317. Plot Twist: The Second Story Hiding Inside Every Great Pitch

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Matt Abrahams: When communicating,
there are often two stories

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being told at the same time.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm excited to
speak with Rhett Reese.

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Rhett is an acclaimed American
screenwriter and producer best

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known for co-writing massive
blockbuster hits like Deadpool,

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Zombieland, and GI Joe: Retaliation.

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Alongside his longtime collaborative
partner, Paul Wernick, together their

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films have grossed over $3 billion.

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Rhett has also been very vocal
on the impact of AI on films and

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television Well, welcome, Rhett.

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Not only am I a huge fan
of yours, we go way back.

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Rhett Reese: We do, and I'm so happy you
had me so we could catch up because we do,

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we go back all the way to the psychology
department as undergrads many years ago.

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Matt Abrahams: At, at Stanford, we
had a professor, Phil Zimbardo, who

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was a guest on the show, and he would
have people take tests in pairs.

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And we were actually, we took tests
together, and I'm sure you carried me.

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Rhett Reese: We each reached out to
each other as a lifeline, I think.

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And we got an A, I remember.

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We, we did very well on that test.

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Matt Abrahams: It was a great class.

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Well, I really appreciate you being here.

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Thank you.

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Rhett Reese: Thank you for having me.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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Shall we get started?

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Rhett Reese: Yes, let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: So you've had an
amazingly well accomplished career.

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Congratulations.

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And you are known for very
witty and punchy lines.

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I'm curious, how do you toggle being
really concise and clear in getting

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ideas across, but at the same time
being playful and allowing for that

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spontaneity that you're known for?

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Rhett Reese: Well, I mean, I
do think that comedy, much like

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other forms of communication, is
best delivered in short bursts.

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I do.

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And I am pretty ruthless when it
comes to reducing a line to its

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absolute essential, you know, number
of words and its comedic elements.

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And when we write comedy, we tend to
try to find a rhythm that ends with

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the funniest word of the sentence.

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So for instance, we try not to write
past our punchline or to write past

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the funniest word because when you're
hearing a joke, you are hearing a setup,

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a setup, a setup, and then the word that
contains the surprise or the twist or

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the humorous thing that makes you laugh.

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And the rhythm is very much like
ba ba ba ba ba ba boom, like that.

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You know, it comes at
the end of the sentence.

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And if you write past that, if you write a
line that has the funniest word not at the

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very end but near the end and you write
extra words, I think what happens to the

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brain is that the brain hears the funny
word, it wants to laugh, but then it hears

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subsequent words, it needs to assimilate
those words and understand what's being

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communicated there, and I think it
somewhat muffles and, or mutes the comedy.

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So we really try, whenever we write a line
that's intended to be funny, to pare it

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down to its bare minimum, A, and then B,
have it finish with the funniest word.

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And that has held us in pretty
good stead, that strategy.

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Matt Abrahams: And those very same rules
apply to writing presentations, pitches.

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Rhett Reese: Absolutely.

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Matt Abrahams: This is
like a reunion show.

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Hilary Price, who was a Stanford,
undergrad with us as well,

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writes the, uh, single panel
comic strip Rhymes with Orange.

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She talks very similarly to you about
whittling it down to what's the essence

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of the most important part, the humor.

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Because if you think about a one
panel, you gotta do that right away.

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Rhett Reese: You, you don't
have a lot of time, yeah.

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Matt Abrahams: But it's the same idea
that you have to be thinking about the

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exact word, the placement of the word.

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So you're echoing that advice that as
we think through our communication,

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many of us just wanna get that
information out there, but you

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can be very strategic about that.

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And I appreciate that.

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Let's talk about pitching, because
you've had to pitch a lot of movies.

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Do you, beyond sort of seeing it
as a story, which I think is really

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important in taking people on that
journey, what other advice and

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guidance do you have and have you
learned in the pitching that you do?

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Rhett Reese: Well, one of the
things I would say is that we're all

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salespeople at the end of the day.

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Everybody who works in
freelance work certainly is.

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And so we're selling.

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When we go into that room,
we're selling, and we're selling

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with two stories, really.

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The first story is the actual
story we're telling, right?

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And we treat it very much like a campfire
story, like we're sitting at a campfire.

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when I say we, I've got a writing partner.

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We are sitting around a campfire,
and there's someone opposite us,

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and it's at camp late at night,
and we are telling them a story.

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And we really treat it as such, where we
take the listener's needs into account.

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We try to keep it short and fun and funny
and exciting, and it builds, and it has a

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climax, just like the actual screenplay.

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So that's one story we're telling.

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And then I think the second story
we're telling, which is a subtle one,

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is one in which the executive to whom
we're pitching is the protagonist,

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and we are basically pitching them
a story of their success should they

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buy this project, if that makes sense.

