301. Trust at First Sight: Create More Meaningful Connections

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: The most
effective communication is the

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communication that removes friction.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I look forward to chatting
with Vanessa Van Edwards.

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Vanessa is the lead investigator
at Science of People.

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She specializes in helping professionals
master their people skills, increase

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likability, and confidently navigate
both digital and in-person interactions.

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Vanessa has written two best-selling
books, Captivate: The Science

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of Succeeding with People, and
Cues: Master the Secret Language

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of Charismatic Communication.

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I got to know Vanessa when she
joined me in teaching parts

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of my Strategic Communication
Master Class Certificates course.

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Well, welcome, Vanessa.

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I have been looking forward to this
conversation for quite a while.

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Thanks for being here.

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Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank
you so much for having me.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, let's dive in.

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Matt Abrahams: So you focus on
communication among many other things.

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Why is strategic
communication so important?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: I think
of communication as the number

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one way to remove friction.

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You know, I'm, I'm a
recovering awkward person.

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And so I used to have a lot of friction
in my conversations, in my relationships,

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where things just felt hard.

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I think when we look at strategic
communication, communication that's

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built to connect, that's built to
break down barriers, you are removing

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friction from every area of your
life, your productivity, your ability

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to connect, your ability to feel
happy, your ability to move forward.

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And so I think that when people
think about getting things done

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or being successful, they have
to add strategic communication to

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remove friction from their goals.

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Matt Abrahams: I love this
idea of strategic communication

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as removing friction.

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It makes things easier.

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Communication is all about connection,
and if we can make that smooth

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and easy, life just gets better.

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I, I appreciate you sharing that.

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Uh, you provide a lot of great advice
and guidance for non-verbal presence.

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I really like the work that you do.

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It's extremely valuable.

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One area you focus on that I have
not seen others focus on that I'd

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love for you to share a little
bit with us about is gesturing.

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Can you share your thoughts on this, best
practices, and why this is even important?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: I think that
gestures are the most overlooked aspect

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of our presence, and the reason for
this is because the brain is very

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attuned to gesture unconsciously.

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We don't realize we're
looking at gesture so much.

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So for example, as I'm speaking, if I
were to say to you, "I have, um, three

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big ideas," but hold up the number five,

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Matt Abrahams: It's confusing

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Vanessa Van Edwards: My mouth really,
really wanted to say five really

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bad because I was holding up five.

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So one, there's a loop for you as the
speaker that if your gestures are aligning

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with your words, you feel coherent, you
feel confident, you feel like, okay,

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like I'm capable, I know my stuff.

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So that alignment's important
for you as a speaker.

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And Dr. Susan Goldin-Meadow has
found that gesture makes you more

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fluent, it makes you more charismatic.

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But also for the listener,
your brain is looking for, how

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do I deeply understand you?

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Yes, I can listen to your
words, I can hear tone, but also

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I'm looking for visual cues.

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So if I say that I have a really big
idea and I hold my fingers really

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small, the other person's brain goes,
"What?" And actually, you're more likely

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to believe my gesture over my words.

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And so I think that this is the secret
way into a beautiful presence, which

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is it helps you as a speaker feel
like you know your stuff, and it helps

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the listener remember your stuff.

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And also, between you and me, I
have a secret third goal that I

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don't always share, which is if you
don't know your stuff well enough,

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you won't be able to gesture.

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So thinking about gesture is a
good self-check of, do I know

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my content so well that I could
speak to you on two tracks?

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That I can walk on stage, hop into
a boardroom, lead a meeting, and

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speak with my words, but also I could
underline, outline, or highlight

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for people along with my hands.

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Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that
self-check idea because a lot of people

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will ask me, "How do I know when I'm
ready? Have I practiced enough?" And I

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think a great way to check that is, are
gestures natural, and are you doing them?

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And if you're not, it's a cue that perhaps
you need to work a little bit more.

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And I love anything that connects,
you know, to science and biology.

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One of the recommendations I always
make with gesturing is that we

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want to do it beyond our shoulders.

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Nervous people gesture in front of
their chest, and just going slightly

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beyond your shoulders, again, shows that
openness, and I think that's important.

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Vanessa Van Edwards: I love
gesturing beyond the shoulder.

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I think of it as the strike zone
for any baseball players, right?

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Like, you like the strike zone.

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Also, be very careful to not penguin.

