the defensive.

00:36:15.085 --> 00:36:17.605
But if I come in with curiosity,
help me understand that.

00:36:17.875 --> 00:36:21.685
What perspective do you hold that
invites at least conversation.

00:36:21.745 --> 00:36:26.520
And again, understanding that we
don't always have to agree and we can

00:36:26.520 --> 00:36:28.379
appreciate somebody else's perspective.

00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:31.649
That lays the groundwork for the
kinds of conversations you're

00:36:31.649 --> 00:36:32.910
hoping for, and I'm hoping for.

00:36:35.160 --> 00:36:35.580
Jeff Berman: I love that.

00:36:35.640 --> 00:36:36.480
What a great place to wrap.

00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:37.350
Thank you for being with us.

00:36:37.439 --> 00:36:38.220
Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much.

00:36:38.220 --> 00:36:39.330
I enjoyed the conversation.

00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:43.980
Jeff Berman: Thanks again to my
friend Matt Abrahams for joining us.

00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:47.399
His brilliant podcast is Think
Fast Talk Smart, and his book

00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.379
is Think Faster, Talk Smarter.

00:36:50.100 --> 00:36:50.819
I'm Jeff Berman.

00:36:51.120 --> 00:36:51.930
Thank you for listening.

00:36:56.765 --> 00:36:59.735
Matt Abrahams: Well, thanks for listening
to my conversation on Masters of Scale.

00:37:00.125 --> 00:37:04.235
I hope you learn practical tips that can
help you communicate more effectively.

00:37:04.625 --> 00:37:07.745
If you'd like to hear more conversations
like this with leaders breaking

00:37:07.745 --> 00:37:11.225
down how they build, lead and scale,
you can follow Masters of Scale

00:37:11.225 --> 00:37:13.115
wherever you get your podcasts.