288. Turn Your Audience into Co-Creators: Lessons from the Tiger Sisters

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Passion and collaboration can turbocharge your communication. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to visit with the Tiger Sisters, Cherie and Jean Luo. They are the dynamic co-hosts of the Tiger Sisters podcast, a show I encourage all of you to put in your playlists. They together demystify the tech and finance industries and go beyond with their insights that are both fun and educational. They blend the strategic rigor of the boardroom with the candor of sisterly love. Well, welcome, Jean and Cherie. It's great to have you here. I'm a big fan of your show and the connections we have. It's great to be here in person chatting with you at Spotify in LA. Thanks for being here. 

[00:00:50] Cherie Luo: We're so excited. 

[00:00:52] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. You both are incredibly curious and motivated. What drives what you do? Jean, you want to start? 

[00:01:00] Jean Luo: So for Tiger Sisters, our mission is to help one billion people in the world with what we do, and that's something that we didn't really say out loud and start telling people until recently because we were quite sort of bashful about how audacious that is. But now we just say it full on. And the context behind that is that prior to starting Tiger Sisters with Cherie about a year and a half ago, I had never been on camera in my life. I had never done anything like this, never been in the media industry. I actually had had a 15-year-long corporate career before all this, so this is all totally new to me. And the reason that, you know, I left that all behind is because while I was in my corporate career, I was sort of behind the scenes and watching Cherie and seeing all that she was doing as a creator, which she had been for about 5 years.

[00:01:50] And I was sort of seeing all the DMs and the messages that she was getting from people where they would write into her and say, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know, you changed my life with your content. I never knew what product management was. I never knew I could ever work at a tech company. But I watched all your content. I applied, and I got the job. I'm moving across the country." And so after, like, a few years of that, I was like, "You know what? This is something that has both incredible scale and reach and really touches and changes the lives of individual people." So from that, I was like, "This is worth me dedicating my life to." 

[00:02:26] Matt Abrahams: I really like that you guys are very purpose-driven. 

[00:02:28] Cherie Luo: Oh, yeah. 

[00:02:28] Matt Abrahams: And you're right. I mean, what we do can have impact on people, and that's fantastic. So Cherie, you and I go way back. We've, we've had a connection. But I'm curious to have you share sort of your motivation. Maybe you can share how we actually know each other as well. 

[00:02:41] Cherie Luo: Yes. So Matt and I know each other from Stanford Graduate School of Business. I was a student there, and I graduated in 2024, so not too long ago. Jean and I, it's amazing that we get to work together every single day for this mission, but we both feel so much drive and purpose and passion for empowering and helping and uplifting people. I started creating content in 2020 during the pandemic, and mostly on TikTok, short form. And the thing that really clicked for me was when I created this video that rated my undergraduate computer science classes, one through ten, I rated them, and I'm like, "How helpful were my classes to what I am doing now working in the tech industry?" And I took that idea and a TikTok trend with a Hannah Montana sound, so it was like current and relevant. 

[00:03:27] And I combined those two together, and that video went viral. So it had way more likes, comments, views than my silly dance videos or my cat videos. And people were asking follow-up questions in the comments like, "Oh, wow, this class is so interesting," like, "How long did it take you to do your major?" And at the time there weren't a lot of people sharing their experiences in an educational and like also entertaining way. And so starting from there, I've had a content creator career, mostly part-time until recently full-time after graduating. But throughout GSB, I was also posting like, what is it like to be a business school student at Stanford? What are the classes that I'm taking? What am I learning? What's the behind the scenes? And so now after graduating in 2024, Jean and I have come together and turned it into Tiger Sisters, which is both our full-time jobs and passion for the impact we want to create in this world. 

[00:04:18] Matt Abrahams: Well, I'm hoping that the ratings of the GSB classes were good. I really like how part of what you all do is in a very creative way, you make more detailed, tough at times, content accessible to people. You're very good in the way in which you communicate complex ideas and make things relevant. How much of that is strategic? Do you guys sit down and talk about, how are we going to address this issue or communicate this topic, or is it just natural and happens?

