304. Rethinks: Craft Compelling Communication

WEBVTT

00:00:02.926 --> 00:00:06.386
Matt Abrahams: The ability to pitch an
idea or product well can often mean the

00:00:06.386 --> 00:00:09.026
difference between success and failure.

00:00:09.336 --> 00:00:12.346
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

00:00:12.346 --> 00:00:14.256
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

00:00:14.536 --> 00:00:19.565
Welcome to this special Rethinks episode
of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:00:20.305 --> 00:00:25.186
When I first met famed pitching guru
Guy Kawasaki, I learned so much.

00:00:25.526 --> 00:00:28.645
That's why I wanted to bring
Guy's advice back for all of you.

00:00:29.076 --> 00:00:32.565
And since he provided so much
value, we're sharing the extended

00:00:32.565 --> 00:00:34.025
version of my conversation.

00:00:34.375 --> 00:00:35.015
Enjoy.

00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:41.560
Getting to the point is critical in
all communication, but especially

00:00:41.570 --> 00:00:43.390
storytelling and pitching.

00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:47.620
My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

00:00:47.620 --> 00:00:49.299
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

00:00:49.599 --> 00:00:53.059
Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:56.089
Today, I'm excited to
speak with Guy Kawasaki.

00:00:56.449 --> 00:00:59.779
Guy is a renowned author,
speaker, and entrepreneur.

00:01:00.199 --> 00:01:04.199
He was chief evangelist for Apple
in the late 1980s and early '90s.

00:01:04.529 --> 00:01:07.430
Currently, Guy works for
Canva, which he co-founded.

00:01:07.689 --> 00:01:11.540
He hosts a podcast and has authored
many books, including his latest,

00:01:11.570 --> 00:01:15.770
Remarkable: Nine Paths to Transform
Your Life and Make a Difference.

00:01:16.279 --> 00:01:20.610
Guy, I had a great time chatting
with you on your Remarkable podcast.

00:01:20.619 --> 00:01:21.959
It's such a fun conversation.

00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:23.479
I'm looking forward to
our conversation here.

00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.519
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I hope we
can exceed what we did there.

00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:27.469
Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you so much.

00:01:27.469 --> 00:01:28.189
Shall we get started?

00:01:28.430 --> 00:01:28.870
Guy Kawasaki: Yes.

00:01:29.539 --> 00:01:31.169
Matt Abrahams: So you wear many hats.

00:01:31.250 --> 00:01:34.949
The one that intrigues me most
is your role as chief evangelist.

00:01:34.949 --> 00:01:36.909
You were a chief evangelist
at Apple, currently at Canva.

00:01:37.779 --> 00:01:41.749
What does a chief evangelist do, and,
and how do you know if you're successful?

00:01:42.069 --> 00:01:46.170
Guy Kawasaki: So it comes from a Greek
term that means bringing the good news.

00:01:46.270 --> 00:01:47.829
That's evangelism.

00:01:48.249 --> 00:01:51.370
And so what an evangelist
does is bring the good news.

00:01:51.410 --> 00:01:53.329
And so what is good news?

00:01:53.329 --> 00:01:56.410
Good news is when you make
the world a better place.

00:01:56.459 --> 00:02:00.179
With Macintosh, we made people
more creative and productive.

00:02:00.479 --> 00:02:04.869
With Canva, where I'm chief evangelist
now, the good news is that Canva

00:02:04.889 --> 00:02:08.929
has democratized design so that
people can be a better communicator.

00:02:09.119 --> 00:02:15.819
So arguably, the chief evangelist is
the chief cheerleader of the good news.

00:02:16.169 --> 00:02:20.399
Matt Abrahams: So in that role, you spend
a lot of time thinking about what's the

00:02:20.399 --> 00:02:24.579
value that we bring to our clients and
our customers, and how do I champion that?

00:02:24.929 --> 00:02:28.759
Guy Kawasaki: To be honest with you,
if you are really evangelizing a great

00:02:28.770 --> 00:02:33.089
product, you don't need to spend a lot
of time thinking about what the value is.

00:02:33.090 --> 00:02:34.749
It should be very obvious.

00:02:35.209 --> 00:02:39.020
If I had to spend a lot of time
thinking about the value of a Macintosh

00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:42.869
or a Canva, that kind of says that
maybe it's not such good news.

00:02:42.979 --> 00:02:44.839
Good news should be obvious.

00:02:45.499 --> 00:02:48.699
A lot of people tell me, "What's it
take to be a great evangelist?" And I'll

00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.150
tell them, "90% of it is the product."

