319. Open the Portal: The Simple Science Behind Impactful Storytelling

WEBVTT

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Portals provide a powerful way for
you to begin your communication

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and engage your audience.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm excited to
speak with Troy Campbell.

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Troy is the chief scientist at the firm On
Your Feet, and a former behavioral science

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professor at the University of Oregon.

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Previously, he was a Disney Imagineer
and a researcher at Netflix Insights.

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Troy specializes in blending a scientific
mind with an artistic heart to understand

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consumer behavior, storytelling, and
the psychology of human connection.

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Well, welcome, Troy.

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We have chatted on and off for a
long time, and I am thrilled to

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actually have you in studio and
the opportunity to chat with you.

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Thanks for being here.

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Long-time listener first-time guest.

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Very excited to be here.

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All right.

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Shall we get started?

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Let's do it.

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Uh, I love so many ways you frame things.

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Uh, you describe story theory
as essentially the word because.

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How does understanding causality
improve our storytelling?

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Yeah, so, um, pretty much if you ask any
theoretician of story, about one out of

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two of them will give you a definition
that is more or less the word because.

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They'll talk about causality.

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So if you read the book
Narrative by Abbott Porter,

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he's gonna talk about causality.

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If you talk to the comics
professor, Kate Kelp-Stebbins,

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she's gonna tell you it's causality.

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If you listen to the South Park creators,
they'll talk about how in between every

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scene, what happens in one scene better
cause the next thing to happen, right?

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And causality is just this foundation
that really allows us to anchor what

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we're trying to do when we're telling
stories, which is that characters

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are changing, and there's something
that's causing them to change.

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And that cause is what's gonna make it
a story rather than a bullet point list.

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I just love the idea of thinking
about the change, and that

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change is because of something.

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So not all of us are in situations
where we have to tell grandiose stories.

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We're trying to pitch our business,
we're trying to get people

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aligned to what we're saying.

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Help us understand how we can
tell stories in our everyday jobs.

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Yeah.

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What we can do is we can say, "You're
gonna come into the workplace, and you're

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gonna share a piece of information."
Like, "Here's an action that we want

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to do," or, "Here's a data point
that's really important," and you're

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gonna explain the because behind it.

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And once you start saying because, and
you say because a couple times, it's

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gonna transform something into a story.

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The current sales of this product are down
and it's because this thing is happening.

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And a deeper reason is because
the consumer cares about this.

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And it becomes this real simplified
way to tell, in my opinion, what

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is a story, which is explaining why
something has happened, what has caused

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a character, a set of characters, they
could be your consumers, to change.

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It, it all boils down to that causality.

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And when you frame it that way,
it makes it so much easier to

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think about how do I, as somebody
telling the story, structure it?

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I first have to introduce the players,
the issue, the cause, and then explain

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the cause that comes from that.

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So you start by explaining who the
characters are and the components,

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and then the cause that's involved.

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One of the things that you and I
connected on right away is you,

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like, like I, believe very strongly
in frameworks and structure.

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And you have a great structure
that I really like, GIA.

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Goal, insight, action.

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Can you tell us a little bit about
that structure and how can we use it?

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Yeah.

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Um, so goal, insight, action is
goal, what your audience cares about.

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We wanna always start with relevance.

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That insight is the data, the expertise,
the ingenuity, the causality, the,

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the reasons that you're gonna bring.

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And action is what your
audience can do with it.

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And if you think about this,
you'll actually see it so

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many times in things, right?

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It's how Steve Jobs always communicated.

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He would come up to audiences and,
right, of all, all the people in

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the world, Steve Jobs could just be
like, "Hey, Apple, we should do this.

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We should have this think different
campaign." But instead he comes up and

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he says, "The goal we have in the 1990s
at Apple is that we need to stand out

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again, that we aren't resonating." And the
insight, and he says this with his hands,

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like that's always how he would talk.

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You, you're dressed in black.

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I'm having a moment here.

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Yeah, I know.

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I know.

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Uh, my lady said I looked a little
Steve Jobs when I came over here.

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Um, and he would be like, "My insight
is that marketing is about values. And

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in a world that's really busy, how you
stand out is focusing on values," right?

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And then he says, "So the action, what
we're gonna take, is we are gonna have the

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Think Different campaign, which is gonna
focus on our core value that we believe

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in misfits. We believe in people who
believe that they can change the world."

