325. Message Market Fit: Turning Great Ideas Into Communication That Lands

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: Each of us has our
own unique communication signature.

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What is your signature saying about you?

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I am excited to
talk with Oliver Aust.

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Oliver is founder of Speak Like a CEO
Academy, where he coaches executives

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and founders how to refine and
strategize about their communication.

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He's written several books,
including Unignorable and

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Message Machine, and he hosts the
popular podcast Speak Like a CEO.

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Welcome, Oliver.

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I am really excited to be chatting with
you, and it's great to be here in person.

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We've done a lot of chatting over the
years, and I really appreciate your work.

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Thanks for joining.

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Oliver Aust: Thank you for having me.

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It's so great to be face to face
after usually chatting online.

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Normally 6,000 miles and nine
time zones separate us, so it's

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great to be here in person.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Oliver Aust: Mm, lovely.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Here at Stanford, we teach our MBAs
a lot about product market fit to

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increase the likelihood that their
offerings will hit the target, and

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they'll be able to be productive.

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You talk about message market fit.

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What is this, and how can all
of us benefit by maximizing it?

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Oliver Aust: Every company that wants
to be successful needs both product

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market fit, there's a market for your
product, and message market fit, which

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means that you find the right words,
the right story to convince top talent,

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customers, and investors to work with
you, buy from you, invest in you.

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And if you do that, then you can achieve
message market fit, and you need both.

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So in my most recent book, Message
Machine, we looked at why 90% of startups

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fail, plus established companies, their
lifespan gets shorter and shorter as well.

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And more often than not, it's the
lack of message market fit, right?

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You have a product, it works, but there
are just so many products out there,

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it's just very hard to get traction
because let's face it, no one cares

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about us, our company, our products.

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We have to make them care, and
for that, we need the right words.

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Matt Abrahams: Have you found
in your research certain words

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that work or certain ways of
determining which words work?

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Oliver Aust: Yeah, a common mistake I see
is that companies like to talk about the

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product, what they do and why it's great,
and why they're so excited about this.

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That doesn't work.

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You want to talk about the outcome.

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What's in it for them?

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What's in it for your customer?

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You probably heard the phrase, "People
don't want a quarter-inch drill,

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they want a quarter-inch hole." But
I think that's even falling short

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because who wants a hole in the wall?

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People want a picture
nicely hung on the wall.

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So show them the picture.

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Don't just describe the picture.

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Show them the picture.

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Make them see it, make them
feel it, and believe it.

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Make them believe what's possible
if you work together, especially

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of course in the B2B space.

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So that's what I would aim for,
the outcome, what's in it for them.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

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So the stories you're telling to
help your message fit the market is

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to make sure that it's relevant and
you're explaining the value, not what

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it is, but the value it provides.

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Oliver Aust: That's right.

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And it's, you and I could probably
develop an app this weekend on helping

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people how to communicate better, right?

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We could just do it.

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But would it be a
commercially viable operation?

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Would it be a thriving company?

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It depends, right?

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It's so easy to produce new
services and products these

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days, but it's harder to find an
audience and find customers for it.

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So you can see how message-market fit is
even more important than it used to be.

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Matt Abrahams: Oh, absolutely.

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And in fact, I would argue that
as you're developing your product,

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as you're identifying your market,
you need to be thinking about the

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message and the messaging around it.

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Oliver Aust: Yes, do it in parallel.

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Don't create a product and then
think about how you want to sell

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it and find investors, et cetera.

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Do it in parallel.

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Or the Amazon way, you create
the press release first, right?

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And then see if there are
actually words that describe it.

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But it's not easy, especially in the
innovative spaces in the startup world,

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because you're by definition creating
something that probably doesn't exist.

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So finding the right words to describe
it that people understand isn't easy.

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And talk to your customers, right?

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It's sometimes as simple as that.

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You need to go out, founders leave
the building, talk to your customers.

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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And iterate as you go.

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Just like you iterate on the product,
you need to be iterating on the message.

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In your book, Unignorable, you discuss
the necessity of standing out in a

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crowded landscape, and it is getting
more and more crowded every day.

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For founders and leaders trying to
build their brand in today's fast-paced,

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digital, creator-first world, what is
the first step to shifting from being

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overlooked to becoming truly unignorable?

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Oliver Aust: The word unignorable is
actually wordplay on a Steve Martin quote.

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Steve Martin was asked, "What
makes someone successful?" And

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he said, "Be so good they can't
ignore you." And of course, that's

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great if we can be that good.

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But it's only part of the story.

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Because in this day and age, as you said,
we have to also talk about the work.

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So unignorable means you do good
work, but you also talk about it.

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You know, in the same way
you talk about your work.

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We're here to give, not to get, right?

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And there's nothing icky about this.

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So shifting your mindset from, "Oh,
you know, I let the work speak for

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itself," to, "I do good work and talk
about it," that's the first step.

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Then we need the right message, right?

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Our words needs to resonate.

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We need to find an audience,
customers, et cetera.

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So we need the message,
and we also need a method.

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We need to find a way that increases
our reach and our reputation.

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So that's where I would start, with the
mindset, the message, and the method.

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Matt Abrahams: Anybody listening,
and you know this about me, I

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love mnemonics that help us.

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So I loved the three Ms. Can
you break those down for us?

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So the mindset is being comfortable,
being out front with the value you bring.

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Other parts of that mindset piece?

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Oliver Aust: In 2018, when I
started building my brand and

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start to write books, starting
to podcast, I was hesitant.

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And my team told me, "Oliver,
you need to be out there.

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You need to be seen." And I said, "But
it's about the team, it's not about

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me." It's like, "Yeah, we hear you,
but it helps all of us." So I think

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there is this mindset shift that we
all go through, and many of us have

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been brought up not to toot our own
horns, to be humble, and those are

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wonderful qualities and embrace them.

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However, no one will know about us,
and that, in this day and age where,

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let's face it, it's hard out there.

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The labor market's tough.

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We need to be seen.

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So in a way, our personal brand
is our moat in the age of AI.

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Matt Abrahams: Well, I like that.

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Another M to be thinking about.

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So finding that level of comfort
with being out there espousing what

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it is you're representing, your
brand, your idea, your product.

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It is hard.

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It was hard for me, too.

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But if you remind yourself that the
work adds value to other people, and

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being a mouthpiece for that can help.

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In terms of messaging, and I know this
is a huge question, I don't mean it

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to be unfair, but what have you found
most helpful when people are trying to

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present their brand in terms of messaging?

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Oliver Aust: I would focus on
what you bring to the other person

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and also who you are for and who
you're not for and what you're not.

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Because our brains are very
good at understanding contrast.

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I'm this, not that.

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We're not good at understanding better.

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What does that even mean?

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Who's better than what?

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Whose offer is better than what?

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But if I'm saying, you know, "I'm
for leaders. I'm helping leaders

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communicate better with my Speak Like
a CEO method," first of all, I said

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who I am for, and then I said there's
something specific about the way I do it.

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I have my own method, and everything
is my academy and my books, et cetera,

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everything is called Speak Like a CEO.

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So there's something distinctive about
it, and if you say, "I need a workshop

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for 200 employees," it's probably not me.

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I work with leaders.

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So try to be distinctive and try
to be clear who you're for and what

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you're not and who you're not for.

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Matt Abrahams: That idea of contrast,
who you're for, who you're not for,

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what you don't do, very important.

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It helps you define for yourself
who your target audience is, but it

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helps your target audience figure
out if you are appropriate for them.

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So taking the time to do that
thoughtful messaging is important.

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Oliver Aust: That's right, and we
have three C's here that can help us.

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So there's the contrast,
there's the compression.

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So we want to make it short, right?

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We don't want to spend 30
seconds, two minutes to explain

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who we are and what we do.

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And then there's cadence.

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It should sound right.

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And if we have something short,
compressed, something that has good

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cadence, and something that contrasts,
then we're on the right path for

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very strong, very succinct messaging.

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Matt Abrahams: Three M's
that lead to three C's.

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I really like that.

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So the three C's again are
contrast, cadence, and compressed,

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being concise and clear.

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Excellent, and I think those are three
criteria you can use to assess and

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measure any message as you craft them.

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Let's talk about method.

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So there are lots of channels through
which we can communicate information.

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What advice and guidance do you have
for finding the appropriate method

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for the message that you have?

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Oliver Aust: Of course, think about
where your audience is, and for

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many of us, that may be LinkedIn.

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You are very active on LinkedIn.

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I'm very active on LinkedIn.

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And on LinkedIn, I'd say
it's all about your PACE.

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PACE is your profile, your audience,
your content, and the engagement.

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Profile is actually so important
these days for a number of reasons.

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I'd say it's your digital first
impression, so you want to get that right.

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And yet I see a lot of profiles
of professionals that are a

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little, let's say, unloved.

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They could use a little TLC, and I
think it's just professional self-care

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to spend a little time on your profile.

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So that's where I would start.

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Make sure it really represents you well.

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It used to be said that, "Oh, don't
dress for the job you have. Dress for

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the job you want to have." I'd say today
it's, "Don't create a LinkedIn profile

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for the job you have. Create one for
the job you want to have." You know, a

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little TLC is probably in order there.

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So that's the profile.

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And then the A in PACE is your audience.

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Think about who you want to reach
because there are a billion people.

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If you don't have the clarity,
you're not gonna reach anyone.

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Maybe you need 100,000 followers.

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Maybe you just need
1,000 strong connections.

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So reach out to people in your industries.

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Who are the decision makers in
your industry that should know you?

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Engage with their content, reach
out to them, connect with them.

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So think about this with intention.

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Then content.

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You probably think that
LinkedIn is pretty busy, right?

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Lots of people posting content.

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But actually, of the billion
plus people on the platform,

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only 1% of them post regularly,
like a couple of times per week.

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So if you post two times a week,
you're in the top 1% on LinkedIn.

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You're in top 1% in your
industry on LinkedIn.

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And let's say you post good quality
content, you're probably in the 0.1%

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in your industry just by posting a
few solid posts per week, not AI slop.

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And then E, engagement in PACE.

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That is, you need to engage with other
people's content, so they engage with you.

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It's give and take, right?

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It's not, "Oh, please come and engage
with my content," if you're not willing

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to engage with other people's content.

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Matt Abrahams: I love a good
acronym, and I think for any online

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posting, PACE makes a lot of sense.

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Think about your profile, think
about your audience, really focus

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on your content, and then engage.

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Engage not just with your content,
but content of other people.

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If you do that, not only will you
keep up the pace, you'll set the pace.

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I appreciate that.

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So for people who do what we
do, Oliver, anxiety looms large

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for those that we try to help.

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Share with me a little bit about how
you help people feel more comfortable,

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confident, and calm when they communicate.

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Oliver Aust: Maybe I can
contribute one little framework.

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And, and I developed this for
myself because like everyone, you

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know, if the stage is big enough
and the stakes are high enough, I

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think we can all feel it, right?

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So it's BMW: body, mind, and words.

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And it starts with your body and the
order matters because if we're nervous,

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as you know, it's a physiological signal.

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And we can do sighing, we
can do breathing exercises.

00:11:18.727 --> 00:11:22.827
I'm a big fan of movement because if we
stand in the same place or sit in the

00:11:22.827 --> 00:11:24.288
same place, the body can feel trapped.

00:11:24.418 --> 00:11:27.947
So a little movement, light movement,
walking around the block is much better

00:11:27.947 --> 00:11:31.717
than checking our emails before we
go on stage or give a presentation

00:11:31.717 --> 00:11:34.547
because that probably gets our blood
racing and something is in there that

00:11:34.548 --> 00:11:36.058
really excites us in a negative way.

00:11:36.617 --> 00:11:39.387
B, body, breathing, sighing, movement.

00:11:39.767 --> 00:11:40.888
Then mindset.

00:11:41.537 --> 00:11:44.907
It helps to reframe the
nervousness as excitement.

00:11:45.267 --> 00:11:51.257
On top of that, I'm a big fan of power
memories, meaning we think back to

00:11:51.487 --> 00:11:54.137
similar situations that we aced, right?

00:11:54.158 --> 00:11:57.837
If I'm going to present to the
board and my mind goes in all, all

00:11:57.838 --> 00:11:59.367
the things that could go wrong, no.

00:11:59.377 --> 00:12:02.907
Bring your memories back to the
presentations that you did really well.

00:12:03.197 --> 00:12:07.077
So that's a power memory, and it helps
us when we drift off into all the

00:12:07.077 --> 00:12:08.867
negative territory to bring it back.

00:12:09.408 --> 00:12:10.798
And then the W is the words.

00:12:11.438 --> 00:12:14.428
People get nervous because of their
words, because either they haven't

00:12:14.428 --> 00:12:18.527
prepared enough, solution is simple,
or they have prepared in the wrong

00:12:18.537 --> 00:12:23.087
way, which means they have usually
tried to remember a script, right?

00:12:23.117 --> 00:12:25.688
And as you're a big proponent
of structure, you wanna use

00:12:25.688 --> 00:12:27.007
structure, not a script.

00:12:27.107 --> 00:12:28.567
A script is, is very time-consuming.

00:12:28.588 --> 00:12:28.978
It's hard.

00:12:28.987 --> 00:12:31.417
We are not professional actors,
so we wanna use structure.

00:12:31.417 --> 00:12:35.668
We wanna memorize our key messages,
our points, not remember a script.

00:12:35.677 --> 00:12:40.537
So BMW, we reset our nervous system,
we reframe the situation in our

00:12:40.537 --> 00:12:43.887
minds, and then we prepare with
structure to organize our words.

00:12:44.597 --> 00:12:45.398
Matt Abrahams: Well put.

00:12:45.627 --> 00:12:47.417
Again, a useful way of remembering.

00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:50.450
You've redefined the CEO role.

00:12:50.530 --> 00:12:54.840
You argue that the CEO really
should be the storyteller in chief.

00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:58.830
Tell me more about that and how do
we help CEOs, and it doesn't have

00:12:58.830 --> 00:13:02.210
to be CEO, leaders of any type, to
really understand the importance

00:13:02.210 --> 00:13:03.610
of storytelling in their job?

00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:07.029
Oliver Aust: Stories is how we think,
how we make sense of the world, right?

00:13:07.030 --> 00:13:10.409
A two-year-old can understand a
story, but it takes 20 years of

00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:13.869
education, Stanford, for instance,
to be a good finance professional

00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:15.669
or to be, be a doctor or something.

00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:19.549
You can see why storytelling beats
fact-telling every day of the week.

00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:20.870
What does it mean for CEOs?

00:13:20.900 --> 00:13:23.369
I think especially in this day and
age where the world is changing so

00:13:23.369 --> 00:13:27.020
fast, no company can be sure that
it's gonna be around in a few years.

00:13:27.020 --> 00:13:30.329
Many employees worry about what AI
will do to their jobs, their roles.

00:13:30.650 --> 00:13:36.880
I think especially now, a CEO has a duty
to make sense of the world for employees,

00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:38.879
but also for other stakeholders, right?

00:13:38.909 --> 00:13:41.540
Whether it's investors,
regulators, the public.

00:13:41.790 --> 00:13:44.569
I think it's their duty, and
I think that storytelling is

00:13:44.599 --> 00:13:46.769
the right vehicle to do this.

00:13:47.309 --> 00:13:47.739
How?

00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:49.979
To me, there are three levels of speakers.

00:13:49.979 --> 00:13:51.930
The bottom level is of the rambler, right?

00:13:51.930 --> 00:13:55.060
The rambler starts somewhere and ends
somewhere and thinks while they speak,

00:13:55.060 --> 00:13:56.669
but they lose the audience in the process.

00:13:57.129 --> 00:14:01.419
Level two is the robot, and the robot is
scripting it out, rehearsing it 20 times.

00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:04.869
It's gonna be on message, but it's
gonna be stiff and unnatural, so

00:14:04.869 --> 00:14:06.090
it's not gonna be very engaging.

00:14:06.090 --> 00:14:07.460
It's not gonna be a great storyteller.

00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:11.929
So level three is the raconteur, the
storyteller, and the storyteller uses

00:14:11.989 --> 00:14:16.150
story structure, doesn't use scripts,
and just has that mindset of, "I need

00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.879
to tell a story. I need to explain what
our vision is. Where are we going?"

00:14:20.309 --> 00:14:23.089
What, so what, now what is one
of your favorite structures.

00:14:23.369 --> 00:14:25.969
There are some others like
excite, disturb, assure,

00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.170
or goal, problem, solution.

00:14:28.180 --> 00:14:32.040
So I can talk about the things we wanna
achieve as a business, or I say, "Here's

00:14:32.089 --> 00:14:36.370
the goal. Now, here's the challenge we
face, and here's the solution," right?

00:14:36.430 --> 00:14:41.419
And if I do this, then I start becoming
a stronger storyteller, and it's

00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:42.809
not actually rocket science, right?

00:14:42.830 --> 00:14:46.579
It comes so naturally to us once
we overcome this inhibition of,

00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:50.140
"Oh, I need to tell facts and this
is what we do here." I think that

00:14:50.140 --> 00:14:51.739
belongs to the industrial age.

00:14:51.739 --> 00:14:55.019
I think today we live in an age
of visionaries and storytellers

00:14:55.199 --> 00:14:58.169
because none of us knows where we
are going, what happens to the world.

00:14:58.369 --> 00:15:01.549
So the more inspirational, the
more educational a leader can

00:15:01.550 --> 00:15:02.889
be, the better for everyone.

00:15:03.380 --> 00:15:04.139
Matt Abrahams: Well put.

00:15:04.369 --> 00:15:09.959
Having the ability to tell a story, to
focus on the importance of storytelling

00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:13.109
really makes a difference, and it
makes a difference in all of our lives,

00:15:13.110 --> 00:15:14.809
regardless of if we're leaders or not.

00:15:15.990 --> 00:15:17.590
Oliver, I knew this was
going to be fantastic.

00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:20.110
I knew it was because we've had
several conversations, and I always

00:15:20.110 --> 00:15:21.540
learn something and really enjoy it.

00:15:21.780 --> 00:15:24.390
Before we end, you well
know I ask three questions.

00:15:24.390 --> 00:15:27.390
One I make up just for you, and the others
I've been asking people for a long time.

00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:28.010
Are you up for that?

00:15:28.129 --> 00:15:28.719
Oliver Aust: Absolutely.

00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:29.479
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:15:29.870 --> 00:15:33.999
As somebody who studies communication,
has really invested your life in not

00:15:33.999 --> 00:15:37.809
only developing your own, but helping
others, I'm curious if there's one

00:15:37.819 --> 00:15:41.620
area that you find yourself coming back
to that you yourself are working on.

00:15:41.999 --> 00:15:45.299
I constantly have to work
on my listening skills.

00:15:45.350 --> 00:15:49.279
I feel that I can always get better in all
communication, but particularly listening.

00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:52.590
Curious if there's something that you're
working on, and how are you working on it?

00:15:52.999 --> 00:15:55.999
Oliver Aust: I'm trying to work on my
humor and trying to be, you know, more

00:15:55.999 --> 00:15:58.360
interesting, more entertaining because
as you know, the brain doesn't pay

00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.830
attention to boring things, and yet a
lot of business communication is boring.

00:16:02.150 --> 00:16:04.979
So the bar is very low to be a
little more entertaining than

00:16:04.999 --> 00:16:06.349
the next guy who's presenting.

00:16:06.349 --> 00:16:08.300
So that's definitely
an area I'm working on.

00:16:08.300 --> 00:16:10.779
And I learned this from Drew
Tarvin, who wrote a great

00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:11.589
book called Humor That Works.

00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.329
He's a fantastic guy, and we spent
some time together last year.

00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:16.989
And he said, "It's not really about
telling jokes or scripting jokes.

00:16:16.989 --> 00:16:20.269
It's about being that conversational
humor, that levity you bring in,

00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:23.859
and just trying to think, how
can this be a little more fun?

00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:25.629
How can this presentation
a little more fun?

00:16:25.630 --> 00:16:28.449
Okay, maybe there's a meme, maybe
there's a funny picture I can use.

00:16:28.609 --> 00:16:31.079
How can we make this conversation
more fun?" These little

00:16:31.089 --> 00:16:32.499
things, that's often enough.

00:16:32.530 --> 00:16:34.449
It's not ha-ha, laugh out loud.

00:16:34.490 --> 00:16:35.720
It's really those little steps.

00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.010
So humor is definitely an area.

00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:38.859
Matt Abrahams: I personally
need to work on that, too.

00:16:38.859 --> 00:16:43.350
But this idea of bringing levity allows
for connection and allows for energy,

00:16:43.369 --> 00:16:44.689
and I appreciate you working on it.

00:16:44.689 --> 00:16:46.680
And, and I've known you long enough
to know you're pretty good at it.

00:16:46.709 --> 00:16:47.379
You're pretty funny.

00:16:47.749 --> 00:16:51.349
Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:16:51.909 --> 00:16:55.799
Oliver Aust: 2021, there was a new CEO
of the Hugo Boss company, that's a German

00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.339
apparel company, called Daniel Riekert.

00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:01.429
And he came in, the company was
in a slightly challenged position.

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:06.049
And in the first week, he assembled
his top 100 leaders, and he said to

00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:07.930
them, "Look, we have a choice here.

00:17:07.979 --> 00:17:11.629
We can either spend the next year
getting to know each other and

00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:16.229
building trust, or we decide right
here that we trust each other.

00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:17.969
Now, I know this is a great company.

00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:19.170
Only great people work here.

00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:21.879
That's why I'm telling you
now, I'm trusting you."

00:17:22.310 --> 00:17:26.069
And the team responded in
kind and also trusted him.

00:17:26.509 --> 00:17:29.239
And the result was the next few
years were actually very strong

00:17:29.269 --> 00:17:31.850
from a business perspective and
obviously made things easier.

00:17:32.179 --> 00:17:35.640
So for me, the lesson is, as a
leader, as a communicator, be

00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.230
trusting and be trustworthy.

00:17:38.409 --> 00:17:39.609
That's how you build trust.

00:17:39.619 --> 00:17:43.080
And that's why I admire him for
this statement and this approach

00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:44.319
because I think it's not easy.

00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.449
You come into a new company that
isn't doing so well, to be that

00:17:47.509 --> 00:17:50.880
trusting in the people who are
already there, that's a move

00:17:51.744 --> 00:17:52.793
Matt Abrahams: I appreciate
you sharing that.

00:17:53.283 --> 00:17:56.214
At the end of the day, trust
underlies communication.

00:17:56.283 --> 00:17:57.654
It's about connection and trust.

00:17:58.024 --> 00:18:01.394
But when we had Jamil Zaki on as a guest,
he said one of the things we can do to

00:18:01.404 --> 00:18:03.484
really build trust is to trust loudly.

00:18:03.543 --> 00:18:07.594
In other words, state out loud your trust,
and you just gave a great example of that.

00:18:08.184 --> 00:18:11.573
Hate to have to ask our final question,
but we do have to bring this to an end.

00:18:11.973 --> 00:18:16.473
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:18:17.063 --> 00:18:19.563
Oliver Aust: I think we often jump to
the question, "Oh, what am I gonna say?"

00:18:20.083 --> 00:18:23.533
I would suggest let's take a step back
and just strategize for a few seconds.

00:18:23.883 --> 00:18:25.344
I always start with character.

00:18:25.374 --> 00:18:26.914
Like, how do I want to show up?

00:18:27.283 --> 00:18:28.574
Am I a coach, a mentor?

00:18:28.574 --> 00:18:29.483
Do I want to inspire?

00:18:29.484 --> 00:18:30.293
Do I inform?

00:18:30.683 --> 00:18:32.543
Second is context.

00:18:33.014 --> 00:18:34.883
And there I put myself in the
shoes of the audience, right?

00:18:34.903 --> 00:18:36.894
What are their worries, their
fears, their hopes, desires?

00:18:36.894 --> 00:18:38.983
What's their state of mind
for this conversation?

00:18:39.413 --> 00:18:41.563
And only thirdly, content.

00:18:41.843 --> 00:18:42.983
What do I want to say?

00:18:43.453 --> 00:18:47.513
So character, context, and content.

00:18:47.563 --> 00:18:50.743
Those are three ingredients I
would think about before any

00:18:50.993 --> 00:18:52.563
presentation, conversation, et cetera.

00:18:53.163 --> 00:18:53.813
Matt Abrahams: Enough said.

00:18:53.893 --> 00:18:54.823
You paraphrased it.

00:18:54.863 --> 00:18:56.904
You gave an excellent tool to remember it.

00:18:57.073 --> 00:19:01.924
Those three make for excellent
communication, as does all your advice.

00:19:02.024 --> 00:19:06.873
You have been very helpful in giving us
actionable, clear, and memorable tips.

00:19:06.883 --> 00:19:08.433
Oliver, you did not disappoint.

00:19:08.503 --> 00:19:09.323
I knew you wouldn't.

00:19:09.533 --> 00:19:11.003
Thank you so much for joining us.

00:19:11.203 --> 00:19:11.643
Oliver Aust: Thank you, Matt.

00:19:11.664 --> 00:19:14.294
I really appreciate all the work you're
doing, and love your book, as you know.

00:19:14.294 --> 00:19:15.174
So appreciate it.

00:19:16.753 --> 00:19:18.583
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
listening to another episode of

00:19:18.594 --> 00:19:20.574
Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:19:20.933 --> 00:19:23.813
To learn more about how to be an
effective communicator, please listen

00:19:23.813 --> 00:19:26.284
to episode 82 with Nancy Duarte.

00:19:26.793 --> 00:19:30.004
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

00:19:30.124 --> 00:19:32.273
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:19:32.823 --> 00:19:35.494
Our music is from Floyd
Wonder, with special thanks

00:19:35.503 --> 00:19:37.164
to the Podium Podcast Company.

00:19:37.583 --> 00:19:40.554
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:19:40.793 --> 00:19:42.944
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:19:43.203 --> 00:19:46.393
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00:19:46.723 --> 00:19:50.863
And check out fastersmarter.io for
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00:19:50.863 --> 00:19:53.023
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