[00:04:47] Cherie Luo: Oh, no. I mean, I think the behind the scenes of Tiger Sisters people don't see, 'cause it does come out very polished, but there's so much research that goes behind every single episode. And for Jean and me, I think a lot of our ethos is meeting our listeners, our viewers, our audience where they are. And while some of the content we have is more complex or academic, one of our more famous episodes or well-received episodes, we talked about private equity and venture capital. Very fun and sexy. But we called it like Private Equity for Hot People, and that was a bit, but it also reached people, we're like, "Okay, there's something interesting there. We can talk about it, break it down, and make it more palatable, exciting, entertaining, and interesting." 

[00:05:29] Jean Luo: Yeah, and we're always thinking about what our audience wants, right? What the community, we call the Tiger Fam, what they want and why they want to listen to this topic. So for a topic like venture capital or private equity, yes, like some people are interested in it just for the academic pursuit, but really what people want is to be able to participate in any conversation. Like if you go to a networking event or you go to a fancy dinner and people are talking about this company just raised a seed round or like this vertical industrials is really heating up for private equity. People want to know what to say to that. They want to understand it. They want to be able to participate and ask well-informed questions. So that's why when we made an episode about VC and PE, that was the angle that we went at it. We're like, how to talk about money in any room. 

[00:06:14] Matt Abrahams: Which, which is all of us, right? So really knowing that audience, doing that reconnaissance reflection and research is important. How do you get insight from your audiences? Are you doing surveys? Are you talking to people? Are you watching who responds to what? 

[00:06:26] Cherie Luo: Yeah. We often think about our community, our viewers, listeners, as the co-producers of our episodes. And Jean and I think about Tiger Sisters building it like building a tech startup, which I think is pretty unique in this space, but makes ton of sense with our backgrounds.

[00:06:42] Matt Abrahams: The rapid prototyping, the, the frameworks and all of that. Yeah. 

[00:06:45] Cherie Luo: Because each episode that we put out is like a mini product in and of itself. Once we put it out, we can get feedback on whether or not people are resonating with the topic, what do they want to hear next, what are their follow-up questions, and a lot of that comes in both quantitative and qualitative feedback. The qualitative is digging into every single comment that people leave, and we read all of the comments.

[00:07:06] Jean Luo: We say that in every episode too, so people know that. 

[00:07:09] Matt Abrahams: Right. And that encourages more. 

[00:07:10] Jean Luo: Exactly. People are very passionate, and people really make a lot of suggestions about what they want us to cover. So we've seen comments before where we release an episode and then people say, "Oh my God, this is the topic I asked for a month ago. I can't believe you guys finally did it." And they'll be like, "Please talk about this topic next." So it's really this like virtuous cycle because our audience, the Tiger family, see that we're listening, and they really do feel like a part of the production and the growth and the development of Tiger Sisters.

[00:07:39] Matt Abrahams: That sense of community is so important. We do very similar here on Think Fast, Talk Smart. We definitely like getting the feedback and the ideas, and we build that in. It's part of it. And that sense of community I think is something that's very special. I really like this idea of seeing your work as a tech startup. One of my colleagues, I don't know if you ever took a class with Michele Gelfand, but she likes to say, "Mind your metaphors." The metaphors we use affect how we do our work, and seeing it as a startup m- means you bring a certain ethos and approach and a way of interacting not just with each other, but with your audience. So I really like that idea. And all of us can be thinking about what are those metaphors we bring to the interactions we have? Is this gonna be a battle? Is this gonna be a dance? Is this gonna be a startup? I think that's really interesting.

[00:08:23] I'm curious about the two of you. I mean, obviously you're sisters, but you're also colleagues and co-founders. I can imagine occasionally there might be some differences of opinion. How do you resolve conflicts or different points of view? For those listening in, are there some conflict management techniques that we can learn from? 

[00:08:43] Cherie Luo: Not included in your list is roommates. 

[00:08:45] Matt Abrahams: Oh. Wow. So you guys are a 7 by 24 Tiger Sisters and Tiger roommates. Wow. Okay. This just got really interesting. 

