284. Hear Me Out: How Understanding Accents—Ours & Others—Improves Communication

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: How you sound and what you
say is critical to communication success.

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Let's put an accent on accents.

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My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I look forward to speaking once
again with my friend Valerie Fridland.

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Valerie is a professor of sociolinguistics
at the University of Nevada in Reno.

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She's an expert on the relationship
between language and society.

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Valerie is the author of Like, Literally,
Dude, arguing for the good in bad

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English, and recently she released
her new book called Why We Talk Funny:

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The Real Story Behind Our Accents.

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Well, welcome back Valerie.

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I am thrilled to be joined with you
again and to continue the conversations

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you and I have had many times over
the last time since you visited.

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Thanks for being here.

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Valerie Fridland: Oh, absolutely.

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It's always a pleasure
to talk with you, Matt.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Valerie Fridland: Let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: You have taught me so
many things about how language works,

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but none has fundamentally changed
my view than what you've talked

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about in terms of filled pauses.

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It changed the way I think about it, I
teach it, what I try to do in my own work.

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For those of you who haven't heard
Valerie's complete description of this

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checkout episode 91, would you mind just
giving us a quick summary of what filled

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pauses are and what they actually do for
us as communicators and as listeners?

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Valerie Fridland: Sure, absolutely.

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Well filled pauses are things
we all use on occasion.

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We all recognize because they're
the uhs and ums that populate our

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pauses, and every language has them.

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So it's something we find the world over.

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They're not all exactly
the same form, but roughly.

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But what we find is that um
and uh tend to occur when we're

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doing more complex things.

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So whenever we are having more complex
sentence structures, so we're putting

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a lot of embeddings, a lot of different
sort of extra parts in our sentences and

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and's, or or's, and relative clauses,
we find that uh and um tend to occur

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before those points of more complexity.

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We also find when we're coming up with
hard words, big words, unfamiliar words,

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we tend to uh or um more in front of them.

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But I think the most fascinating thing
is not just why we do them as speakers,

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because we're signaling harder work
cognitively, but it's actually what they

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do for a listener that's incredible.

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And not only do they signal to
a listener like, hey, I'm doing

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something really complex here.

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It's gonna take me a minute.

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So they're kind of just giving you a
heads up that we're taking a moment.

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The reason we wanna do that is
because if I pause silently,

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you might think I'm done.

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But if I uh or um it's
signaling to you I'm not done.

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I'm just pausing for a sec. But
the really, really fascinating part

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is that they actually really help
with memory on the listener side.

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So when we run experiments and we have
people say uh before a content word,

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before some sort of word that we're
interested in people remembering, and

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then we run the same experiment where we
don't have people uh before that word,

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we find that the recall for the word
with uh in front of it is better than

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in the cases where they didn't have uh.

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Which tells us that they're actually
doing some pretty important work.

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So if you want people to remember what
you say, a little uh won't hurt you.

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But I wouldn't overpopulate
because we also don't like them.

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So just be aware of that facet as well.

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Matt Abrahams: It's fascinating to
me that these filler words exist

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across different languages and
that they actually serve a purpose.

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They signal that we're working hard.

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They highlight that what we're
about to say is something

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you should pay attention to.

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And it turns out people actually do
pay more attention and they actually

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remember that information more.

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So the old adage, get rid of all the
filled pauses, is not actually accurate.

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It's okay to have them
and they in fact help us.

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It's when you have a lot of
them that it gets distracting.

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And I would argue that my theory
is the reason when somebody uses so

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many of these filled pauses annoys
us is we're actually trained to

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expect something of value to follow.

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If all that follows an um is another
um that actually is frustrating.

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Valerie Fridland: Partially,
I think that's true.

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I also think it's that the natural
tendency is that we're going to um

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and uh more often in high stakes
context because it's things we're

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not as used to saying, and it's not
anxiety or stress, there's actually

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not that much evidence that really
increases our rate of um-ing and uh-ing.

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When we go in front of the executive
leadership and we're talking about

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something very important that we've
done, we're probably going to be

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using higher level vocabulary, things
we're not quite as familiar with.