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Matt Abrahams: No, absolutely.

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Rhett Reese: So everybody has got
their own problems and their own

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challenges, and an executive's problem
and challenge is, I've only got so

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much money, and I've gotta spend it in
ways that are beneficial to my company.

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I've gotta buy the right ideas,
and I've gotta make hits.

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And in order to do that, I have to
place faith in the right people.

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And so I think part of what we do
is sort of pitching them a vision

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that, "Hey, we know what we're doing.

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You're in really good hands.

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You have a problem.

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You need good movies," right? Like,
"We are the solution to that problem.

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If you decide to hire us, if you decide
to buy this pitch, it is going to lead to

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you and your life having greater success.

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It is going to pay off down the road.

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You are gonna see a vision where
you, the protagonist of your story,

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succeed and win out," so to speak.
And I think that, that is the second

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story that's very subtly being worked
in, not in a manipulative way, but in

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a way that just says, "Look, I'm here
because I have an idea for a movie.

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I'm here because I really
believe in that idea.

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I'm here because, you know, I kinda
know what I'm doing, and my goal

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is to convince you that you can bet
on me and it will succeed for you.

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So those are the two stories
that we're telling ultimately.

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Matt Abrahams: I really like this
idea that whenever you're pitching,

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there are actually really two stories.

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The story of the thing you're pitching,
but then the story that you're creating

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for the person who needs to buy into that.

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Maybe in your case, it's an
executive producer- of a film.

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Rhett Reese: But this,
you could apply this to,

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Matt Abrahams: A VC, it could
be a boss asking for a raise.

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Rhett Reese: You name it.

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You know, it's like if you're a
plumber, you could apply that lesson

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as you're talking to the client trying
to convince them why to hire you.

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Matt Abrahams: I also wanna distinguish,
because we talk a lot on this show about

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how we can use frameworks and structure,
and the structure of the story you're

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telling for the movies you're pitching or
for the businesses the, the entrepreneurs

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are pitching can have a different
structure than that second story.

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The second story has the structure
of you have a problem, I have a

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solution, and you're gonna benefit
in some way in your personal career.

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And the other thing I heard you
say that I think is so important

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when pitching is helping the person
understand that you're the safe bet.

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Your credibility, in your case,
the experiences that you've had,

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that makes the person feel more
comfortable taking the risk on you.

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So this notion of two stories.

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Rhett Reese: You wanna lower
the risk in their mind and

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amplify the reward in their mind.

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And really, ultimately, once
the pitch starts, you are,

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they're your audience, right?

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And it just is no different from
someone who sits down in a darkened

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theater or does sit across the
fire at camp and you walk them

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through it as if they're seeing it.

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You're trying to make them visualize it.

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Matt Abrahams: That's right.

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And that again is such expert advice
for anybody pitching anything, trying

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to persuade, is show, don't tell.

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Give people an experience of it.

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Don't just tell them and that connects
with them on a much different level.

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You mentioned as part of your answer
there that you have a writing partner.

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You've done a lot of
work with Paul Wernick.

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I've always been fascinated by
collaboration, but especially

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collaboration in a creative space, right?

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You have deadlines you have to hit.

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You have big budget based
on what you're doing.

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There's a lot of pressure in that,
but at the same time, you wanna remain

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free and creative to do the work.

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Any guidance or insight you have from
working so closely with somebody for

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so many years, how do you stay creative
but also deliver on time and on budget?

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Rhett Reese: We're like
an old married couple.

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And we have very famously never fought,
maybe unlike most married couples Things

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have gotten slightly testy maybe here
and there, but largely our rule that we

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apply to keep things moving and to resolve
conflicts or disputes and make decisions

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when we have two brains instead of one,
is that whoever cares the most wins.

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That's the rule.

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We oftentimes see eye to eye, right?

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And we oftentimes someone says an idea
and the other person says, "I love it.

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Great, let's do it." Other times we hit a
sticking point, we don't necessarily see

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eye to eye or something, we just have a
little bit different vision of what it is.

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The conversation will start to ramp
up as we each pitch our version to the

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other, trying to convince the other.

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And if we don't get to a place where
one of us convinces the other, like

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thoroughly convinces the other, it
tends to come down to, "Look, I sense

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that you're more passionate about this
and you care more about this than I

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do," so tie goes to that person, right?

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Like, so let's do it that way.

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You clearly start to care more.

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And it's a nice way of diffusing
any potential conflict because one

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person realizes, "You know, this
is starting to get, under his skin.

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It's clear he really, really likes
this, and now I know it's time to

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back off and let him have that one.

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And then maybe the next time it'll
be me who is, who's more convinced

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that I'm right and wants to get
the idea across." So I think that

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policy is a pretty darn good one.