[00:08:53] Jean Luo: I mean, people ask, they're like, "How did you grow so quickly?" It's because we're always working on it. I think we're really lucky in that we did a lot of sort of pre-work, whether we knew it or not, in aligning our mission and how we looked at building Tiger Sisters. Like the metaphors we use, we looked at it as a startup. We said, "We are gonna bootstrap this." We said, "We are going to, no matter what, spend 18 months on this and just see where it goes. When we start this podcast, we are not gonna take any sponsors for the first year. All we're gonna do is work on the content and make sure we prove to ourselves that we have product market fit." So I think because we did all that pre-work, we were really well aligned on, like, so many aspects of how we were gonna build this. And I think just personality wise, we both are pretty hard workers when we are really excited about something. And so I don't think we've had too much conflict. 

[00:09:52] Cherie Luo: The thing is, with Jean and me, we both have very low ego when it comes to creating Tiger Sisters or when you're working with someone or in a partnership with someone. I think it's having low ego. So we do a lot of testing for thumbnails and titles and content, and sometimes Jean will have a crazy idea and I'm like, "I don't know if that's a good idea or a bad idea. Let's test it." You know? Like, let the numbers speak for itself. Let's test this title, and if it works, that's great for the betterment of Tiger Sisters. And I also just have a lot of respect for obviously my older sister and going into conversations thinking like, "What if she's right?" You know? Instead of being like, "No, I'm definitely right," or like, "She's wrong and I have the better idea." It's, it's not really that. It's like we both want Tiger Sisters to be so successful and we wanna help people, and we have the same mission and vision. I'm like, "What if she's right?" 

[00:10:43] Matt Abrahams: I really like that approach to potential conflict is what if the other person's right? Most of us, I think our natural reaction is I'm right, they're wrong. But I like that, what if she's right? And I love that you also go to the numbers. Let's test it out. Before we have a battle or a fight, let's try it. And in the space you're in and with the technology we have, you can test things pretty quickly. The notion of being very clear on your goals and alignment also I think is something that is, have been helpful. I heard you say that was really important upfront. Lots that you're doing that many of us can take away. Get alignment. Think about what if the other person's right, and figure out ways to test the areas where there's contention or potential conflict. That's really helpful.

[00:11:23] I'm curious to hear, you both made pivots from a completely different career. How was that, and how did you communicate that? I can imagine family members, friends, others saying, "Well, you had a pretty good run doing what you were doing, and you're gonna go do what?" What was that thought process, and how did you communicate that in a way that was able to help get the support that I assume you've had? 

[00:11:45] Jean Luo: Yeah. I mean, in many ways terrifying to kind of, not throw away, but put aside the entire 15 years, you know, of working in corporate. And, you know, after a long time you become quite successful, and you are an expert in one area. So to move to an entirely new area that I have no evidence that I'll be at all any good at it, that was really terrifying. But I think the sort of tenet that I've lived my life by and that I use to help communicate this change is just the idea of reinvention, right? That is a theme that we talk about all the time on Tiger Sisters, that you can reinvent yourself at any age, and you can do it in a million different ways. So the other tenet that I live my life by is that don't ever, like, count yourself out. Don't, because so many people, they're gonna wanna, like, count you out. Don't do it to yourself before you get into it. And especially if you're a woman, play to your strengths, and, like, don't worry about the fact that you may not be perfect on paper. There's going to be something about you that makes you special for the role. 

[00:12:49] Matt Abrahams: I think this idea of reinvention, which comes across loud and clear in the show you do, and it's very empowering. But every time you reinvent, you're leveraging what you've learned in the past, so you're applying all the skills you learned into your new role. In communicating that to your colleagues, your parents, et cetera, was it hard for you and for them? I mean, that's a hard message to say, "I'm leaving a successful career." Did you strategically think about the message that you had to deliver? 

[00:13:18] Cherie Luo: I think for Jean and me, it may be our mother's worst nightmare that we're not working in corporate anymore. So we come from, you know, we are Tiger Sisters. We have a tiger mom to say the least. And she's an immigrant. And we grew up thinking that our lives should look a certain way. We should get the resume attributes and go to those schools and have those jobs. And so I think it's absolutely so scary to share that we are not doing that, or we've done that and now trust us. We are taking a major pivot, but we believe in ourselves so much, so we also need that belief and support from you as well. I still think it's kind of a battle. Like, maybe battle's kind of a dramatic word, but I do mean that, in that we're proving to ourselves, we're proving to the world, and also proving to the people who care about us and want the best for us but don't necessarily know what this whole media stuff is, you know?