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So I think when we're hearing
presentations or speeches and people

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do a lot of um-ing and uh-ing,
that is something that annoys us

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because we have an expectation that
they're very well prepared and they

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know what they're going to say.

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So things that signal
they don't disturb us.

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Matt Abrahams: I think
you're exactly right.

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I'd like to turn our attention now to your
second book, which is all about accents.

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You write that we all have accents.

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Why do we so easily notice accents
in others but not ourselves?

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Valerie Fridland: I think the greatest
myth that we operate under every

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day is that we don't have an accent.

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You know, we don't notice our
accents because everybody around

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us generally talks like we do.

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So if you are moving to a new place,
that's really when you're first realizing,

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oh my gosh, I'm the one that sounds funny.

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Because when you are the one that
is the dominant speaker in an

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area, most people are sounding
like you, so you don't hear it.

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You're used to it.

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Particularly when we're children,
we grow up in an area, we kind of

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adjust or normalize to whatever
we hear most often around us.

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Which can also be, not just the accents
that's sort of prevalent in your area,

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but say you're born to a non-native
speaker and you grew up as a native

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speaker in the US for example, you
won't hear your parents' accents because

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you have normalized them as children.

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So we don't hear the accents around us
because we're so familiar with them.

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We also are very heightened
to notice difference.

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So when people come into our communities
and they're not dressing like we are,

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they're not looking like we are, and
really strongly not sounding like we

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are, we notice that and that's where the
sort of the salience of accent comes in.

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Matt Abrahams: I do wanna talk
about culture because accents

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and cultures go together.

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When communicating across cultures
we often focus on learning the right

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vocabulary, the grammar, but you highlight
the rhythm and intonation, like English

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as a stress timed language versus
Spanish or Mandarin being a syllable

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timed, and I'd like for you to explain
those, are huge hurdles for people.

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How do these, what are called prosodic
differences, affect how well speakers are

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understood and evaluated by somebody in
the native language they're now speaking?

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Valerie Fridland: Absolutely.

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When we're learning a language, we work
a lot on sounds, but we really tend to

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ignore some really important areas that
make a big impact on how comprehensible

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you are and how intelligible you are as a
speaker, which is an area that linguists

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called prosodic features or prosody.

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And those include things like
word stress and sentence stress.

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So what's highlighted by
a speaker in a language.

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Tone, which can be like with Mandarin,
tone on a single word can actually

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change the meaning of that word,
something English doesn't have, which

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is obviously something really hard for
English speakers when they're learning

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Mandarin, or intonation patterns,
which as an English speaker, I often

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go down in my tone at the end of a
sentence to signal I'm done talking.

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Conversely, when I have a question,
I often ask that question with a

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rising intonation because that's
signaling that I'm asking a question.

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So that's a sentence level pattern.

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So those are different types of prosodic
features, and they're very difficult

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to learn when you come in from a
language with one system prosodically

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and you're learning a language with
a different system prosodically.

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So for example, as I mentioned
a minute ago, an English speaker

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trying to learn a tonal language.

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Our intonation patterns where we
go up at the end or down at the

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end, make it really hard when we're
trying to get tones on a word.

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The opposite is when we have different
sort of structures to our language

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inherently, and that's where we get
to the stress versus syllable timing,

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where our fundamental way that we
stress syllables in our language

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is different than another one.

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So let's break that down.

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Stress timing is a language like English,
Russian, Arabic, German, and this is

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where particular words or syllables that
you're speaking get more stress than

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others, depending on what the speaker
wants to highlight in that language.

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So certain syllables are louder and
longer, and then the other syllables in

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between actually get smushed together
they had to be said more rapidly to

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fit into a sort of certain timing
unit between those stress syllables.

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So in that language you have a rhythm
that's sort of like dum dum dum.

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So you have the short syllables that
are really jam packed and that's why

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you get things like vowel reduction.

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So when I say the instead of the in
English or a instead of a, it's because

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I'm actually having to squish them
between stress syllables interval.