00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:53.929
Matt Abrahams: One of the things that I
know you're very passionate about, had

00:02:53.929 --> 00:02:57.420
a lot of thoughts on, is storytelling,
and I'd love to get your advice and

00:02:57.420 --> 00:03:02.089
guidance for our listeners on how
best to craft stories that can be

00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:05.530
memorable and actually move people in
the direction you want them to go in.

00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:07.880
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I can tell
you, like, in the last two years,

00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:11.389
there's been something that
truly has helped storytellers.

00:03:11.390 --> 00:03:15.279
Um, two years ago or three years
ago, you would have to have a very

00:03:15.289 --> 00:03:22.240
broad knowledge of stories, constant
reading, constant watching, always on

00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.260
the alert looking for good stories.

00:03:24.260 --> 00:03:29.490
You have to be really aware that if you're
in an airport and you see somebody throw

00:03:29.490 --> 00:03:31.640
a bag down, and you know what happens.

00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:33.200
And it takes a lot of awareness.

00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:38.299
And I think that there's this story
about how some, I can't remember

00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:44.049
which hamburger joint did this, but
they introduced a third pounder,

00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:48.810
and they wanted to have more sales,
obviously, than the quarter pounder.

00:03:48.899 --> 00:03:54.360
But many people thought that because
four is bigger than three, a quarter

00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.299
pounder is more meat than a third
pounder, which mathematically is wrong.

00:03:59.910 --> 00:04:04.509
But it's a great story to use in
a speech about being aware and

00:04:04.519 --> 00:04:08.439
not assuming that the audience
understands what you're saying.

00:04:08.440 --> 00:04:12.370
I mean, there's a lot of lessons in that
story alone, and I think that ChatGPT

00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:14.959
would've easily given you that story.

00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.759
Matt Abrahams: Part of a good
story is finding content that

00:04:17.789 --> 00:04:19.239
resonates and is appropriate.

00:04:19.419 --> 00:04:23.690
When you craft stories, and you are
an expert storyteller, when you craft

00:04:23.690 --> 00:04:28.159
a story, what are the things that you
are thinking about in terms of the

00:04:28.159 --> 00:04:31.099
sequencing, how you start, how you end?

00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:32.729
What, what's your thought process?

00:04:33.198 --> 00:04:40.948
Guy Kawasaki: It starts with the awareness
that you have to entertain your audience.

00:04:40.998 --> 00:04:45.308
I think too many people as speakers,
they think, "Oh my God, I need to inform

00:04:45.417 --> 00:04:50.918
my audience, and I need to, like, get
my pitch across. I need to get my story

00:04:50.918 --> 00:04:54.817
across. You know, my people are telling
me these are the three key points."

00:04:55.037 --> 00:04:59.618
And so what happens is you're working
from forward from what you want to do.

00:04:59.657 --> 00:05:04.487
"I wanna get my three ideas across, my
three key selling points across." And what

00:05:04.487 --> 00:05:08.887
you have to do is you have to understand
that it's not about you, it's about them.

00:05:09.238 --> 00:05:13.167
And if your audience wants to be
entertained, which is basically every

00:05:13.187 --> 00:05:18.357
audience, I think if you entertain people,
you have a chance of informing them.

00:05:18.808 --> 00:05:22.907
But if you, all you're trying to
do is inform them and not entertain

00:05:22.917 --> 00:05:25.477
them, you're not gonna pull it off.

00:05:25.808 --> 00:05:28.677
Matt Abrahams: First and foremost,
what I hear you say is that stories are

00:05:28.678 --> 00:05:33.707
natural and lean into just the comfort
and natural way in which we tell stories.

00:05:34.257 --> 00:05:38.707
And second, thinking about your job is
to engage and entertain the audience,

00:05:38.738 --> 00:05:40.577
and through that you can inform them.

00:05:40.937 --> 00:05:45.887
And deciding the appropriate level of
information, a lot of lessons in that

00:05:45.897 --> 00:05:49.727
has to do with reminding yourself what
your purpose is, which is to engage and

00:05:49.727 --> 00:05:53.427
entertain, and make sure that you just
tell the stories as you normally would.

00:05:53.437 --> 00:05:57.287
Conversation much better
than formal presentations.

00:05:57.518 --> 00:06:04.738
Guy Kawasaki: I bet you if we had 100
CEOs or CXOs out there and we said to

00:06:04.738 --> 00:06:09.237
them, "How many of you believe that
the top priority in a presentation

00:06:09.238 --> 00:06:12.017
is to entertain?" It'd be like zero.