[00:14:15] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. One of the things that I wanna pick up on that you said that I think is really valuable when communicating change to others from whom we want support is that you had an ask. You didn't just say, "We're doing this," or, "I'm doing this." You said, "And we need your support." And that connection I think is really important in sharing that I'm making this change. I'm reinventing myself, but I'm gonna need that help and support along the way, and that can pull people forward with you.

[00:14:38] You guys are doing a great job of branding yourself and your show. In this creator economy, whatever that means, that brand is important. Can you talk to us a little bit about the conscious efforts you're following or acting on to define your brand? Because I believe as we move forward in this creator-led world, all of us in some way, shape, or form are gonna have to have a personal brand. Maybe it's a show like you have, or maybe it's just when I go to apply for a job, I have this brand that others can go check out to see that my brand is in line with whatever the corporate brand is. Thoughts on branding? You're doing a great job at it.

[00:15:13] Cherie Luo: Something that I've been thinking about for branding for Tiger Sisters and how I've approached branding for the last few years is what makes you stand out in your category or your vertical? Be good at what you do, provide value, and what are ways that you are different. So one of the reasons why I reached out and we're doing this podcast is that our podcasts were next to each other on the top business charts. And, you know, Jean and I look at those charts, and sometimes when we're up there in the top 10, we're like, "Wait a second. We're talking about business. We're talking about career, finance, money, power. And we are the only people in this category that look and sound like us and have the experiences that we have."

[00:15:53] And so I think my takeaway for the last few years is just, like, how can you brand yourself as someone who is very credible, be good at what you do, provide value, and how are you just a little bit different, providing nuance and a different perspective? This started when I was in my computer science classes as an undergrad. I wasn't the best CS student at all, but something that's different about me, I was good enough in my classes. I was part of Women in Computer Science. But I was very talkative, very outgoing. That helped me stand out among my peers who were in the club with me, and I was nominated president because I could be the corporate-facing person to talk to these companies, to bring the companies to campus and, you know, have those intern and job opportunities for my classmates. But I think in that way, like, I also was trying to figure out, how do I stand out? 

[00:16:41] Matt Abrahams: What I hear in different answers that you gave is knowing yourself and where your strengths are. And then from a branding perspective, understanding the context you're in and figuring out how you can bring a little bit of nuance or difference there so that you leverage the strengths that you have. And you've done a good job of that. And it takes a lot of research and reflection and trial and error, as you've mentioned, to really find that. But once you do, it can really be helpful for you. It gives you focus, and it also invites in those audiences for the creative stuff you do.

[00:17:15] One of the things I really appreciate about what you do is you take a lot of complex information and make it really accessible. And I'd like to get very tactical. What are some of the techniques you think through about how to communicate it so people understand it? I know you think about your audience, but are you thinking, "A good story would work here," or, "Let's use an analogy there"? Talk to me about that process because it's very helpful to learn material through you all and the way you do it.

[00:17:41] Jean Luo: Yeah. I think the funny thing is that, again, it helps that we have a similar background in that we both went to business school because we really draw on that sort of method of learning, of learning through case studies. So whether or not we intended to go about it this way, we basically approach every single episode as kind of like a lesson. And hopefully that's not how people perceive it because it's also meant to be extremely entertaining. But we try to pull the best of what we learned from business school, and we always include a case study. We include some of the background that people need to learn in order to be able to process and build that critical thinking around the topic themselves.

[00:18:23] And then we layer in what I think is our secret sauce, which is we talk a lot about our own personal experiences, right? So we talk about our mistakes and our failures and the way that we had to learn things the hard way across certain topics in our careers. And then I think one level deeper, what makes us even more unique, is that we don't just take these sort of frameworks and principles and apply it to business and money and career, but we also apply it to our personal lives and our personal relationships, our friendships, our love lives. And we also have mini exercises. 

[00:18:56] Matt Abrahams: And what's so interesting to me is, I mean, the things that you do and you've just described are things that people like me use when we teach. And I love that you learn them from the other side. As students, you learn these techniques, but adult learning theory is all about the things that you're doing. I love that you use a case to make it real. You bring your own personal experiences. You give people an activity to do to really reflect. That's how people learn and grow.