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In a syllable timed language, which is
something like Spanish or Chinese or

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French or Portuguese, every syllable
has equal stress, so it's more like, bum

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bum, bum, bum bum, bum bum of a rhythm.

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Now this seems very complex and how would
I ever figure out how to switch over?

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Well that's exactly the problem.

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We don't get practice in that.

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And this completely impacts
how well you're understood.

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It may not seem like that big a deal
'cause it just is rhythmic, but it's

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a huge deal because think of a word
as someone who might have a syllable

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time language, like it'd elephant.

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If you didn't know we were talking
about giant things with big ears and

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trunks, you might have no idea what
I said because it's elephant for a

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native English speaker, because I'm
stressing that first syllable and

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then jamming the others really quick.

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But if I have a syllable time
language, I'm going to stress each

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syllable equally and I'll have no
a vowel because that's only happens

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when I remove stress from a syllable.

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So what happens, you can actually get
words that are completely unintelligible

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because you're saying the stress
wrong because you used a syllable time

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pattern on a stress time language.

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So these are things that are really
rarely discussed in language classes.

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There are often problems that people
encounter and they don't know why

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they're having problems being understood.

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And in fact, research suggests that
non-native stress patterns like

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this can infect intelligibility
as much as not being able to

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pronounce the sounds correctly.

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Now there's no easy magic fix, but
the solution is really practice.

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And a lot of that is generally
shadowing native speakers.

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It doesn't have to be interactive,
but you could even record a TV show

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and repeat exactly in the intonation
pattern of that television show, and

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eventually you'll start getting that
rhythm down so there's no easy solution.

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Matt Abrahams: So what I'm hearing
you say, which is super important, for

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people who are trying to learn a second
language, yes, vocabulary and grammar

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are important, but what's as important
and perhaps even more in some cases for

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intelligibility, it is understanding
the rhythm, the stress patterns.

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And as with everything communication
related, it's one thing to

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understand it intellectually.

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It's another thing to do it, and
that's really a way to help yourself.

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I appreciate you identifying that.

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I wanna switch the sides of the equation.

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We often think of the burden of
successful communication as being

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on the speaker, the non-native
speaker producing the information.

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What role does the listener play
in this communicative dynamic?

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And how can we train our ears and
minds to be better able to adapt to

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understanding unfamiliar accents?

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Valerie Fridland: We often really put a
lot of the burden on a non-native speaker.

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Anytime we're having a conversation,
we have this expectation that

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the speaker, it's their job
to make it intelligible to us.

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It's their job to make
their speech understood.

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There are so many different
problems with that equation, but

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let's unpack it a little bit in
terms of why that's not the case.

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First of all, communication's
a partnership.

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Just like a marriage, you can't have a
marriage when one side is doing all the

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work and you can't have a conversation
where one side's doing all the work.

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If you've ever had a conversation where
it's only one sided, it's not a good

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conversation and you probably aren't
gonna keep talking to that person.

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So if we wanna make communication
successful, we have to go into it

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with this understanding that it's
not just their job as a speaker,

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it's my job as a listener to make
this productive and successful.

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There are a couple things at play.

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One is as a listener, I don't
realize sometimes that they're

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not just speaking with an accent,
I'm hearing with an accent.

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And we really put this belief system
around accent on speakers alone, but we

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don't listen without a bias that is shaped
by our own language and accent experience.

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And this affects us in a number of ways.

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One thing is it makes it harder to
understand what sounds they might be

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saying because we have an expectation
about what they're supposed to sound like,

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and maybe they're not sounding that way.

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But two, we also have a role
the brain plays in making people

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better or worse understood.

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So simply by being accustomed to
hearing a certain kind of speech

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and having expectations going
into a conversation about what

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we think someone will sound like.

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So say they look like they'll
speak with an American accent.

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But then it turns out they start speaking
with a French accent, that actually

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causes cognitive disruption for us.

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And I don't mean that in a negative way.

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I simply mean there's an effect on the
brain of this additional processing

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burden that hearing something
unexpected or unfamiliar places on us.