00:06:12.217 --> 00:06:15.267
Matt Abrahams: Well, just as a personal
story on that front, when I was coming up

00:06:15.387 --> 00:06:19.497
in the academic world learning how to be
a, a teacher, one of my mentors, recently

00:06:19.497 --> 00:06:23.357
passed away, was Phil Zimbardo, and he
pulled me aside and said, "As a professor,

00:06:23.357 --> 00:06:27.057
your job is to transmit knowledge and
information, but the way you do that is

00:06:27.058 --> 00:06:30.837
by entertaining. You have to connect,
be relevant and engaging, and then the

00:06:30.837 --> 00:06:34.327
students want to learn, and that makes
it so much easier." And I think the same

00:06:34.327 --> 00:06:36.317
is true in storytelling and business.

00:06:36.952 --> 00:06:40.822
I want to switch our gears here and talk
about a form of storytelling, which is

00:06:40.852 --> 00:06:44.732
pitching, and I know you spend a lot
of time coaching people on pitching.

00:06:45.112 --> 00:06:49.892
What is the advice you find yourself
giving over and over again about

00:06:49.892 --> 00:06:51.402
what makes for a good pitch?

00:06:51.822 --> 00:06:56.572
Guy Kawasaki: The problem with most
pitches, it, it starts off with the

00:06:56.572 --> 00:07:01.781
fundamental idea that the purpose
of a pitch is to get a check.

00:07:02.661 --> 00:07:07.521
And so people have this fantasy that
I am gonna just use shock and awe.

00:07:07.561 --> 00:07:09.782
This is gonna be Desert Storm three.

00:07:09.841 --> 00:07:12.672
They're gonna just be so shocked
and awed, they're gonna ask me

00:07:12.672 --> 00:07:14.761
for wire transfer instructions.

00:07:15.381 --> 00:07:19.131
And right there, you're wrong,
and that screws up the rest of

00:07:19.161 --> 00:07:24.071
your pitch because the purpose of
a pitch is not to get the money.

00:07:24.541 --> 00:07:30.811
The purpose of a pitch is to stay
in the game and not get eliminated.

00:07:31.591 --> 00:07:36.531
So you, as long as you're not
a no, you still can be a yes.

00:07:36.751 --> 00:07:40.862
A pitch is a path to the next
step, which is due diligence.

00:07:41.061 --> 00:07:44.482
So just don't get eliminated.

00:07:44.491 --> 00:07:45.842
That's problem number one.

00:07:46.221 --> 00:07:50.871
Problem number two is that I think in
every entrepreneur's life, they have

00:07:50.872 --> 00:07:55.861
gone to some panel or watched some
YouTube video where there's a panel of

00:07:56.162 --> 00:08:02.881
venture capitalists and some moderator
who says, "So what do you look for in

00:08:02.881 --> 00:08:07.881
a deal?" And every venture capitalist
says, "I look for a world-class

00:08:07.891 --> 00:08:14.401
team with a world-class product in a
world-class market." And then the panel

00:08:14.401 --> 00:08:19.001
hosts, they keep going and say, "Yeah,
I'm looking for a really great team."

00:08:19.832 --> 00:08:23.902
And we stand by our team, we believes
in our team, we stick with our team.

00:08:24.392 --> 00:08:28.332
And so everybody hears this and they
think, "Oh my God. So I gotta convince

00:08:28.332 --> 00:08:29.922
them that I have a world-class team."

00:08:29.922 --> 00:08:34.851
So the CEO stands up in this pitch and
spends 15 minutes telling his or her

00:08:34.852 --> 00:08:38.881
life history that, "My great-grandfather
came over in the Mayflower.

00:08:38.881 --> 00:08:40.432
He landed in Connecticut.

00:08:40.441 --> 00:08:46.122
He created this hardware store which
became Ace Hardware, and he made a, a

00:08:46.201 --> 00:08:50.861
ton of money, so he endowed a chair at
Dartmouth, and I got into Dartmouth.

00:08:50.861 --> 00:08:54.511
And from Dartmouth I had a summer
intern at Goldman Sachs, and the next

00:08:54.511 --> 00:08:56.441
year I had an internship at McKinsey.

00:08:56.721 --> 00:09:00.392
I came out west, I worked for
Google, then I worked for Microsoft.

00:09:00.392 --> 00:09:04.701
I took my dot net class." And
like 15 minutes later, like,

00:09:04.851 --> 00:09:07.641
"What the hell do you do?

00:09:07.781 --> 00:09:11.061
Is it hardware, software, or
whatever?" So what I tell people

00:09:11.061 --> 00:09:12.411
in a pitch is you gotta think.

00:09:12.432 --> 00:09:13.911
There's two kinds of airplanes.

00:09:13.912 --> 00:09:19.501
One airplane is a 787 and the other
kind of airplane is a fighter jet.

00:09:19.802 --> 00:09:25.121
So if you're at SFO and you're in a
787, you have two miles of runway.

00:09:25.121 --> 00:09:29.442
You can just go ba, ba, ba, ba, ba,
ba. And 1.9 miles later you're up in

00:09:29.442 --> 00:09:31.651
the air and the miracle has occurred.

00:09:32.051 --> 00:09:34.702
Guess what kind of pilot
you need to be in a pitch?

00:09:34.702 --> 00:09:37.061
You need to be Tom Cruise, right?

00:09:37.531 --> 00:09:41.592
So in the first 30 seconds you
say, "My name is Guy Kawasaki.

00:09:41.592 --> 00:09:42.582
I'm chief evangelist of Canva.

00:09:42.582 --> 00:09:46.391
Canva's a, in the business
of democratizing design.

00:09:46.392 --> 00:09:50.201
We're an online design service,
so you can create graphics faster

00:09:50.491 --> 00:09:56.151
than you can boot Photoshop."
That's the Tom Cruise explanation.

00:09:56.822 --> 00:09:57.241
Matt Abrahams: Two things.

00:09:57.252 --> 00:09:58.191
One, have the right goal.

00:09:58.201 --> 00:10:00.231
The right goal is to just
get to the next step.

00:10:00.381 --> 00:10:01.662
It's not to get to the check.

00:10:01.711 --> 00:10:02.591
It's not to get the prize.

00:10:02.591 --> 00:10:03.711
It's just get to the next step.

00:10:03.811 --> 00:10:05.501
And then second, get there quickly.

00:10:05.711 --> 00:10:09.611
It's not about building up all the
credibility and explaining everything.

00:10:09.621 --> 00:10:12.921
It's really about what's the value
you bring, and get it out quickly.

00:10:13.131 --> 00:10:15.282
I think that's great advice,
not just for pitching, but

00:10:15.282 --> 00:10:16.831
for communication in general.

00:10:16.871 --> 00:10:19.661
A lot of people take a long time.

00:10:19.721 --> 00:10:22.201
There's a lot of build-up, and
I think that's really important.

00:10:22.561 --> 00:10:25.791
I also think, and I, I believe you
believe this too, that a lot of pitching

00:10:25.791 --> 00:10:29.041
is listening to understand what is
needed and what's important to people.

00:10:29.081 --> 00:10:31.312
It's not just about coming
in and saying all of this.

00:10:31.592 --> 00:10:34.481
The other thing I recommend I'd
like to get your opinion on is a

00:10:34.482 --> 00:10:37.391
lot of people create one pitch, and
they just deliver that one pitch

00:10:37.391 --> 00:10:39.321
across all different audiences.

00:10:39.331 --> 00:10:40.322
You have to tailor it.

00:10:40.732 --> 00:10:43.661
Guy Kawasaki: After you give the
pitch about 20 or 30 times, every

00:10:43.661 --> 00:10:46.661
time you're gonna hear one different
thing, and you go back to your

00:10:46.671 --> 00:10:50.101
office and then you make that fix.

00:10:50.668 --> 00:10:55.698
And after you do this 20 or 30 times,
you take back your presentation

00:10:55.958 --> 00:10:57.818
and you start from scratch.

00:10:57.868 --> 00:11:02.218
And you let the, the 20 things that you've
heard and you're trying to add, somebody

00:11:02.228 --> 00:11:06.318
said, "I wanna know about the patent
structure," so you added a patent page.

00:11:06.318 --> 00:11:10.767
And somebody said, "I wanna know about
the legal repercussions and trademark

00:11:10.777 --> 00:11:13.117
implications," so you put that page in.

00:11:13.118 --> 00:11:17.668
And then somebody said, "How are you
on DEI?" So you put a DEI page in it.

00:11:18.017 --> 00:11:21.458
And pretty soon you've covered
every objection, and now

00:11:21.458 --> 00:11:23.127
you're not Tom Cruise anymore.

00:11:23.127 --> 00:11:27.807
Now you are flying a Pan Am 747 cargo jet.

00:11:28.138 --> 00:11:31.277
Matt Abrahams: I think that's really an
important point for people to think about.

00:11:31.347 --> 00:11:34.827
If you continually build, change, build,
change, build, change, you can end up

00:11:34.827 --> 00:11:36.617
with something that's not what you need.

00:11:36.967 --> 00:11:41.398
And sometimes it's let's just start
fresh with the input and information

00:11:41.398 --> 00:11:43.317
that we had learned, and that helps.

00:11:43.357 --> 00:11:48.187
Guy Kawasaki: I think if you think it's
hard to get a yes in a pitch, I would

00:11:48.187 --> 00:11:51.538
say it may be even harder to get a no.

00:11:51.577 --> 00:11:55.507
Because the positive way of saying
it, it takes someone who's very

00:11:55.608 --> 00:12:03.207
frank and someone who is willing to
confront you, and not everybody is.

00:12:03.377 --> 00:12:07.787
And so when people are asked, "Are there
any improvements or something?" No one

00:12:08.027 --> 00:12:10.327
except me is gonna say, "You just suck.

00:12:10.407 --> 00:12:14.647
Just get out of my sight." They're
gonna say, "I found your story about

00:12:14.837 --> 00:12:20.177
your patent strategy a little missing."
'Cause they wanna have something to say,

00:12:20.187 --> 00:12:23.197
something intelligent as an objection.

00:12:23.768 --> 00:12:26.598
And then you're going to hear that,
they say, "Oh, man, if I only had that

00:12:26.668 --> 00:12:30.978
patent thing in a slide, I would've
gotten this deal." So you go and add

00:12:30.978 --> 00:12:33.558
the patent thing, and then you're
going to have 20 more objections.

00:12:33.558 --> 00:12:34.807
You're going to have 20 more slides.

00:12:35.107 --> 00:12:37.737
Now you have a 30-slide deck.

00:12:37.998 --> 00:12:40.887
Matt Abrahams: So what we really need
is to get feedback that's direct.

00:12:40.957 --> 00:12:42.497
Guy Kawasaki: That's so hard.

00:12:42.647 --> 00:12:43.177
Matt Abrahams: It is.

00:12:43.207 --> 00:12:45.958
But if we can find trusted others
or those who can give it to

00:12:45.958 --> 00:12:47.087
us, it can make a difference.

00:12:47.308 --> 00:12:50.237
I want to shift gears to
even be more specific.

00:12:50.258 --> 00:12:55.378
I know you have very strong beliefs on
slides and how slides should be designed.

00:12:55.437 --> 00:12:58.827
You've actually become very
famous for your 10, 20, 30 rule.

00:12:58.997 --> 00:13:02.388
I'd love for you to share a little bit
about that specific rule, but in terms

00:13:02.388 --> 00:13:06.948
of when you think about slides or things
that we add to support our communication,

00:13:07.048 --> 00:13:09.908
how should we be thinking about that
to be effective and not distracting?

00:13:10.517 --> 00:13:13.498
Guy Kawasaki: Being a big David
Letterman fan, I figured out that

00:13:14.078 --> 00:13:15.887
10 is about the magic number.

00:13:15.918 --> 00:13:20.018
And I would make the case that
if you think you need more than

00:13:20.047 --> 00:13:24.648
10 slides to convince someone you
have a viable business, that means

00:13:24.657 --> 00:13:26.708
you don't have a viable business.

00:13:26.747 --> 00:13:30.397
Ideally, you could convince
people in one or two slides.

00:13:30.887 --> 00:13:36.128
I think the ideal pitch is you have 10
slides ready to roll, but you get to the

00:13:36.137 --> 00:13:41.107
second or third slide and you say, "Would
you like a quick demo?" And you start

00:13:41.107 --> 00:13:45.458
a demo, and the next 50 minutes you're
talking about the demo and you never get

00:13:45.458 --> 00:13:51.858
to slide 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 because
people are so entranced by your demo.

00:13:52.118 --> 00:13:54.037
That's a very good sign.

00:13:54.717 --> 00:13:57.477
So that's kind of where
I'm coming from there.

00:13:57.478 --> 00:14:01.767
So anyway, the 10, 20, 30
rule is maximum 10 slides.

00:14:02.097 --> 00:14:04.718
You should be able to give
those 10 slides in 20 minutes.

00:14:04.718 --> 00:14:09.817
I mean, there have been like Nobel
Prize winners give 18-minute TED Talks.

00:14:09.887 --> 00:14:14.308
I'm giving you two more minutes than them
because you're not a Nobel Prize winner.

00:14:14.308 --> 00:14:17.657
But in 20 minutes, you should
be able to explain anything.

00:14:17.747 --> 00:14:23.037
And then the 30 points is because
I think people use much too small

00:14:23.037 --> 00:14:26.527
a font and they put complete
sentences and whole paragraphs.

00:14:26.527 --> 00:14:30.258
And when you put a sentence or a
paragraph, it's because you don't

00:14:30.258 --> 00:14:32.207
know your material well enough.

00:14:32.407 --> 00:14:35.637
If you need that much text,
you don't really know your

00:14:35.637 --> 00:14:37.417
material, which is your problem.

00:14:37.978 --> 00:14:42.598
So Nancy Duarte, one of my heroes
from Duarte Design, she has

00:14:42.598 --> 00:14:44.917
something called the glance test.

00:14:45.816 --> 00:14:51.406
And the way the glance test works is
you put up your slide, people glance at

00:14:51.436 --> 00:14:53.946
the slide, and then they look at you.

00:14:54.316 --> 00:14:59.535
And if you put up a slide and they're
like, "The strategic focus of my company

00:14:59.546 --> 00:15:05.696
is to enable shareholders to receive
a reasonable return on equity while

00:15:05.696 --> 00:15:10.646
enabling employees to self-actualize
their goals by providing a patent-pending,

00:15:10.646 --> 00:15:15.436
curve-jumping, paradigm-shifting
solution to the problems at hand while

00:15:15.436 --> 00:15:19.726
killing as few whales as possible."
And now I'm back to the speaker.

00:15:19.986 --> 00:15:24.255
Steve Jobs' font size was like 190 points.

00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:28.719
You and I, we're not Steve Jobs,
so that's why I'm saying 30.

00:15:29.319 --> 00:15:30.380
Matt Abrahams: Ah, interesting.

00:15:30.390 --> 00:15:31.689
Yeah, it's almost a heuristic.

00:15:31.829 --> 00:15:35.520
Yeah, the number of words on a slide
implies how, how well-prepared they are.

00:15:35.770 --> 00:15:37.050
So 10, 20, 30.

00:15:37.180 --> 00:15:41.060
10 slides, 20 minutes, 30 size font.

00:15:41.109 --> 00:15:44.079
I often say the mantra should be
what's the least amount of information

00:15:44.079 --> 00:15:45.740
I can put on a slide to add value?

00:15:45.839 --> 00:15:48.209
Guy Kawasaki: Again, it comes
back to the fundamental question.

00:15:48.319 --> 00:15:51.740
People who put a lot of text on a slide
think it's because they're gonna use

00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:54.549
shock and awe to get wiring instructions.

00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:57.149
Again, that's a false assumption.

00:15:57.589 --> 00:16:01.540
Matt Abrahams: So words versus images,
do you find images, graphs, charts

00:16:01.649 --> 00:16:05.339
can be as valuable, more valuable
than just having words, bullet points?

00:16:05.339 --> 00:16:06.139
What are your thoughts on that?

00:16:06.430 --> 00:16:08.429
Guy Kawasaki: I believe I agree with that.

00:16:08.539 --> 00:16:14.380
However, I would say that the
danger here is that, like everything

00:16:14.390 --> 00:16:16.670
else in pitching, less is more.

00:16:17.169 --> 00:16:21.139
And some people think if I put four
images up, it's better than three.

00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:24.150
Three is better than two,
and two is better than one.

00:16:24.629 --> 00:16:29.890
But you will flunk the glance test
because if there's four images like

00:16:29.899 --> 00:16:34.250
dolphin, there's a picture of a seagull,
there's a picture of Steve Jobs,

00:16:34.250 --> 00:16:36.709
and there's a picture of the sunset.

00:16:37.079 --> 00:16:38.559
Oh, what were you saying again?

00:16:39.119 --> 00:16:40.109
Matt Abrahams: I'm gonna switch gears.

00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:41.349
You also do what I do.

00:16:41.359 --> 00:16:42.429
You host a podcast.

00:16:42.439 --> 00:16:43.399
It's a great podcast.

00:16:43.410 --> 00:16:44.699
You've had wonderful guests.

00:16:44.929 --> 00:16:47.750
What are one or two things that
you have taken away over all those

00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:51.019
interviews that you've done in terms
of a learning that you've had or some

00:16:51.020 --> 00:16:52.749
insight that you've gained as a result?

00:16:53.020 --> 00:16:56.119
Guy Kawasaki: I think one of the
most, if not the most insight I've

00:16:56.119 --> 00:17:01.499
gained from my podcast is from someone
who has an office about a mile from

00:17:01.499 --> 00:17:04.009
here, and her name is Carol Dweck.

00:17:04.520 --> 00:17:09.759
So Carol Dweck wrote the book Mindset,
and it's all about the growth mindset.

00:17:09.829 --> 00:17:13.080
You can have a growth mindset and
believe you can learn new skills

00:17:13.080 --> 00:17:16.979
and do new things, or you can have a
fixed mindset and believe you can't.

00:17:17.459 --> 00:17:20.829
And that was a fundamental book
in my life that, you know, yeah,

00:17:20.929 --> 00:17:25.479
I wanna be on the right side of
that dichotomy, and everybody who's

00:17:25.489 --> 00:17:27.670
remarkable has a growth mindset.

00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:31.209
There's nobody with a fixed
mindset who's been remarkable.

00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.710
Matt Abrahams: Carol's work is
really important because a, a lot

00:17:34.710 --> 00:17:37.689
of people get locked into that fixed
mindset and they limit themselves.

00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.509
Guy Kawasaki: Carol Dweck's work was
great as it is, and then Mary Murphy

00:17:41.509 --> 00:17:46.859
just put the icing on the cake because
Mary Murphy's insight is, yes, a growth

00:17:46.889 --> 00:17:49.620
mindset is primarily in your head.

00:17:49.820 --> 00:17:53.489
But if you have a growth mindset
in your head, but you're in an

00:17:53.499 --> 00:17:57.572
organization that has a fixed
mindset, it ain't going to work.

00:17:57.581 --> 00:18:01.572
So you need to have a growth
mindset in a growth mindset

00:18:01.581 --> 00:18:04.252
organization for it to be optimal.

00:18:04.372 --> 00:18:07.752
I think even Carol would say
that was a brilliant insight

00:18:07.752 --> 00:18:09.621
that added to her theories.

00:18:09.931 --> 00:18:12.662
Matt Abrahams: Before we end, I like
to ask all my guests three questions.

00:18:12.662 --> 00:18:15.522
One I make up just for you,
and one is similar across all.

00:18:15.522 --> 00:18:16.152
You ready for that?

00:18:16.161 --> 00:18:16.922
Guy Kawasaki: Fire away.

00:18:17.112 --> 00:18:19.022
Matt Abrahams: I know you
have a passion for surfing.

00:18:19.321 --> 00:18:25.612
I'm curious, how do you use that passion
to help you be better at what you do?

00:18:25.641 --> 00:18:29.131
I think all of us should have some kind
of physical activity that we use or

00:18:29.131 --> 00:18:30.932
have that helps us focus and channel.

00:18:30.932 --> 00:18:33.401
I'm curious, why surfing
and what does it do for you?

00:18:33.581 --> 00:18:36.821
Guy Kawasaki: Surfing is
not a means to an end.

00:18:36.962 --> 00:18:38.631
It is the end in itself.

00:18:39.438 --> 00:18:42.528
So if you said to somebody, "Why
do you do CrossFit?" They will

00:18:42.528 --> 00:18:44.268
say, "I wanna be in fitness.

00:18:44.298 --> 00:18:45.738
I wanna lose weight," or whatever.

00:18:45.738 --> 00:18:47.038
Um, why do I surf?

00:18:47.058 --> 00:18:50.428
Because I simply love surfing.

00:18:50.728 --> 00:18:52.278
It's not a means to an end.

00:18:52.287 --> 00:18:53.558
It's the end itself.

00:18:53.568 --> 00:18:54.668
So that's number one.

00:18:55.398 --> 00:19:00.388
And what I love about surfing, and I
started at 60, which is 55 years too late.

00:19:00.388 --> 00:19:01.617
I started at 60.

00:19:01.977 --> 00:19:06.938
Surfing is the most difficult
thing I have ever tried to learn

00:19:06.938 --> 00:19:09.197
because there are so many variables.

00:19:09.198 --> 00:19:13.528
There's the water, the speed of the
wave, the direction of the wave, the

00:19:13.528 --> 00:19:19.147
shape of the wave, the other people in
the water, the reef, the kelp, the wind,

00:19:19.307 --> 00:19:25.757
the tide, and it is both anaerobic and
aerobic, and it requires great balance.

00:19:25.798 --> 00:19:30.678
And you're out in the ocean at
dawn, and it is like surfing is

00:19:30.678 --> 00:19:32.927
the most fun you can have legally.

00:19:33.118 --> 00:19:35.437
Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that it's
something you're passionate about, and I

00:19:35.438 --> 00:19:37.187
love that you took it on later in life.

00:19:37.668 --> 00:19:39.438
Let me ask you question number two.

00:19:39.848 --> 00:19:42.608
Who is a communicator
that you admire, and why?

00:19:42.927 --> 00:19:45.517
Guy Kawasaki: There's nobody you
could admire more than Steve Jobs.

00:19:45.707 --> 00:19:49.638
I saw him speak several times or
many times actually, and he had

00:19:49.638 --> 00:19:52.038
such a way of telling a story.

00:19:52.518 --> 00:19:54.578
Talk about passing the glance test.

00:19:54.647 --> 00:19:57.667
You could look at his slide for
half a second and come back to him.

00:19:57.768 --> 00:19:59.148
He could really do a demo.

00:19:59.148 --> 00:20:04.087
He had a sense of timing and pace and, you
know, he could sense when the audience,

00:20:04.088 --> 00:20:05.857
you know, wanted to hear this or that.

00:20:05.997 --> 00:20:07.657
He was truly magical.

00:20:07.847 --> 00:20:11.887
I think it's kind of like the story that
if you hear that Michael Jordan or Kobe

00:20:11.887 --> 00:20:17.178
Bryant always took more free throws than
anybody else on the team, you would say

00:20:17.217 --> 00:20:20.207
Kobe and Michael are naturally endowed.

00:20:20.217 --> 00:20:22.887
Why did they have to
take more practice shots?

00:20:23.048 --> 00:20:24.377
I don't know which comes first.

00:20:24.397 --> 00:20:28.337
If you're naturally endowed, you
practice more, or you practice more so

00:20:28.337 --> 00:20:29.977
people think you're naturally endowed.

00:20:30.027 --> 00:20:34.488
But addition to the growth mindset
is the work of Angela Duckworth,

00:20:34.607 --> 00:20:36.397
which is the grit mindset.

00:20:37.037 --> 00:20:40.887
And I would say that the flip side of
the growth mindset is the grit mindset

00:20:40.897 --> 00:20:44.127
because if you're gonna grow, you're
gonna face failure, so you need to

00:20:44.127 --> 00:20:46.747
persevere in failure, which is grit.

00:20:47.567 --> 00:20:48.867
Matt Abrahams: Final
question for you, Guy.

00:20:49.387 --> 00:20:54.668
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:20:55.188 --> 00:21:00.817
Guy Kawasaki: I will tell you that the
most important thing is, duh, you have

00:21:00.817 --> 00:21:07.167
to have something to say because not
everybody has something to say when they

00:21:07.167 --> 00:21:09.618
try to create a communication strategy.

00:21:10.117 --> 00:21:11.887
So you need to have something to say.

00:21:12.128 --> 00:21:15.357
And, you know, at an extreme example,
I talk to a lot of people and they

00:21:15.357 --> 00:21:18.417
say, "I wanna write a book." And I
say, "Why do you wanna write a book?"

00:21:18.427 --> 00:21:22.757
He say, "Well, I wanna position myself
as a thought leader and a visionary,

00:21:22.757 --> 00:21:24.568
and I wanna build credibility.

00:21:24.568 --> 00:21:26.057
I wanna increase consulting.

00:21:26.057 --> 00:21:27.337
I wanna increase speaking.

00:21:27.337 --> 00:21:30.717
That's why I wanna write a book."
You write your book when you have

00:21:30.717 --> 00:21:35.337
something to say, not because
it's gonna help position you.

00:21:35.577 --> 00:21:38.176
So I, I think that's the number one thing.

00:21:38.246 --> 00:21:41.226
That's 95% of the battle.

00:21:41.226 --> 00:21:43.206
You have something to say.

00:21:43.576 --> 00:21:46.235
Matt Abrahams: And I heard you say
earlier that making sure that it's

00:21:46.316 --> 00:21:49.546
entertaining and engaging and that
it's relevant to the audience.

00:21:49.546 --> 00:21:51.506
When we were talking about
pitching, you talked about that.

00:21:51.546 --> 00:21:54.856
And I think, but first and foremost, you
have to have something important to say.

00:21:55.335 --> 00:21:56.446
And certainly, Guy, you did.

00:21:56.456 --> 00:21:59.705
You shared with us many concepts
that I think are really important.

00:22:00.026 --> 00:22:01.526
Be present for your audience.

00:22:01.815 --> 00:22:04.126
Tell the story as naturally as you can.

00:22:04.385 --> 00:22:07.955
Make sure that when you use slides,
that there's a purpose to those slides

00:22:07.955 --> 00:22:09.565
and you're not just throwing a lot in.

00:22:09.906 --> 00:22:14.885
And an important point also is be willing
to start fresh, to start new, And that's

00:22:14.885 --> 00:22:16.765
a really important lesson I need to take.

00:22:17.055 --> 00:22:17.875
Thank you for your time.

00:22:17.925 --> 00:22:19.055
Guy Kawasaki: My pleasure.

00:22:20.425 --> 00:22:21.235
Matt Abrahams: Well, there you have it.

00:22:21.625 --> 00:22:23.455
Pitch perfect every time.

00:22:23.815 --> 00:22:27.395
Thank you for joining us for
this extended Rethinks episode.