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And that structure is just so simple.

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It, it works, whenever you're talking
about data, don't jump to your data.

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Say, the goal we have at this
organization is to reach this consumer

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or address this fire problem right now.

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Some insight we have about the consumer,
about this moment is this, and the action

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that we can take to deal with it is this.

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And we teach organizations this
structure, and they love not only the

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structure, but they love using the
words because it creates sort of this

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collective also culture where they
can signpost to their audience 'cause

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they've both been trained to receive
and deliver in goal, insight, action.

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And it can just be a wonderful
personal habit, but also group habit.

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Goal, insight, action, I think,
is a fantastic structure.

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And what it allows you to do, the goal
is often something that's commonly

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shared or based on a value or your
mission that's already shared.

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So you're already halfway there
because you're tapping into something

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that people already believe in and
then you're further focusing it.

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And, and like any structure, I think
with a little practice and ingenuity,

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this can be a really useful tool.

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Yeah.

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And the one thing I would say is, like,
the goal may be the most important

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part of goal, insight, action, and it's
that even if people have that goal,

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it's not always active in their brain.

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And so you need to remind people
that that is what's important, right?

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Um, they might even tell you, "I know that
already," but they're, it wasn't, they

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really didn't know that in the moment,
and those motives were not activated.

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So make sure you always, before
you're communicating, if you can,

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even if it's just one sentence,
repeat the goal that they have

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that you are gonna help them with.

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A, a goal, I like to say, is a
focusing, has a focusing function.

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It helps you focus.

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It helps you frame the
discussion and highlighting that.

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And assuming people understand
it, and maybe some people say,

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"I already got the goals," still
state it, and very good advice.

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You've developed research on identity
persuasion and solution aversion.

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I had to practice saying that several
times 'cause I, I slur the words together.

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When an audience is highly resistant
to the truth due to solution

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aversion or flight from the facts,
uh, as you like to say, how does

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a, how do we as a communicator
restructure our message to avoid this?

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Yeah.

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So Solutions can be very aversive.

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And because of these solutions, we will
often deny that there's even a problem or

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that we need to engage in that solution.

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And I often like to think of solutions
aversions as coming from two areas.

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So one is our tangible things and
one are more identity based things.

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So a tangible thing could be just
like, "I don't wanna stop drinking

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caramel frappuccinos." Right?

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And when a doctor diagnosed me with
these blood sugar problems when I

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was younger, it was like I had a big
Frappuccino on my forehead and like,

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"Deal with this issue or I'm not gonna
believe any of the science you're

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telling me about my health issue."

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And one of the things that he did,
Dr. Manuel Fernandez, is the very

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first thing he did is he told, is
he's like, "Here's how your diet is

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not going to be as bad as you think
it was." So before all the science

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and all the stuff, he was managing my
solution aversion that I'd have to that.

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Now the second thing, and, um, this
is the one that's gonna get into one

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of my favorite kind of storytelling
principles, is identity, right?

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And oftentimes really what we wanna
be as people is we don't wanna have

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our identity threatened and we wanna
do things that feel authentic, right?

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And so if somebody is telling you
to change your behavior to be more

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healthy in your behaviors, or you want
to, or they're telling you to be more

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creative, or they're trying to tell you
to tell storytelling, they might even

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think, "You know, that does sound like
a good idea, but that's not who I am.

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That's not me." And so one of the
things I really like bringing into

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this situation is something I worked
on in my dissertation and that I

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now call the destiny narrative.

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And so the idea behind this is that in all
great stories, characters change, but they

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go through a very specific type of change.

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They change into who they
were always meant to be.

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The princess was secretly
always the princess.

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The boy on Tatooine looking up at the
twin sons longing for more always had

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the force inside of him, and Moana was
always meant to sail across the seas.

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And we really, really like this
thing not only in these stories,

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but it works in marketing, right?

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Unleash your inner goddess.

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There's a warrior inside of you.

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So the idea is that we are changing,
but we're changing more into who we

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always were meant to be or who we
already are, and it resolves these

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two psychological motives that are
so in conflict all the time, right?

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I want to improve.

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I wanna have goal progress.

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I do kinda wanna change.

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But at the same time,
I wanna be authentic.

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I wanna be me.

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I wanna have some sense
of identity consistency.

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And what the destiny narrative does,
it is allows for you to stay true and

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have narrative change at the same time.