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So there's a bunch of different aspects in
terms of why we're hearing with an accent.

00:13:54.344 --> 00:13:58.334
You know, I think the long story
short of that is to recognize

00:13:58.334 --> 00:14:02.594
that part of the reason we're not
understanding has nothing to do with

00:14:02.594 --> 00:14:04.244
them and everything to do with us.

00:14:04.305 --> 00:14:08.535
And there's often a power dynamic
that puts whoever is dominant in

00:14:08.655 --> 00:14:12.765
that sort of social or institutional
setting in a position where they

00:14:12.765 --> 00:14:16.824
feel that it's the other person's
job to make sure that they're coming

00:14:16.824 --> 00:14:21.144
across clearly and intelligibly, but
that's an impossible task when you

00:14:21.144 --> 00:14:22.764
are not willing to meet them halfway.

00:14:23.214 --> 00:14:29.214
So as listeners and speakers, we need to
both accept our roles and our jobs and

00:14:29.214 --> 00:14:34.614
our faults in speaking and listening to
contribute to getting to a place where

00:14:34.614 --> 00:14:36.144
we can better understand each other.

00:14:36.324 --> 00:14:42.234
One simple option for that as a
listener is if we know to expect

00:14:42.234 --> 00:14:46.569
something unexpected that knowledge
alone decreases the processing burden.

00:14:46.569 --> 00:14:50.889
So simply being more open in our
expectations actually mitigates

00:14:50.889 --> 00:14:51.999
this effect on our brain.

00:14:52.209 --> 00:14:57.969
But also the more accents we hear around
us, the diversity in our institutions,

00:14:57.999 --> 00:15:03.464
diversity in our friend group, the
less unfamiliar accent sound to us, the

00:15:03.464 --> 00:15:05.925
better jobs our brains do more generally.

00:15:05.925 --> 00:15:07.814
So those are easy things to do.

00:15:07.844 --> 00:15:11.714
Be more friends with more people,
be more open in your expectations.

00:15:11.805 --> 00:15:16.004
So I think there's really a two-sided view
we can take on communication, and that's,

00:15:16.185 --> 00:15:19.185
it's a partnership, not a one-sided event.

00:15:19.905 --> 00:15:20.535
Matt Abrahams: Amen.

00:15:20.655 --> 00:15:22.439
Communication takes two, right?

00:15:22.499 --> 00:15:25.754
And we often focus on the producing
of the information, but the receiving

00:15:25.754 --> 00:15:27.134
of it is critically important.

00:15:27.555 --> 00:15:32.834
The idea about processing fluency and
cognitive load are really important,

00:15:32.834 --> 00:15:34.305
and it's not just with accents.

00:15:34.305 --> 00:15:37.395
It's when you're talking about technical
content, you're doing the same thing.

00:15:37.395 --> 00:15:39.495
You're increasing cognitive
load and processing.

00:15:39.824 --> 00:15:42.165
So some of the same advice holds true.

00:15:42.375 --> 00:15:44.295
If you're a listener, have an open mind.

00:15:44.295 --> 00:15:48.645
I like this idea of exposing yourself
to diverse accents and ideas, that helps

00:15:48.645 --> 00:15:50.834
reduce the processing fluency and burden.

00:15:51.194 --> 00:15:53.324
I've often thought about speaking accents.

00:15:53.324 --> 00:15:56.234
I've never thought about listening
accents, and that's a really

00:15:56.385 --> 00:15:58.635
insightful way of thinking about this.

00:15:59.699 --> 00:16:01.709
Valerie, I knew this
was gonna be fantastic.

00:16:01.709 --> 00:16:05.010
You know that when we end, I
always ask three questions.

00:16:05.130 --> 00:16:09.150
One I make up just for you, and two, have
been consistent across all the episodes.

00:16:09.150 --> 00:16:10.620
Are you up for answering these questions?

00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:11.370
Valerie Fridland: Let do it.

00:16:11.370 --> 00:16:11.819
I love it.

00:16:11.969 --> 00:16:12.329
Yes.