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I call it penguining, which is
when you press your arms tightly

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to your side and you just have
your arms angling, pivoting out.

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Matt Abrahams: Right.

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Vanessa Van Edwards: So it's,
it's not just a, a gesturing out.

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It's also we love the space
between the torso and the arm.

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Very confident people are
actually, they have a lot of space.

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You can see their torso.

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So not only gesturing out,
but also creating a little bit

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of space there is also good.

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No penguining.

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Matt Abrahams: I love the idea of
penguining, where the elbows are glued

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to the body, and we don't wanna do that.

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In fact, when I coach people, I'll
say, "Imagine a ping pong ball or an

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egg in your armpit," and that just
extends that elbow a little bit away.

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Uh, I wanna share some advice that a,
a student of mine actually taught me.

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What he'll do to really focus on his
gestures is he'll audio record himself

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doing his presentation or his pitch,
and then he'll listen to it and not

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speak, but as he's listening, he'll go
through his gestures, not to script or

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memorize them, but to get that part of
his brain that does the gesturing working.

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And I thought that that was an
excellent way of practicing.

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I do that now myself and
find it really valuable.

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Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it.

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I, I, I'm gonna try this.

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Matt Abrahams: Vanessa, can you tell me
what you mean by over and under-signaling

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in our non-verbal communication?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: So when you're
very nervous, you either go into, um,

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freeze, which means you under-signal.

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You shut down the face.

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So anyone, all, any of my students who
are, um, very anxious in a presentation,

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they under-signal, so they lose
all expressiveness in their face.

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They lose all movement and
expressiveness in their body.

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Their gestures, either they clasp their
hands tightly or they're in their pockets

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or tightly to their sides, and they focus
fully on just verbal, verbal, verbal.

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And they literally will try
to deliver only verbal, and

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they lose all expressiveness.

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That under-signaling, I think,
is a natural response of, "I'm

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scared, so don't notice me."

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If you're an under-signaler, we have
to add in movement that feels good

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to them, whether that's even as small
as an eyebrow raise, uh, pivoting on

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stage, how you hold the microphone.

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We have to add in expressiveness.

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The other side, and this is more
me, expressers, we over-express.

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So I over-nod, I bobble
head when I'm very nervous.

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Yeah.

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Um, I, uh, pace the stage, right?

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Which is very distracting
for your audience.

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I will over-gesture or fidget
gesture, and so I need to lessen my

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expression, or I need to, apologies.

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I need to make it more purposeful.

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Matt Abrahams: We'll be right
back to finish our conversation.

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And now, back to our conversation.

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I really like this idea of under and
over-signaling and recording yourself and

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watching and identifying, where am I over?

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Where am I under?

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Am I consistently one way or the other?

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Is a great way to diagnose.

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Again, the goal is not to script gestures.

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The goal is just to become aware
so that we can be more purposeful,

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and I really appreciate that.

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I know you see presence being more
than what we do with our bodies.

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You are all about impact
and word choice as well.

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What are a few common danger words
we use in everyday emails or pitches

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that can adversely affect our
credibility and how people see us?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: There are two
kind of danger zone buckets for verbal.

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The first is sterile, and the
second is accidentally negative.

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And I think that these are
crippling our communication.

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They add a lot of friction
without realizing it.

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So first, let's talk about sterile.

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So much of our communication has
moved from in-person to solely verbal,

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only over email, Slack, text, chat.

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And so more of our critical ideas
and our first impressions and our

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presence is communicating only
verbally, which means we are becoming

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more sterile with our communication
because we are doing it so much.

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So very sterile communication is
autopilot words, the subject follow-up.

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Words like, uh, get back to
you, just thinking about it,

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checking in, wanna circle back.

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Phrases and words that we hear
all the time that our brain

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doesn't even register as emotion.

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Like it's, it's just, um,
default communication.

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The problem is when we do this over
email or chat over and over again, the

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brain goes on autopilot, too, right?

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Our, our, our reaction is just,
oh, this email's gonna be like

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every other email I've ever gotten.

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And so the first thing that I wanna fight
with danger zone is breaking the sterile,

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is adding in words that do have a little
bit of emotion, a little bit of behavior.

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So for example, if you have a meeting
coming up, what is the feeling that

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you want someone to feel when they
see your name pop up in their inbox?

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How do you want them to behave that
sets them up for success and you up

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for success in the actual meeting?

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So a calendar invite is
a great example of this.

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I always have my students do a calendar
invite audit, where I have them look

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at their calendar, they open up the
calendar, and I have them write down

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all the, um, emotion words they see.

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So meeting one-on-one,
review, doesn't count.

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Video call, doesn't count.

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And usually there are none, right?

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But every single time you open your
calendar, you're priming yourself with

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a verbal cue, and you're also, that's
often the meeting's first impression that

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your client is getting or your student
is getting or your colleague's getting.

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So if you want it to be a collaborative
session, call it a collaborative meeting.

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If you want it to be a strategy
session, call it a strategy session.

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If you want it to be about 2026
goals, call it 2026 goal review.

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We can add in very, very small
words that wake our brains up

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and begin to cue for behavior.

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That fights that sterile.

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The second is accidentally
negative, and this happens verbally.

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Usually in the first minute of
interaction, which is incredibly

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important for your first
impression, we throw away our words.

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We start by saying, "Oh my
gosh, it's been so busy.

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What a crazy schedule.

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So sorry I'm late.

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What terrible traffic.

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This horrible weather." When we do
that, you're literally cueing the

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other person's brain to go negative.

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Matt Abrahams: This notion of sterile
language and negative language is

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absolutely something we need to, to
look at and to be concerned with.

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How we prime people impacts
how they see us, and doing an

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audit of our language can help.

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I am one hundred percent behind
you on thinking about meeting

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invites and calendar invites.

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Most people don't like going to
meetings, so calling something a meeting

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immediately triggers a negative aspect.

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So I like your idea of how can we bring
action just to the titles of our meetings.

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And what we say when we
initiate interaction can set

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ourselves up for success.

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So thank you for sharing those bits of
advice, and I encourage everybody to

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do an audit of how you start things.

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Beyond our bodies and words, you highlight
imagery cues, and I really like this idea.

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What are the colors we wear?

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Are the props visible in our background?

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We are secretly telling people things
about our status, our trustworthiness.

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Can you give us some insight
into these imagery cues?

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Vanessa Van Edwards: I love thinking
about imagery because we don't

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realize that we are creating or
triggering people's neural maps.

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Now, this is a concept
that I fell in love with.

00:12:55.945 --> 00:12:58.746
You know, I'm, I'm a researcher, and
I fell in love with it because it's

00:12:58.746 --> 00:13:04.286
this idea that one word can light
up a kind of tree in someone's mind.

00:13:04.915 --> 00:13:09.986
So for example, if I were to, on a
dating website and have a picture of me

00:13:09.986 --> 00:13:16.075
skiing, someone seeing me skiing would
trigger a whole tree of activation.

00:13:16.075 --> 00:13:22.065
Now, for some people, they might
think fun, adventure, family, amazing.

00:13:22.585 --> 00:13:27.746
Other people would think cold,
dangerous, scary, adrenaline.

00:13:27.746 --> 00:13:29.065
Matt Abrahams: I'm in the
latter camp, by the way

00:13:29.156 --> 00:13:30.086
Vanessa Van Edwards: I don't ski.

00:13:31.836 --> 00:13:36.665
So those are two completely
different behavioral responses.

00:13:37.475 --> 00:13:41.606
I think there's opportunity here
to be purposeful with the kind

00:13:41.606 --> 00:13:43.326
of neural maps you're creating.

00:13:43.685 --> 00:13:47.656
And so we can think about in our Zoom
background, the props on our desk, what

00:13:47.656 --> 00:13:49.476
we're holding in our profile pictures.

00:13:49.756 --> 00:13:52.026
When I'm working with companies,
what's on your website?

00:13:52.305 --> 00:13:53.685
Um, what's in your commercials?

00:13:53.716 --> 00:13:55.575
What's on your social profiles?

00:13:55.835 --> 00:13:56.886
What's in your header?

00:13:57.515 --> 00:14:01.545
Those are all creating neural maps,
and here's the thing I think is

00:14:01.545 --> 00:14:05.787
maybe a little bit controversial
Sometimes you don't want to have a

00:14:05.787 --> 00:14:07.777
neural map that appeals to everyone.

00:14:08.238 --> 00:14:13.218
I think it's actually better to create
neural maps that appeal to your people.

00:14:13.657 --> 00:14:16.617
I like blueprints, formula, framework.

00:14:16.897 --> 00:14:21.568
You know, I, I love very specific, uh,
black and white teaching of soft skills.

00:14:22.117 --> 00:14:25.598
There are some people who will not like
that, and they are not our people, right?

00:14:25.598 --> 00:14:29.167
Like, they're not going to like my
science-backed approach to conversation

00:14:29.167 --> 00:14:30.198
because they're our formula.

00:14:30.228 --> 00:14:36.057
So on our website, we created allergies
for those people so that when they come

00:14:36.057 --> 00:14:39.727
to us, if you love that, you are gonna
be attracted to the imagery we use,

00:14:39.747 --> 00:14:44.478
imagery of science, imagery of chemicals,
uh, imagery of words like science

00:14:44.497 --> 00:14:46.708
and, um, certificate and blueprint.

00:14:47.247 --> 00:14:50.297
That, we do that on purpose 'cause
I don't want to appeal to everyone.

00:14:50.387 --> 00:14:54.188
And so I think for us and for
listeners to think about is who

00:14:54.188 --> 00:14:58.317
are the kind of people who are your
people that you really get along with?

00:14:58.757 --> 00:15:02.468
It removes friction if you can
call to those people faster.

00:15:03.888 --> 00:15:06.588
Matt Abrahams: We had a great
conversation with Seth Godin, who talks

00:15:06.588 --> 00:15:10.507
very similarly to find your tribe,
find the people, and target them.

00:15:11.108 --> 00:15:14.627
What you add to it that I think is
great is, is the idea of allergies.

00:15:14.688 --> 00:15:17.907
What can we build in not just to
speak to the people we wanna speak

00:15:17.907 --> 00:15:21.848
to, but what do we put out there that
signals to people that, that aren't

00:15:21.958 --> 00:15:24.267
our people that this isn't for you?

00:15:24.438 --> 00:15:27.317
And we're saving them time, and
we're saving ourselves time,

00:15:27.317 --> 00:15:28.608
so that's really interesting.

00:15:28.907 --> 00:15:34.367
But taking a step back, this idea of
curating the experience for people, not

00:15:34.367 --> 00:15:38.247
just in what you say and how you say it,
but what you show makes a difference.

00:15:38.507 --> 00:15:41.257
I'll give you an example that
I find really fascinating.

00:15:41.557 --> 00:15:44.897
There's some recent research that says
with those backgrounds people put, you,

00:15:44.897 --> 00:15:48.598
you have three choices of backgrounds
when you're virtual: a real background, as

00:15:48.598 --> 00:15:54.588
you and I have, uh, uh, an image that you
put up, or that blurry, fuzzy background.

00:15:54.627 --> 00:15:59.057
And what the research says is the blurry,
fuzzy background primes people to think

00:15:59.057 --> 00:16:02.017
that you're hiding something, that
there's something you want to keep away

00:16:02.017 --> 00:16:06.238
from them, and that's how they come to
your communication, to the interaction.

00:16:06.557 --> 00:16:12.817
So what we show people helps them
form opinions of us and filter

00:16:12.817 --> 00:16:16.168
what we say, and you highlight that
very clearly when you talk about

00:16:16.178 --> 00:16:17.938
imagery cues, and I appreciate that.

00:16:18.167 --> 00:16:20.887
Vanessa Van Edwards: And also, with
a blurry background, I think you're

00:16:20.897 --> 00:16:23.638
actually missing an opportunity, right?

00:16:23.638 --> 00:16:25.988
Like, my goal in interaction
is to make it as easy to

00:16:26.038 --> 00:16:27.638
communicate with me as possible.

00:16:28.088 --> 00:16:30.918
That should always be our goal, is
that we wanna put people at ease.

00:16:31.238 --> 00:16:35.287
If you are hiding your background,
their brain, one, it's one step even

00:16:35.288 --> 00:16:37.537
further from in person, 'cause we
don't have a blurry background in

00:16:37.538 --> 00:16:38.958
person, so it, it's even further.

00:16:38.958 --> 00:16:41.867
But also you're missing an
opportunity to give them cues that

00:16:41.868 --> 00:16:45.098
might help them know you, and that
makes it easy to communicate with.

00:16:45.578 --> 00:16:47.548
Matt Abrahams: If you enjoyed my
recent conversation with Jean and

00:16:47.548 --> 00:16:50.788
Cherie from The Tiger Sisters, I
think you'll really love their show.

00:16:51.107 --> 00:16:54.017
Jean and Cherie are known as the
Internet's Wall Street and Silicon

00:16:54.018 --> 00:16:57.648
Valley big sisters, and together
they've built Tiger Sisters into a

00:16:57.648 --> 00:17:01.039
top-ranked business podcast, reaching
number one in business and top

00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.588
three overall in Spotify in the US.

00:17:03.958 --> 00:17:07.908
They take big and sometimes complicated
ideas around money, power, and love,

00:17:08.158 --> 00:17:11.578
and turn them into clear, practical
tools you can apply right away.

00:17:11.958 --> 00:17:15.697
Two fun facts: I coached Cherie
for her TEDx talk, and I had the

00:17:15.698 --> 00:17:17.177
chance to join them on their show.

00:17:17.358 --> 00:17:21.398
And I have to say, it was a really
thoughtful and engaging conversation.

00:17:21.868 --> 00:17:25.628
They ask great questions and bring
a perspective you don't always hear.

00:17:25.958 --> 00:17:29.788
New episodes drop every Monday on their
YouTube channel and across all audio

00:17:29.788 --> 00:17:32.258
platforms at Tiger Sisters Podcast.

00:17:33.027 --> 00:17:37.378
We all grew up with the golden rule, uh,
but you advocate for something a little,

00:17:37.378 --> 00:17:39.858
a little ritzier, the, the platinum rule.

00:17:40.138 --> 00:17:42.908
What's the difference, and how
does applying it change the way

00:17:42.908 --> 00:17:46.168
we motivate and appreciate the
people we work with in our teams?

00:17:46.458 --> 00:17:48.688
Vanessa Van Edwards: I was raised
with the golden rule, treat others

00:17:48.718 --> 00:17:50.038
as you would treat yourself.

00:17:50.178 --> 00:17:51.888
And the golden rule got me in trouble.

00:17:52.638 --> 00:17:53.538
And it did.

00:17:53.538 --> 00:17:59.036
It got me in trouble because it actually
is quite self-focused I believe, I've

00:17:59.436 --> 00:18:03.236
come to learn that if you are very
self-focused interaction, especially

00:18:03.236 --> 00:18:07.466
at work and especially in, in high
stakes interactions, it is very hard

00:18:07.466 --> 00:18:11.356
to have empathy, compassion, and see
where the other person is coming from.

00:18:11.625 --> 00:18:13.976
Because you've, you're in the
filter of, well, how would

00:18:13.996 --> 00:18:15.365
I wanna be treated in this?

00:18:15.876 --> 00:18:18.676
The platinum rule is treat others
as they would wanna be treated,

00:18:18.766 --> 00:18:22.506
and it is a very different mental
shift in every social interaction.

00:18:22.996 --> 00:18:28.835
It helps you be other focused, which
is an immediate click on for empathy

00:18:28.886 --> 00:18:32.745
because you're thinking, what is
happening in their world, in their day?

00:18:33.126 --> 00:18:36.756
If I were them, what would be
worrying me or keeping me up at night?

00:18:36.816 --> 00:18:38.246
What would my goal or motivation be?

00:18:38.576 --> 00:18:40.536
And it completely changes your questions.

00:18:40.926 --> 00:18:45.216
So instead of a back and forth
of I feel, I feel, I feel, it's

00:18:45.726 --> 00:18:47.326
why, why do you feel that way?

00:18:47.366 --> 00:18:48.466
How do you feel that way?

00:18:48.526 --> 00:18:49.786
What made you feel that way?

00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:52.896
And it creates a very
different way of communicating.

00:18:52.946 --> 00:18:55.886
And so I'm trying to encourage people
to think more about the platinum rule.

00:18:55.916 --> 00:18:58.466
This is actually, I think,
the more elevated and more

00:18:58.476 --> 00:18:59.986
challenging way to communicate.

00:19:01.336 --> 00:19:04.206
Matt Abrahams: It requires that we really
appreciate our audience and understand

00:19:04.206 --> 00:19:05.936
what's important and relevant to them.

00:19:06.026 --> 00:19:09.245
And when we do that, then we can
be in service of them and, and

00:19:09.245 --> 00:19:12.416
achieve the platinum rule and
really give them what they need.

00:19:13.236 --> 00:19:14.796
Vanessa, this has been fantastic.

00:19:14.796 --> 00:19:18.106
I knew we were gonna have
a, a great conversation.

00:19:18.456 --> 00:19:21.915
As you know, uh, I end with three
questions, one I make up just

00:19:21.916 --> 00:19:25.026
for you, and then two I've been
asking everybody for a long time.

00:19:25.026 --> 00:19:25.676
Are you up for that?

00:19:25.915 --> 00:19:26.395
Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it.

00:19:26.446 --> 00:19:26.856
Yes.

00:19:27.075 --> 00:19:27.805
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:19:27.806 --> 00:19:31.116
So you study so many
interesting and exciting things.

00:19:31.176 --> 00:19:33.996
Would you be willing to give us a
little sneak peek into something

00:19:33.996 --> 00:19:35.426
that you're exploring currently?

00:19:35.976 --> 00:19:38.716
Vanessa Van Edwards: I've spent the last
eight years diving into conversation.

00:19:38.766 --> 00:19:40.855
Captivate is about first impressions.

00:19:41.175 --> 00:19:44.506
Uh, Cues is about charisma
and, uh, non-verbal.

00:19:44.905 --> 00:19:50.206
The one thing missing I felt was a deep
look at how do we elevate conversation.

00:19:50.326 --> 00:19:54.576
How do we move from casual
acquaintances to best friends?

00:19:54.766 --> 00:19:55.286
Matt Abrahams: Right.

00:19:55.476 --> 00:19:58.675
Vanessa Van Edwards: And so in
October, my next book is coming out,

00:19:58.766 --> 00:20:04.416
and it's the blueprint for meaningful
connective conversation if you want it.

00:20:05.732 --> 00:20:07.262
Taking back control.

00:20:07.331 --> 00:20:09.292
You don't need to go to level
three with your Uber driver

00:20:09.341 --> 00:20:10.812
unless you want to, right?

00:20:11.292 --> 00:20:15.331
So for introverts, for my introverts,
this book is really for, for you,

00:20:15.341 --> 00:20:17.802
for my introverts and ambiverts,
is how do we take back control in

00:20:17.802 --> 00:20:21.161
conversation and create connection
without having to fake being extroverted?

00:20:21.302 --> 00:20:25.042
The book is done, and I'm just,
like, I'm just so excited for it to

00:20:25.042 --> 00:20:27.762
be in people's hands, and so that's
gonna be, that's my next big one.

00:20:27.762 --> 00:20:28.192
I can't wait.

00:20:28.591 --> 00:20:31.222
Matt Abrahams: Question number two, I'll
be very curious for your answer for this.

00:20:31.222 --> 00:20:34.262
Who's a communicator
that you admire, and why?

00:20:34.461 --> 00:20:35.871
Vanessa Van Edwards: Mine is Lucille Ball.

00:20:37.281 --> 00:20:41.412
I think that laughter is
the lubrication of learning.

00:20:41.482 --> 00:20:46.732
I think laughter is the,
um, shortcut to connection.

00:20:47.382 --> 00:20:52.601
Um, I'm not very funny, but I do
try to be, and I think, um, her as a

00:20:52.601 --> 00:20:58.392
communicator, she was able to communicate
so much, uh, about values and family and

00:20:58.542 --> 00:21:05.272
ambition and fame, uh, through her humor,
and also was extremely entrepreneurial

00:21:05.272 --> 00:21:07.122
and created a whole new way of filming.

00:21:07.402 --> 00:21:10.532
And so I think Lucille Ball was one
of those communicators where she just

00:21:10.581 --> 00:21:12.872
was able to be herself on camera.

00:21:13.111 --> 00:21:17.022
Matt Abrahams: She was truly special,
not just on camera, but behind, in

00:21:17.022 --> 00:21:21.642
this idea that levity can really
be a useful tool for connection.

00:21:21.992 --> 00:21:26.072
And for our younger audiences who
might not recognize Lucille Ball

00:21:26.072 --> 00:21:31.112
right away, find your favorite search
engine, go search Lucille Ball and

00:21:31.161 --> 00:21:35.722
Chocolate Factory, and you can see
how somebody can communicate a lot

00:21:35.722 --> 00:21:38.152
of information with very few words.

00:21:39.242 --> 00:21:43.172
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:21:43.172 --> 00:21:45.242
successful communication recipe?

00:21:45.932 --> 00:21:49.711
Vanessa Van Edwards: The first
one is weird, but, um, dog energy.

00:21:50.692 --> 00:21:55.331
And what I mean by that is dogs, you
know, most dogs, not all, but most

00:21:55.331 --> 00:21:57.382
dogs are really excited to see you.

00:21:57.762 --> 00:21:59.831
They assume the best, right?

00:21:59.831 --> 00:22:01.562
Like, they are like, "Do
you have a treat for me?

00:22:01.562 --> 00:22:05.272
Do you have a pet for me?" I think
dog energy, like that assumption of

00:22:05.272 --> 00:22:08.901
good, that assumption of there could
be a nice treat or pet waiting for

00:22:08.902 --> 00:22:12.942
you, um, in this conversation, I think
is the first thing, that bringing

00:22:12.942 --> 00:22:16.762
that energy and that perspective as
opposed to, you know, cat energy, and

00:22:16.762 --> 00:22:20.702
I love a cat, but you know, cat energy
of like, "I'm gonna play it cool.

00:22:21.882 --> 00:22:24.821
I'm gonna wait until they like me first.

00:22:25.291 --> 00:22:30.482
I'm gonna be mysterious." That is very
challenging, uh, to make, to make,

00:22:30.522 --> 00:22:32.081
um, good and successful communication.

00:22:32.081 --> 00:22:32.822
So dog energy.

00:22:33.262 --> 00:22:35.631
Second is something I touched on
earlier, which is this idea of

00:22:36.482 --> 00:22:37.922
putting the other person at ease.

00:22:38.122 --> 00:22:43.481
I think, um, for those social overthinkers
like me, uh, we can get very in our head.

00:22:43.741 --> 00:22:46.871
The only way I think to get out of
our head is to get into their head.

00:22:47.351 --> 00:22:50.692
So the platinum rule is how
can I put this person at ease?

00:22:50.952 --> 00:22:53.341
That's, uh, an, an incredibly
important gift you can give someone

00:22:53.341 --> 00:22:54.422
and also gets out of your own head.

00:22:54.972 --> 00:22:58.112
And, uh, third is to appeal
to the caveman brain.

00:22:59.364 --> 00:23:02.584
In successful communication, uh, when
you're hiding something, when you

00:23:02.584 --> 00:23:07.294
are anxious, when you have negative
non-verbals, those are perceived

00:23:07.324 --> 00:23:10.574
as microaggressions that make
them feel more afraid and anxious.

00:23:10.984 --> 00:23:13.874
And so the easier you can be to
communicate with, the clearer your

00:23:13.874 --> 00:23:17.164
warmth, the clearer your confidence,
the clearer that you're signaling that

00:23:17.164 --> 00:23:20.064
you know what you're talking about, that
actually puts them at ease and helps

00:23:20.364 --> 00:23:22.454
relax that caveman part of their brain.

00:23:22.594 --> 00:23:24.804
I think those are the, the
best ingredients you can have

00:23:24.804 --> 00:23:25.834
for successful communication.

00:23:26.614 --> 00:23:30.904
Matt Abrahams: Bringing energy and
desire to be communicated to and to

00:23:30.904 --> 00:23:35.714
communicate with others, putting others
first and what's important for them, and

00:23:35.714 --> 00:23:37.734
showing that you're open and receptive.

00:23:38.394 --> 00:23:44.284
Wonderful recipe, and clearly, uh, one
that would lead to less friction and

00:23:44.293 --> 00:23:46.093
more enjoyment in our communication.

00:23:46.114 --> 00:23:49.274
And I have to say, Vanessa,
this was incredibly enjoyable.

00:23:49.714 --> 00:23:51.563
Lots of great tips and advice.

00:23:51.804 --> 00:23:52.944
Thank you for your time.

00:23:52.954 --> 00:23:55.874
Thank you for your collaboration,
and I appreciate and wish

00:23:55.874 --> 00:23:56.904
you luck on the new book.

00:23:57.544 --> 00:23:58.734
Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank
you so much for having me.

00:23:59.184 --> 00:24:01.384
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:24:01.384 --> 00:24:03.444
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:24:03.753 --> 00:24:06.154
To learn more about nonverbal
communication, listen to

00:24:06.154 --> 00:24:08.584
episode 137 with Dana Carney.

00:24:09.123 --> 00:24:12.423
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

00:24:12.444 --> 00:24:14.964
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:24:15.214 --> 00:24:16.904
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:24:17.044 --> 00:24:19.514
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:24:19.864 --> 00:24:22.944
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:23.164 --> 00:24:25.114
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

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Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and
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00:24:30.774 --> 00:24:34.794
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