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So whenever I'm trying to persuade
people to change, I don't tell

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them storytelling is good.

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The very first thing I do is prove to
them that they're already a storyteller.

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And so now all you wanna do is
you wanna do more of that because

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you wanna do more of who you are.

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You might not be eating healthy,
but there are some habits that

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you have that are already healthy,
and that's important to you.

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So eating healthy now is more
consistent with who you are.

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So much richness in that response.

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So let me break it down
from what I'm taking away.

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Uh, solution aversion, resistance,
hesitation, concern that people bring can

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be focused on something very tangible.

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There's something I like doing
or don't like doing and you're

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threatening me because you're saying
I should or shouldn't do that.

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And a great way to address that is to
immediately address that resistance.

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This it's not as bad as you
think or they're, you're, you're

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well-equipped to deal with this.

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So address the emotion, the
concern before you layer on all

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the things that need to be done.

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And, uh, as you were saying that, I was
reflecting on my parenting and how poorly

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I did because I would always lead with,
"Here are all the things you have to do.

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And oh, by the way, you can do it."
Uh, vice versa would be helpful.

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And then the other part with the
identity piece and part of what I

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heard you say there, what's, what's so
important is this notion of consistency.

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You're showing that you're already
there or you have that ability,

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and having people reflect on that.

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So as we go to persuade, motivate,
inspire, thinking about those areas of

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resistance that, that, uh, challenge
or solution aversion, and then thinking

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about the tangible and identity issues
that play out can help us restructure

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the narrative to motivate people more.

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That's fantastic.

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One of the things that you teach and
talk about that has fundamentally

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changed the way I teach and
think about my communication

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is through the lens of portals.

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When you talked about portals, and
I'd like you to define for all of us

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what they mean, uh, it really changed
the way I think about how I start and

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how I move through my communication.

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Can you educate us all on what you mean
by portals and how we can apply that?

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Yeah.

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So my definition of portal is
about how to begin an experience.

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And the idea is, is that a portal is
a way to transition people into an

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experience where the point of it is, is
that you are getting them ready for the

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most important parts of the experience.

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So you might start with a
bang, but you really don't.

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You just need to slowly
transition people into it.

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And a lot of this is based upon
Walt Disney Imagineering, and they

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actually use the word portal to
describe how to begin experiences.

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So when you are walking into the Disney
park, you go through a tunnel, and that

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tunnel even says, like, you're leaving
the current space you're in, and you're

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going into fantasy tomorrow and the past.

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And that transition time inside of
that tunnel and knowing the direction

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in which you're heading allows you
to sort of start transitioning.

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And then when you go on each of
the rides, they have these ways in

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which they ease you into the story
that is different for each ride.

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So in Buzz Lightyear, that is a ride where
you're gonna be on the ride and you're

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gonna be shooting this little laser gun.

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So the portal into that is a cartoony
intro in which Buzz Lightyear gives you

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a pep talk and they show you the targets.

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It's silly, high energy,
very focused, right?

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And you can think of,
like, a creativity warm-up.

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They're like, "We're gonna
be really active later in

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this meeting," so we do that.

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But the portal into Haunted Mansion is
very different because Haunted Mansion

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is a passive ride in which you're
gonna go through a haunted mansion

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and you're gonna look around and
you're supposed to look for details.

00:13:38.471 --> 00:13:42.862
And so the way that introduces you is
you walk through a graveyard noticing

00:13:42.862 --> 00:13:47.702
silly little jokes on the tombstones, and
then you get in the stretching elevator

00:13:47.702 --> 00:13:51.291
where your ghost host literally tells
you to look in different directions.

00:13:51.591 --> 00:13:54.241
And so it's facilitating
you into those things.

00:13:54.571 --> 00:14:00.542
And what they're doing in these portals is
they're doing three general psychological

00:14:00.552 --> 00:14:02.641
things that are overlapping but distinct.

00:14:02.821 --> 00:14:06.381
One, it's creating anticipation
for what's to come.

00:14:06.841 --> 00:14:10.782
Second, it's getting you in the
mindset shift, in the specific

00:14:10.782 --> 00:14:12.191
mindset you're supposed to be in that.

00:14:12.451 --> 00:14:18.211
And the third is it's previewing
the narrative for that experience.