[00:19:20] Before we end every episode, I always ask three questions. One I'm gonna create just for you. Actually, instead of a question, I want it to be a little bit of an experience, and then I'll ask you the two questions. So when I teach, one of the icebreakers I use is a very quick game called This or That. So what I'd like to do is I'd like to pose to each of you a choice, and I'd like you to just state your choice, no more information. And then after we do a few of these, I might ask a question. So it'll be interesting to see if you have similar or different choices. So for example, if I were to say to you, Cherie, summer or winter, you would say? 

[00:19:51] Cherie Luo: Winter. 

[00:19:52] Matt Abrahams: Summer or winter? 

[00:19:52] Jean Luo: Summer. 

[00:19:53] Matt Abrahams: Okay. See? Interesting. Already we've got a difference. Backpack or suitcase? 

[00:19:56] Cherie Luo: Backpack.

[00:19:57] Jean Luo: Suitcase. 

[00:19:58] Matt Abrahams: Money or time? 

[00:20:00] Cherie Luo: Time. 

[00:20:00] Jean Luo: Money. 

[00:20:03] Matt Abrahams: Player or coach? 

[00:20:05] Cherie Luo: Player.

[00:20:06] Jean Luo: Now player. 

[00:20:07] Matt Abrahams: Okay. Interesting. See? So some similarities and differences. Talk to me about backpack or suitcase. 

[00:20:12] Cherie Luo: I like to have things on me. I'm ready. I'm on the go. Suitcase, you gotta, there's more maneuvering 

[00:20:18] Matt Abrahams: And for you? 

[00:20:19] Jean Luo: I personally have a suitcase that I really, really love. 

[00:20:22] Matt Abrahams: Okay. 

[00:20:23] Cherie Luo: And that's, that's, 

[00:20:24] Matt Abrahams: That's the way you do. Okay. So question number two. Jean, I'll ask this of you and I'll come to you with question number three. Who's a communicator you admire, and why? 

[00:20:32] Jean Luo: Okay. I would say Reese Witherspoon. 'Cause I think she's done something very special with building Hello Sunshine in being able to tell stories that are meant for an audience that is historically really underserved based on what she wants to hear and what she wants to know.

[00:20:49] Matt Abrahams: So connection and storytelling. And Reese is, uh, Stanford affiliated, so that's important to note. So, cherie, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:21:00] Cherie Luo: I would say the first thing is knowing your audience. And maybe that's something I learned from you and Allison Kluger from your classes. But knowing your audience. And I'll, I'll bring this example into the digital world. Whereas, like, if I am posting on LinkedIn versus posting on Instagram, the message I share and the way that I share it, the medium, and also the copy that I use, it's very different. The audience on LinkedIn coming from the corporate world, they're expecting to see more professional content. And that way, maybe I can make my content a little bit more personal, surprise them a little bit, be more vulnerable. It's not what they expect in that way. It's a little bit surprising, and they can engage with that.

[00:21:39] On Instagram, like, my audience is a bit younger. Maybe I should come off a bit more professional. That's not what they're seeing on social media. So knowing your audience and maybe knowing what they expect and maybe tweaking that a little bit so you can surprise and delight them. I would say the second thing is when you're talking to people and meeting them, I think about how do you be the most curious person and asking a lot of questions to them. In that way, like, we've all met people who are like, "Oh, my God. They're so charming. They're so magnetic." Like, how do they do it? And I think it's being really curious about the other person. And I think everyone has an interesting story to offer. And really digging in and asking good questions and making people feel like they're the star.

[00:22:22] Matt Abrahams: So it's about knowing your audience, it's about being curious, and it's about bringing out the stories in other people. Fantastic ingredients and something that's demonstrated on your show all the time. It's been lovely to chat with you, to reconnect. I am fully a member of the Tiger family, and really appreciate the collaboration and the learnings. Thank you. 

[00:22:43] Cherie Luo: Thank you, Matt.

[00:22:44] Jean Luo: Thank you. 

[00:22:47] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about related topics like we discussed, please check out our extensive back catalog you can find wherever you get your podcasts, or at fastersmarter.io. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to the team at the Spotify Studios in Los Angeles and Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep-dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI coach, and our book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning.