302. Master This: How to Learn Like the Experts Do

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: To truly hone and
master a skill, we have to take

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the time to learn from experts.

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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I look forward to
chatting with David Rogier.

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David is the founder and CEO of
MasterClass, the streaming platform

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that makes it possible for anyone
to learn from the world's best.

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David is passionate about democratizing
access to genius-level knowledge.

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Well, David, thank you
so much for joining me.

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I'm really excited for our conversation.

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Shall we get started?

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David Rogier: Let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: So to begin, I am
a avid participant and student of

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Masterclass, and thanks to you and
your team, I'm honored that I have

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a Masterclass certifications course
coming out on strategic communication.

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And so thank you for that.

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It was a lot of fun, and I hope
everybody gets a lot of value out of it.

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Like me, you are very
passionate about education.

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I'd like to start by asking
you what motivates you to help

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others learn and develop skills?

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David Rogier: I was raised in part
by my grandmother, and my grandmother

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escaped the Holocaust, and I think
one of the things that she really

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instilled in me, that education's
the only thing that someone can't

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take away from somebody else.

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And I think I really internalized
that at a very young age.

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That definitely drove me to create
MasterClass, but also I think

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probably fueled my zest for learning.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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And you've brought that learning
to lots and lots of people.

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In the early days of MasterClass,
uh, you had to convince world-class

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talent to trust you, a small startup.

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How did you think about pitching what
you were doing to people of that nature?

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David Rogier: I assumed that
it was gonna function the same

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way as in the business world.

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In the business world, if you know
somebody in common with somebody else,

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the person makes an introduction,
you will usually talk to them.

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It's not how it works in
the entertainment industry.

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In fact, it's designed to do the opposite.

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Every celebrity has four to
five people whose job it is,

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is to not let you do that.

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So every celebrity has an agent, a
manager, a PR person, sometimes a

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financial advisor, and usually a spouse.

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Now, of those five people,
only one of them has actual

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influence over that person.

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But the job of the other four is
to convince you that it's them.

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But it's not.

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It's only one of them.

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And if you go to the wrong person,
you're gonna get a fast no.

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So part of the craft
was to just learn that.

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Two was then to figure out who is
that one of the five, and then how

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do I pitch that one of the five?

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And what I had to learn was that I have
to get them to like me and trust me.

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And I can do that in a few ways.

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I could associate and attach
myself to people on the project

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and bring them in who they trust.

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So these were film directors they'd
already worked with before, or film

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directors that had won an Oscar before.

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The thing about their fear is like,
is this person going to look bad?

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And so how do you drop that risk?

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Two was you have to get them to
actually like you and trust you.

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And I had to learn the craft of that.

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And I think I walked into those early
rooms thinking, "I'm pretty special.

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I have a master's degree from Stanford.

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My mom says I'm amazing.

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This idea is going to change the world of
education." People don't care about that.

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People care about themselves.

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And so it was much more effective for me
to ask them questions, a lot of questions.

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And when somebody asks you questions
about things that you want to

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talk about, you like them more.

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Now, I think there's a craft
to what questions you ask.

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You have to do it something that
you're actually interested in, because

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otherwise people feel that instantly.

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So I'm glad to dive more into that,
but I think there is a craft to

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how to pitch, and a lot of that
is relationship building for this.

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Matt Abrahams: So many rich things
there that you talked about.

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First, you have to start by really
appreciating the circumstance

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and those who have access and
influence to the people that you're

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trying to persuade or motivate.

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You have to think about
how you approach them.

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In your case, it was about
de-risking the reputation and really

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coming from a place of authentic
curiosity to get them talking.

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And I think we can all benefit from
that in anything we're pitching

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or in any relationship, and you've
been quite successful at it.

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Having been in the chair for a
MasterClass certificates, I have witnessed

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firsthand the production quality.

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That seems to be very important to you
and to your team to make sure that it

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really has an aesthetic and a look.

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Talk to me about where that comes from
and how those listening who aren't

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going to have access to the crews
and the expertise that you have, how

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important is it to really think through
the visuals, the experience, even

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for those of us who are just doing
virtual calls and video conferencing?

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David Rogier: Part of our success is that
our classes do not look like a class.

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They look like a Netflix movie.

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Now, it's not just the look, it's also
then the production value, how engaging

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it is, and all those other things.

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I had filmed some stuff on my own for
test shoots, and they looked horrible.

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And so we went to our friends and
people we knew, and one of the

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first people we went to was actually
a professor here at Stanford.

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His name is Professor Bill Guttentag.

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He's, he's an Oscar-winning film director.

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And I, I got introduced to him, and
I was like, "Hey, I'm really stuck.

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Our stuff looks bad." You
know, I was like, "Any advice?

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What types of people?

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What type of gear?" And he's like,
"You're not gonna ask me to shoot?"

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I'm like, "You're willing to shoot it?"

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He's like, "Yeah, sounds awesome."
So Bill shot a bunch of our first

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classes, and that really upleveled us.

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The other person was Jay Roach, who had
a really big impact on that too, and

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also shot some of our first few classes.

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I think that did a couple things.

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One, it achieved what we wanted to on the
engagement side and how good it looked.

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Two, it brought down the risk for the
instructors, 'cause if Bill Guttentag

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and Jay Roach are gonna film this, I've
seen their stuff, it's really good.

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Okay, I know I'm gonna look pretty good.

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So if you're at home doing this,
I think, think a lot about what

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is the form factor supposed to be.

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So for example, if it's live Zoom
calls that you're doing, then, like,

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it should look like a Zoom call.

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But I think there's opportunities
to make that look good, and I think

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some aren't that expensive to do.

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And I think one of the best ways to figure
that out is look at two or three films or

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TV shows or YouTube things that you think
look really good, and break down yourself,

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or find a friend who knows more than
you, break down how did they make that.

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And oftentimes you're gonna be like,
"Oh, it's the location's actually more

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important than I thought." 'Cause the
location adds depth, lighting, everything.

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So you're like, "You know what? Maybe
I should just invest in where I shoot

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and the time of day." And you're
gonna start to see things like that.

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That's not that expensive, but
that actually has a huge impact.

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Matt Abrahams: Really important point
I wanna put an exclamation point on,

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which is think about the environment
in which you present yourself, and

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second, look at and observe others that
you enjoy, that you think add value,

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and then explore how they do that.

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And like you said, it's not
that expensive, but it can

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make a tremendous difference.

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The content is important,
but the experience of the

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content is equally important.

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I really like that.

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As a leader, you lead people who are
very technical, very content specific,

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but also others who are very creative.

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That can be hard in terms of management
and leadership style to lead people

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whose goal is the creative and those
who are the business and more technical.

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Any advice and guidance to our listeners
who find themselves in a similar role?

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What helps you manage those
different types of people?

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David Rogier: You have to adapt.

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I think it helps to go
deep with some of them.

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So if you're working with folks in
film, sit in the edit bays with them.

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Watch as sound is mixed.

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Get deep so that you know each
step of it and what it takes.

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In the same way, if it's engineering
or marketing or whatever, I have

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found that my style has to change.

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So on the content side, creatives
respond much stronger to a

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note that is a high-level note.

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"Hey, in, in this portion I find
my attention is starting to wane.

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You know, like, why is that?

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Or what are we able to do about
it?" And they need just high-level

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note, and it's not you solving it
for them, it's just the observation.

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I found, though, like, on the
marketing side or on the product

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side, folks like more specific notes.

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If you're like, "You know, this page, I'm
just not feeling to click," they're like,

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"What the hell does that mean?" Versus
like, "Hey, the call to action, I think,

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isn't bold enough, isn't strong enough."
Like, okay, yes, I can work on that.

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So I found that I have to
change the altitude almost.

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Matt Abrahams: That agility all of
us can develop, but it's really the

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sensitivity to what does this person
or these type of people in these

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roles, what do they respond best to?

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And I really like this idea of giving
feedback through questions and then

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also being able to get very specific
to what your experience is and how

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that relates to perhaps others.

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David Rogier: And it's hard because,
like, when I'm tired or frustrated, I

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just want to say, "Please change this to
this and this to this." And I've done that

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before, and it's not nearly as effective
'cause the mental shortcut I'm taking is

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I know more than that person, and I don't.

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And so it feels good at the time
and it's easier to do, but it

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usually ends up a worse result.

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Matt Abrahams: In the moment, it might
feel like it's solving the situation

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or the problem, but in fact, it might
be causing damage in the future.

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David Rogier: Yes.

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Matt Abrahams: I know this is a
completely unfair question, but across

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the content that you have created and
brought to the world, is there one area

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or one lesson that you've learned that
has really profoundly impacted you?

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David Rogier: I mean, we have sat
across from 300 of the best in the

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world, from Christina Aguilera to
Steph Curry to Matt Abrahams, and I

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think I had this assumption that once
you reach the top, you just chill.

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Like Christina can sing when she wants
to, Steph can play how long he wants

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to, and that, that you're in a state
where you can choose when to invest time

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and you don't need to invest that much.

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Boy, was I wrong.

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Every instructor, as we film on
any cut, is asking us for notes.

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Once the class is done, we're in
the testing phase, instructors want

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all the input they already gave.

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Once a class is live, most of them
send us an email or call us and be

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like, "I want to change this. I think
this is able to be improved." And I

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realize that if these masters are still
continually trying to improve their

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own craft, I don't have any excuses.

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Like I gotta keep doing that.

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And so I think that was a lot
of personal growth for me.

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Matt Abrahams: I think that's a wonderful
lesson, that the people at the top

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of their game are still working and
striving, and perhaps that's what helped

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them get to the top of their game.

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I'd like to get personal.

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You and I talked about this a little bit.

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So you have a stutter.

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It is something you've
had for your whole life.

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What have you learned about
communication through having a

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stutter, and what has it changed?

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And what advice would you give to people
who might have some speech impediment,

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everything from an accent to a stutter?

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David Rogier: It was really hard as a kid.

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I mean, I was teased for it.

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I think teachers in school didn't know how
to handle it, so some would not call on me

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'cause, you know, out of positive intent,
but not wanting me to have to speak.

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When I was called on to read something,
if you stutter, it's very difficult

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because one of the tools you use is
you substitute words, and you can't

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do that when you read something.

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I think what it made me, throughout
my life, is my empathy for people in

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expressing themselves is much higher.

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I think I'm much more aware of speech, and
I told you, I think one of the things I

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started doing as a kid was watching people
give speeches and just being more aware

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of the, of the mechanics that they use.

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So became, I became much
more obsessed with it.

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I think my approach, I think my
parents had a big impact on, was, you

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know, when I was a kid, my parents'
approach was, "We expect you to talk

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and communicate. You can stutter, you
stutter, but we don't expect you to let

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that block you from doing anything."
And so when they had friends over, the

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expectation was I would sit with their
friends and join them in conversation.

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And so I think their very much approach
was, "I'm gonna give you a hug, but

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you just are gonna keep going." So
I think that's probably part of my

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appreciation on the oratory side.

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Matt Abrahams: That notion of taking
what you're dealt with and managing

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it, I think, is important for
everybody, be it an accent, a stutter.

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I'm noticing a theme, David, across
everything we've talked about.

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Tenacity plays a role.

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We talked about tenacity in pursuing
getting people to sign up when you

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were just starting out, tenacity in the
work that you admire and the masters

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you bring on, and tenacity in your
own life to just keep going with your

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communication, and that's something
that I think all of us can benefit from.

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And it will look different for
all of us, but it's important.

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David Rogier: Yeah, I don't think
life is worth to live without that.

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You have to work hard.

00:13:11.505 --> 00:13:12.925
And I think sometimes it surprises.

00:13:12.935 --> 00:13:16.745
Like, I remember I was in, in some
group, we had an exercise where we would

00:13:16.755 --> 00:13:21.515
give people feedback on how they, how
the person talks, and I was shocked.

00:13:21.705 --> 00:13:23.225
I got notes on my stutter.

00:13:23.476 --> 00:13:26.995
And what the group said, the
effects were, it was the opposite

00:13:27.165 --> 00:13:27.749
of what I had in my head.

00:13:27.749 --> 00:13:32.115
In my head, makes me sound less smart,
makes me not get the idea out, people

00:13:32.115 --> 00:13:35.765
get bored, the people get annoyed, people
have the urge to say the word for you.

00:13:36.005 --> 00:13:38.145
And the feedback from the group was
like, "Oh, that doesn't go through our

00:13:38.145 --> 00:13:40.535
head." I'm like, "What?" I'm like, "What
does go through your head?" They're

00:13:40.535 --> 00:13:43.336
like, "Oh, I'm more endeared to you.

00:13:43.605 --> 00:13:45.445
Like, I'm seeing this
is difficult for you.

00:13:45.615 --> 00:13:48.865
I'm more, like, attached to you." I'm
like, "I'm sorry, what?" And it's just

00:13:48.906 --> 00:13:54.186
for 28 years of my life, I had this
one story in my head, and that was not

00:13:54.186 --> 00:13:55.745
the story everybody else was having.

00:13:55.945 --> 00:13:58.166
And you're like, and I think
that's true for so many of the

00:13:58.166 --> 00:13:59.465
things that we are insecure about.

00:14:00.005 --> 00:14:01.505
Matt Abrahams: What a
lovely gift to get that.

00:14:01.785 --> 00:14:05.145
And perhaps there's a lesson in there
for all of us to seek out feedback

00:14:05.145 --> 00:14:08.895
from trusted others who can help us
check our assumptions, because you

00:14:08.895 --> 00:14:12.136
had an assumption going into this
that was contrary to what you learned.

00:14:13.294 --> 00:14:15.414
This whole conversation
has been fantastic, David.

00:14:15.424 --> 00:14:17.404
As you well know, I end
with three questions.

00:14:17.404 --> 00:14:19.694
One I make up just for you,
and two that I've been asking

00:14:19.694 --> 00:14:20.664
everybody for a long time.

00:14:20.664 --> 00:14:21.254
Are you up for that?

00:14:21.334 --> 00:14:21.884
David Rogier: Let's do it.

00:14:22.234 --> 00:14:23.313
Matt Abrahams: Another personal question.

00:14:23.324 --> 00:14:25.684
You and I talked on our way over
to this conversation, that you

00:14:25.684 --> 00:14:27.084
and I are both martial artists.

00:14:27.493 --> 00:14:28.964
Tenacity is part of that as well.

00:14:29.223 --> 00:14:32.783
What draws you to the martial arts, and
are there any lessons that you've learned?

00:14:32.823 --> 00:14:35.613
I, I've learned a lot of
lessons for life in the dojo.

00:14:35.964 --> 00:14:38.124
I'm curious what draws
you and what lessons?

00:14:38.583 --> 00:14:42.413
David Rogier: Part of what draws me
in, I like it that for the hour, hour

00:14:42.413 --> 00:14:45.563
and a half I'm there, you can't think
of anything else, 'cause otherwise

00:14:45.564 --> 00:14:46.744
you are gonna get choked out.

00:14:47.303 --> 00:14:51.743
I also, it makes me so much more
aware of things I wasn't aware of.

00:14:52.223 --> 00:14:58.584
The angle of my wrist, the,
how I'm shifting my, my weight.

00:14:59.123 --> 00:15:04.863
And there's an appreciation of craft and
skill that was invisible to me before.

00:15:04.864 --> 00:15:07.614
I didn't even know, I never even
thought of those things before.

00:15:07.884 --> 00:15:09.064
So there's appreciation there.

00:15:09.473 --> 00:15:13.913
There is a humility, because you
get your butt kicked all the time.

00:15:14.353 --> 00:15:16.674
Matt Abrahams: There's nothing
like the immediate feedback

00:15:16.674 --> 00:15:18.624
you get in a physical activity.

00:15:18.944 --> 00:15:20.583
There's no if, ands, and buts.

00:15:20.584 --> 00:15:22.493
You get the feedback, both good and bad.

00:15:22.944 --> 00:15:27.653
And I totally resonate when you say you
become aware of things that you didn't

00:15:27.654 --> 00:15:29.444
even know that you didn't know you knew.

00:15:29.784 --> 00:15:33.483
And I totally appreciate that
presence that it requires.

00:15:33.523 --> 00:15:37.063
And these are skills that anybody
can find in any physical activity.

00:15:37.063 --> 00:15:39.883
It doesn't have to be grappling with
somebody or throwing a kick or a punch.

00:15:39.883 --> 00:15:41.173
It could be walking in nature.

00:15:41.374 --> 00:15:42.793
But I really like that you see that.

00:15:43.512 --> 00:15:46.862
Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:15:47.262 --> 00:15:47.962
David Rogier: There are a lot.

00:15:48.252 --> 00:15:50.651
I'm gonna pick one that isn't as expected.

00:15:51.242 --> 00:15:53.281
Vintage Jesse Jackson.

00:15:53.702 --> 00:15:59.261
There's a speech he gave in 1984 when he
was running to be the Democratic nominee

00:16:02.322 --> 00:16:06.551
for president, and he gave the
speech in a church in Philadelphia.

00:16:07.082 --> 00:16:08.681
The speech is remarkable.

00:16:09.092 --> 00:16:10.411
Matt Abrahams: Amazing example.

00:16:10.661 --> 00:16:13.071
He's clearly a, a, an
amazing communicator.

00:16:13.681 --> 00:16:14.731
Final question, David.

00:16:14.921 --> 00:16:19.252
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:16:19.691 --> 00:16:23.801
David Rogier: I think you've got to
figure out, one is, what does that

00:16:23.801 --> 00:16:26.012
person actually want and need right now?

00:16:26.531 --> 00:16:28.111
This is another part of your, of yours.

00:16:28.481 --> 00:16:33.321
Then the ability to change and adapt that
on the fly when you see they've done it.

00:16:33.702 --> 00:16:36.771
And then keeping, like,
the eyes on the prize.

00:16:37.121 --> 00:16:42.081
What I mean by this is you might
be in a negotiation where somebody

00:16:42.131 --> 00:16:46.002
just needs to vent, and when they
vent, they're gonna say things that

00:16:46.002 --> 00:16:47.711
you probably do not agree with.

00:16:48.191 --> 00:16:52.151
But if your eye's on the prize and the
prize is to close a deal, you don't need

00:16:52.262 --> 00:16:53.801
to argue about each of those things.

00:16:54.411 --> 00:16:56.491
You just let the person talk.

00:16:57.031 --> 00:17:00.372
You say you've hear, you heard
them, and you try to figure

00:17:00.372 --> 00:17:01.802
out how to move things along.

00:17:02.002 --> 00:17:04.341
But it's very easy to be like, "Whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't agree

00:17:04.341 --> 00:17:07.511
to parts two, eight, and twelve
that you just said." But doing that

00:17:07.511 --> 00:17:08.422
isn't gonna actually solve anything.

00:17:08.981 --> 00:17:09.981
Matt Abrahams: So it's about audience.

00:17:09.981 --> 00:17:11.291
Make sure you understand what they need.

00:17:11.301 --> 00:17:11.321
Yeah.

00:17:11.332 --> 00:17:15.511
It's about agility to adjust to what
happens and then that focus on what

00:17:15.511 --> 00:17:18.831
your ultimate goal is, regardless
of some of the hiccups and backwards

00:17:18.831 --> 00:17:20.051
steps that happen along the way.

00:17:21.111 --> 00:17:23.271
David, this has been a
fantastic conversation.

00:17:23.481 --> 00:17:27.711
Sharing your motivations, your
tenacity are great insights for all

00:17:27.711 --> 00:17:30.522
of us and, and a role model for what
we can achieve, and thank you for

00:17:30.522 --> 00:17:35.581
putting out educational content that
we can all benefit from and grow with.

00:17:35.771 --> 00:17:37.932
David Rogier: Oh my God, of course,
and thanks for being a part of it.

00:17:39.601 --> 00:17:41.731
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:17:41.731 --> 00:17:43.491
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:17:44.002 --> 00:17:47.611
To learn more about communication in
a variety of contexts, please check

00:17:47.621 --> 00:17:50.181
out our many back catalog episodes.

00:17:50.511 --> 00:17:53.761
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

00:17:53.881 --> 00:17:56.301
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:17:56.651 --> 00:18:00.741
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:18:01.201 --> 00:18:04.241
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