00:16:12.390 --> 00:16:12.930
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:16:13.050 --> 00:16:16.469
If you could give just one bit of
advice to somebody who's speaking

00:16:16.469 --> 00:16:19.650
the language that's not their own and
has an accent, what would that be?

00:16:20.084 --> 00:16:23.834
Valerie Fridland: The biggest
advice I can tell you is that not

00:16:23.834 --> 00:16:27.644
to put so much pressure on yourself
to sound like a native speaker.

00:16:27.644 --> 00:16:32.444
We have this weird ideal of what it means
to learn another language, what it means

00:16:32.444 --> 00:16:36.795
to be fluent in that language, what it
means to be successful in that language,

00:16:37.154 --> 00:16:42.014
and it's an unrealistic goal and it
causes all sorts of problems for native

00:16:42.014 --> 00:16:44.415
speakers and non-native speakers alike.

00:16:44.819 --> 00:16:48.449
As I'm entering this new journey
of a language, what my goal

00:16:48.449 --> 00:16:53.159
should be is being successful at
having communicative partnerships.

00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:54.989
That's really what we wanna do.

00:16:55.229 --> 00:16:58.979
It shouldn't be, I wanna sound
like I don't have an accent.

00:16:59.219 --> 00:17:02.789
What we need to do is embrace accents
because they're beautiful and they tell

00:17:02.789 --> 00:17:06.329
us our history, and they also tell us
where we come from in our identities, and

00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:07.859
we should never wanna get rid of that.

00:17:08.189 --> 00:17:13.790
Instead, focus on what helps me
be more easily understood and more

00:17:13.790 --> 00:17:17.964
confident as a speaker because that
is what will make you successful.

00:17:18.264 --> 00:17:20.635
You can communicate very
well with an accent.

00:17:20.814 --> 00:17:24.984
We just need to start believing that more
as a speaker with a non-native variety.

00:17:25.284 --> 00:17:27.115
Matt Abrahams: So it's
really about mindset.

00:17:27.234 --> 00:17:30.834
It's realize that you can be a
very effective communicator even

00:17:30.834 --> 00:17:32.965
though you're speaking a language
that's not your own and you might

00:17:32.965 --> 00:17:34.524
have an accent for those listening.

00:17:34.855 --> 00:17:36.745
The goal is not to sound
like a native speaker.

00:17:36.745 --> 00:17:39.625
The goal is to be successful
in the communication and

00:17:39.625 --> 00:17:41.215
that focus shift can help.

00:17:41.635 --> 00:17:44.545
The advice I always give people
is when you introduce yourself,

00:17:44.755 --> 00:17:46.435
don't start with your name.

00:17:46.435 --> 00:17:51.085
As you alluded to, we're very good at
digesting accents, but when something

00:17:51.085 --> 00:17:54.800
important is said right at the beginning
our brain is still adjusting to,

00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:56.570
oh, that's how that person sounds.

00:17:56.570 --> 00:18:00.259
So I often encourage people who have
accents to start by saying something

00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:01.580
else first before their name.

00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:04.040
Maybe I'm really excited to be
here, or I'm somebody who's very

00:18:04.040 --> 00:18:08.659
passionate about this, and then say
your name so that people have started

00:18:08.659 --> 00:18:10.399
to adjust and adapt to your accent.

00:18:10.399 --> 00:18:13.759
So hopefully those two bits
of advice can help people.

00:18:14.239 --> 00:18:18.350
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:18:18.669 --> 00:18:21.999
Valerie Fridland: I would say that one
person I really admire as a communicator

00:18:21.999 --> 00:18:26.080
in the same sort of space as me, the
science communication, is Adam Grant.

00:18:26.350 --> 00:18:32.439
He does a remarkable job of communicating
really technical research-based

00:18:32.439 --> 00:18:37.209
information in a way that's both
relevant and very accessible to

00:18:37.209 --> 00:18:39.695
everyday speakers, and so I enjoy that.

00:18:40.550 --> 00:18:44.090
Matt Abrahams: Question number three, what
are the first three ingredients that go

00:18:44.090 --> 00:18:46.790
into a successful communication recipe?

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.070
Valerie Fridland: I don't think it's
gonna surprise you that I start with

00:18:49.070 --> 00:18:53.389
listening because we talked so much about
that, and I think we often just worry

00:18:53.389 --> 00:18:56.840
when we go into a conversation about
speaking, what we really should worry

00:18:56.840 --> 00:18:59.240
about is listening, for so many reasons.

00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.480
One is, that makes us better
as a communicator, right?

00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.325
Because we're genuinely paying attention.

00:19:05.054 --> 00:19:09.075
It helps shape how we respond and a lot
of times when we spend too much time

00:19:09.105 --> 00:19:12.735
worrying, and I think non-native speakers
sometimes do this, about what we're

00:19:12.735 --> 00:19:17.925
going to say, we actually miss really
important nuanced points where we can make

00:19:17.925 --> 00:19:20.175
connections because of what they said.

00:19:20.504 --> 00:19:23.655
The other is self-awareness,
and this is different than

00:19:23.655 --> 00:19:25.455
worrying about how I'm sounding.

00:19:25.455 --> 00:19:29.354
This is about understanding that my
own background brings me to every

00:19:29.354 --> 00:19:32.594
conversation with preconceived
notions of how things should go

00:19:32.594 --> 00:19:33.975
and what people should sound like.

00:19:34.245 --> 00:19:38.294
And as we talked about, this influences
the way that we process things.

00:19:38.294 --> 00:19:43.004
So just being aware of that really can
reshape our interactions with people.

00:19:43.334 --> 00:19:45.314
And then the third is smile.

00:19:45.344 --> 00:19:47.024
Be friendly, be open.

00:19:47.084 --> 00:19:51.195
I think sometimes we're so set
on presenting ourselves a certain

00:19:51.195 --> 00:19:56.750
way or being a certain way in a
context, professionally particularly,

00:19:56.990 --> 00:20:00.919
where we forget that just being
friendly and kind and open can

00:20:00.919 --> 00:20:02.840
actually open a lot of doors for us.

00:20:02.840 --> 00:20:08.030
It can be the best nurturing sort
of piece of the puzzle for a good

00:20:08.030 --> 00:20:11.510
conversation, is when someone feels
like you really wanna genuinely have a

00:20:11.510 --> 00:20:15.470
good conversation with them, that you're
happy to be there talking with them.

00:20:15.530 --> 00:20:18.649
I think that makes them more interested
in conversing with you as well.

00:20:19.004 --> 00:20:20.385
Matt Abrahams: That last
part is so important.

00:20:20.385 --> 00:20:23.625
It's really about connection
and regardless of if you have

00:20:23.625 --> 00:20:25.635
an accent or not, you connect.

00:20:25.635 --> 00:20:27.284
I like your point on listening as well.

00:20:27.794 --> 00:20:32.534
Thank you for connecting with us and
for sharing your insights on the value

00:20:32.534 --> 00:20:35.985
and importance of accents and really
reflecting on ways that if we have an

00:20:35.985 --> 00:20:39.795
accent that we can address it, as well
as those of us who are communicating

00:20:39.795 --> 00:20:41.085
with people who have accents.

00:20:41.355 --> 00:20:43.514
As always, Valerie, I
learned so much from you.

00:20:43.514 --> 00:20:46.815
I appreciate your energy, your
insights, and your time today.

00:20:46.815 --> 00:20:47.295
Thank you.

00:20:47.655 --> 00:20:49.274
Valerie Fridland: Always a good
conversation with you, Matt.

00:20:49.274 --> 00:20:49.815
Thanks.

00:20:51.524 --> 00:20:53.325
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:20:53.325 --> 00:20:55.335
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:20:55.514 --> 00:20:58.545
To learn more from Valerie,
please listen to episode 91.

00:20:58.995 --> 00:21:03.345
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.

00:21:03.735 --> 00:21:05.325
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:21:05.355 --> 00:21:08.055
With special thanks to the
Podium Podcast Company.

00:21:08.385 --> 00:21:09.885
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