00:14:18.251 --> 00:14:22.101
So it's not telling you the whole
story, but it's giving you enough

00:14:22.181 --> 00:14:25.802
into the narrative that you're ready
to be going, what Melanie Green

00:14:25.802 --> 00:14:27.242
would call narrative transportation.

00:14:28.310 --> 00:14:30.290
I think this is such a powerful idea.

00:14:30.699 --> 00:14:33.510
Many of us in our communication,
especially high-stakes communication,

00:14:33.510 --> 00:14:35.430
we focus on what's the message we want.

00:14:35.699 --> 00:14:38.270
We don't think about how do we
bring people to that message.

00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.079
And there are lots of ways to do it.

00:14:40.100 --> 00:14:43.139
You can think about the
calendar invite you send out.

00:14:43.180 --> 00:14:44.460
That can be a beginning.

00:14:44.699 --> 00:14:48.069
As you mentioned, in a meeting, you
can have some kind of icebreaker or

00:14:48.069 --> 00:14:52.200
activity to warm people up, as long as
it's somehow connected to what comes.

00:14:52.350 --> 00:14:54.819
What drives me nuts is where you do
some kind of icebreaker, and then

00:14:54.819 --> 00:14:56.230
the next task is totally unrelated.

00:14:56.920 --> 00:14:57.650
It's whiplash almost.

00:14:57.930 --> 00:14:58.760
It, it's, yeah, bad.

00:14:58.770 --> 00:15:02.319
The point of it is we need to activate
the right parts of the brain or the

00:15:02.319 --> 00:15:06.730
right memories for the task at hand,
and that's the point of a start.

00:15:06.869 --> 00:15:07.229
Yeah.

00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:11.069
And I liked, you know, I, I played with,
uh, the three components of what a good

00:15:11.069 --> 00:15:12.860
portal does to, to make it alliterative.

00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:15.009
It's the triple A. It's anticipation.

00:15:15.649 --> 00:15:16.579
It's approach.

00:15:16.719 --> 00:15:19.450
And then I couldn't come up
with anything besides altitude.

00:15:19.450 --> 00:15:21.809
It tells you what, what
level we're coming.

00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:27.430
So, and you can do this not just at the
beginning of, of your communication, but

00:15:27.430 --> 00:15:31.440
often in meetings you might need a portal
to bring you into another topic or area.

00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:36.689
I challenge everybody listening to
think about how can we look at this

00:15:36.689 --> 00:15:42.200
idea of portal, setting people up to be
successful in a way that really helps.

00:15:42.459 --> 00:15:45.309
You know, at the beginning of this
show, I try to do that, where I give

00:15:45.319 --> 00:15:48.669
a little bit of introductory idea
to help people orient to what it is.

00:15:48.969 --> 00:15:50.089
I really appreciate that.

00:15:50.089 --> 00:15:51.689
And, and Troy, I've
appreciated everything.

00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:54.049
We'll be right back to
finish our conversation.

00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:56.539
But first, a quick word
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00:15:56.579 --> 00:15:59.729
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And now, back to our conversation.

00:17:54.375 --> 00:17:57.355
As you well know, we always
end by asking three questions.

00:17:57.895 --> 00:18:00.895
One I make up just for you, and the
other two I've asked everybody, and I'll

00:18:00.895 --> 00:18:02.245
be curious to get your answers to that.

00:18:02.255 --> 00:18:02.956
Are you up for this?

00:18:02.995 --> 00:18:03.576
Let's do it.

00:18:03.656 --> 00:18:03.975
All right.

00:18:03.976 --> 00:18:07.795
So question number one, What's
the best piece of communication

00:18:07.795 --> 00:18:09.535
advice you've ever received?

00:18:09.855 --> 00:18:15.115
Um, so the best piece of communication
advice for me, it really was tailored

00:18:15.136 --> 00:18:19.565
well to me, uh, came from one of
my advisors in graduate school, Dr.

00:18:19.605 --> 00:18:21.046
Peter Ubel, and let me set this up.

00:18:21.495 --> 00:18:26.226
So I gave my talk on my dissertation,
and I went in and he sat me down and

00:18:26.226 --> 00:18:31.266
he said, "Troy, you're one of the most
joyful people I've ever met. Your name

00:18:31.266 --> 00:18:38.046
even rhymes with joy. Uh, you sign your
emails 'Enthusiastically, Troy,' every

00:18:38.046 --> 00:18:46.573
time, and your dissertation is literally
about why people enjoy things." And for 20

00:18:46.573 --> 00:18:50.214
minutes I never saw you smile once, right?

00:18:50.444 --> 00:18:55.174
And telling somebody to smile is not
always the best advice, but for me it was.

00:18:55.174 --> 00:18:58.863
Like, part of why people like
engaging with me is that I

00:18:58.863 --> 00:19:00.283
really love these things.

00:19:00.283 --> 00:19:03.813
I'm the behavioral scientist who
worked at Disney Imagineering.

00:19:03.833 --> 00:19:06.283
People want that energy and that joy.

00:19:06.283 --> 00:19:08.063
I'm literally delivering them on science.

00:19:08.063 --> 00:19:12.373
And so it's great advice for me,
but it's also, like, who you are and

00:19:12.373 --> 00:19:16.033
what you are delivering, when you
can match that, it works really well.

00:19:16.303 --> 00:19:20.523
Yeah, so striving for congruence between
how you feel about something and how

00:19:20.524 --> 00:19:22.083
you deliver are really important.

00:19:22.153 --> 00:19:25.613
And, and I'm glad you got that
advice because you do, uh,

00:19:25.634 --> 00:19:27.314
radiate joy and excitement.

00:19:27.754 --> 00:19:31.723
Um, question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:19:31.823 --> 00:19:36.183
So one person who I really, really
like in that space is Bong Joon Ho.

00:19:36.313 --> 00:19:40.423
He is the director of the Oscar-winning
film Parasite, and also other films

00:19:40.423 --> 00:19:46.493
like The Host and Snowpiercer, and
he is so good at using direction.

00:19:46.863 --> 00:19:50.264
So in the movie Parasite, uh, if
you've seen it, the rich people live

00:19:50.264 --> 00:19:54.134
on the hill and the poor people live
literally down the hill and in the

00:19:54.134 --> 00:19:59.563
basement, and he uses that up and down
constantly for storytelling purposes.

00:19:59.843 --> 00:20:04.513
In Snowpiercer, it's a movie that
takes entirely place on a train, and

00:20:04.513 --> 00:20:08.413
so one direction is always the back
of the train, one direction of frame

00:20:08.413 --> 00:20:09.814
is always the front of the train.

00:20:09.854 --> 00:20:13.753
It's a metaphor, but it's also
spatial and it's so wonderful.

00:20:14.093 --> 00:20:19.083
And after watching a video essay by Every
Frame a Painting on the movie Snowpiercer,

00:20:19.323 --> 00:20:24.424
I was just like, "I should just be using
space for everything I do." And so I

00:20:24.424 --> 00:20:27.624
used to be a person who walked around
on stage, but just to bring energy.

00:20:27.753 --> 00:20:32.924
Now I walk, and when I move between parts
of my story I now am in a new position.

00:20:33.174 --> 00:20:35.324
I'll assign different parts of the stage.

00:20:35.324 --> 00:20:38.094
Sometimes when I'm being more
avant-garde, it's like this is, this

00:20:38.094 --> 00:20:41.504
is the scientific mind part, and
this is the artistic heart part, and

00:20:41.504 --> 00:20:45.323
this is just me in the middle, Troy,
telling you how I actually feel, right?

00:20:45.344 --> 00:20:50.974
And just the ability to use space
to tell story is amazing, and it's

00:20:50.974 --> 00:20:53.893
just so wonderful to watch movies
'cause I get new ideas all the time.

00:20:54.583 --> 00:20:58.633
I like that idea of, of observing other
forms of communication to teach you,

00:20:58.684 --> 00:21:02.523
uh, how to be better, but that use of
space is really important because you're

00:21:02.533 --> 00:21:04.533
signaling and sending lots of information.

00:21:04.543 --> 00:21:10.433
Human beings are wired to pay attention
to space, uh, and location, and doing

00:21:10.433 --> 00:21:12.423
that consciously I think adds a lot.

00:21:12.464 --> 00:21:15.263
And, and I really appreciate that
you do a nice job of bringing

00:21:15.264 --> 00:21:16.654
science and art together.

00:21:17.453 --> 00:21:20.643
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

00:21:20.644 --> 00:21:22.594
successful communication recipe?

00:21:22.944 --> 00:21:26.164
Yeah, so, uh, since we've been talking
about, a lot about storytelling,

00:21:26.174 --> 00:21:27.553
I'll do mine that's based on that.

00:21:27.573 --> 00:21:30.673
And it's cause, character,
and change, right?

00:21:31.043 --> 00:21:33.263
And just those together is really simple.

00:21:33.264 --> 00:21:37.314
If you're like, "Oh, I need to make
this data presentation more important,"

00:21:37.314 --> 00:21:38.333
okay, what are my characters?

00:21:38.333 --> 00:21:39.473
What's causing them to act?

00:21:39.473 --> 00:21:40.723
What can we do to then change?

00:21:40.973 --> 00:21:44.643
If you're stumbling on just, like,
a story about your own past, it's

00:21:44.643 --> 00:21:50.383
like, okay, what caused me to change
my mind about something, right?

00:21:50.554 --> 00:21:52.833
And all of a sudden you have a story.

00:21:53.073 --> 00:21:56.503
It's just three little tiny bits
of things that can do so much.

00:21:57.024 --> 00:21:58.273
Cause, character, change.

00:21:58.274 --> 00:22:00.053
You know I'm gonna love it
'cause it's alliterative.

00:22:00.423 --> 00:22:04.435
Interestingly I don't know that the
order of that matters if you're

00:22:04.435 --> 00:22:07.246
trying to get it, uh, to initiate
a story or move a story forward.

00:22:07.246 --> 00:22:08.936
But you need the three
ingredients together.

00:22:08.946 --> 00:22:09.266
Yeah.

00:22:09.446 --> 00:22:15.335
And our, so our brains can, our brains
understand narrative causal structures,

00:22:15.366 --> 00:22:17.696
and they don't need to be told in order.

00:22:18.085 --> 00:22:22.556
And, uh, my friend James Antony does a
lot of neuroscience research, and how

00:22:22.565 --> 00:22:27.196
he, he finds how people connect things
and remember things and pair things in

00:22:27.196 --> 00:22:29.806
the brain based upon causal connections.

00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:34.025
So if you're watching something, you can
watch, you know, a episode of Friends

00:22:34.335 --> 00:22:39.376
and they're, you put all your, "Okay,
this character is in this plot, and I'm

00:22:39.376 --> 00:22:42.945
connecting it here, and I'm connecting
these plots." Or you can watch an

00:22:42.946 --> 00:22:46.225
episode of, like, How I Met Your Mother
that's often told out of order, but

00:22:46.225 --> 00:22:48.295
your brain can put that all together.

00:22:48.615 --> 00:22:54.706
Your brain is obsessed with
understanding characters.

00:22:54.775 --> 00:22:59.956
It's a social, you're a social creature,
and it processes things in logics.

00:23:00.126 --> 00:23:04.376
And so when you have characters
in logical causations, you're just

00:23:04.376 --> 00:23:05.586
gonna reach the brain so well.

00:23:06.356 --> 00:23:08.735
So well put, as was
everything that you shared.

00:23:09.015 --> 00:23:10.396
Troy, thank you for your time.

00:23:10.396 --> 00:23:13.485
Thank you for your insights,
and thank you personally for

00:23:13.506 --> 00:23:15.065
impacting the way I communicate.

00:23:15.665 --> 00:23:15.945
Awesome.

00:23:15.945 --> 00:23:20.215
Well, it has been great to be on this,
and, uh, I love what you do here.

00:23:20.286 --> 00:23:24.475
I love that you also create some
of the best type of content that we

00:23:24.475 --> 00:23:26.165
can deliver to our students, right?

00:23:26.225 --> 00:23:31.065
You can start a class with a clip
from your podcast and really get a ton

00:23:31.065 --> 00:23:34.216
of information and get the students
excited to engage in something.

00:23:34.225 --> 00:23:34.636
Well, thank you.

00:23:34.636 --> 00:23:35.415
I appreciate that.

00:23:35.615 --> 00:23:37.966
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

00:23:37.966 --> 00:23:39.865
Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast.

00:23:40.205 --> 00:23:42.965
To learn more about creative ways
to communicate, please listen to

00:23:42.966 --> 00:23:45.416
episode 156 with Scott Doorley.

00:23:45.985 --> 00:23:50.505
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:23:50.716 --> 00:23:52.275
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:23:52.275 --> 00:23:54.875
With special thanks to the
Podium Podcast Company.

00:23:55.225 --> 00:23:58.536
Please find us on YouTube and
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