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We also have a strategy of not
really criticizing or critiquing

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each other in front of each other.

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So what we do is we split up our
scenes, we send them to each other,

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and we don't write together in
the same room, nothing like that.

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We're completely in two
different households.

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We write them separately.

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We email them to each other, and then
we rewrite each other's work from

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the privacy and safety of our own
computer, where we can just simply

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change everything we don't like.

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And then we bold the changes, and
then we send the scenes back and

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forth, and we start to un-bold as
we're both happy with something.

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But it's a very, very nice way to take a
little bit of the emotion out of it and

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a little bit of the whatever could become
testy or territorial and you just get the

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document back and some things have been
changed, and some things haven't been

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changed, and now it's up to you to pivot
off that and continue to move it forward.

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Matt Abrahams: So what's very
impressive is that you've come up with

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a system that works for you Did you
guys consciously sit down and think

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about it, or did it evolve over time?

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Rhett Reese: We did.

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We did.

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We kinda made those rules.

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I think the best thing about
having a partner creatively is

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you have a first line of defense
against doing something bad.

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I think the toughest thing as a creative
person is that you don't often know

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if your material is good or bad.

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It's very hard to judge.

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You're very subjective.

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We have that first audience, right?

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That first person who can say, "That
joke isn't funny," or, "That scene

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doesn't make sense," or whatever.

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So we've got a first line of defense
against writing something poor, and

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that is incredibly, incredibly helpful.

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But we did need to sort of set these
rules to make it safe to fail and to

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have it such that you felt okay when
that document came back and was changed.

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There was something sort
of private about it.

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Again, that you're seeing his
reactions privately in a room, safe.

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our other rule was, if he makes
a change, like, you don't have to

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necessarily go with the change.

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You can then change it a third time.

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But you're not really supposed to go back
to what you had before, unless you've got

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a pretty compelling reason to go back.

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And the other person, if they made
a change, they made it for a reason,

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and it probably wasn't good enough.

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And the minute you can set aside
your ego and realize, "Okay, if he

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changed that line, it probably wasn't
right. And I don't like his line, so

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I'll move off to a third line, but
I'm not gonna go back to the first

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line." At least not in most cases.

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Matt Abrahams: So the lesson I think
from all of us is to be strategic

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about how you collaborate and to
have that meta conversation about

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here's how we're gonna do it.

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And you found ways that worked.

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I really like this idea of the
person who cares the most wins.

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It is so typical in a conversation that's
leading to conflict to assume that the

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other person cares as much as you do.

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And so much so that my wife
and I, we learned this tool,

00:12:19.060 --> 00:12:20.350
a technique from some friends.

00:12:20.690 --> 00:12:23.570
If we have something that might
lead to conflict, we, on a scale of

00:12:23.570 --> 00:12:25.260
one to ten, declare our priority.

00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:28.910
So let's imagine she and I wanna
go out to dinner and she wants

00:12:28.910 --> 00:12:30.930
Mexican food, I want Italian food.

00:12:31.170 --> 00:12:32.960
She might say it's an eight
and I'm saying it's a four,

00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:33.710
then we don't have the conflict

00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:34.180
Rhett Reese: There you go.

00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:35.440
That's a great example.

00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.440
Matt Abrahams: And I love the, I love
this idea of how the other person

00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:42.310
cares, and then I like this idea of not
having the confrontation immediately,

00:12:42.330 --> 00:12:45.610
giving yourself time to think about
it, but knowing that if there is still

00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.513
ambiguity or debate, that you will
come together and actually discuss it.

00:12:48.513 --> 00:12:49.050
Rhett Reese: There's a path.

00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:49.780
There's a path.

00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:50.760
Matt Abrahams: Really interesting.

00:12:51.310 --> 00:12:53.950
I'd love to move into the world of AI.

00:12:54.070 --> 00:12:57.920
And I'm actually going to read some notes,
because you have some quotes that you made

00:12:57.920 --> 00:12:59.890
that actually took a life of their own.

00:13:00.110 --> 00:13:04.580
So you have some opinions on AI and the
impact on the type of work that you do.

00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:08.820
As a result of a viral video that went
out that shows a fight scene between

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:12.700
Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt that never
happened, it was all AI generated.

00:13:13.060 --> 00:13:16.040
You said, "It sent chills down my spine.

00:13:16.060 --> 00:13:18.660
For people who have devoted their
careers and lives to the film

00:13:18.660 --> 00:13:20.840
industry, this is truly frightening.

00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:26.648
I can already see jobs disappearing."
But in a separate situation or time,

00:13:26.648 --> 00:13:30.808
you said, "Hollywood has long been
a gatekeeper that keeps young, poor

00:13:30.808 --> 00:13:32.588
people away from creative levers.

00:13:32.878 --> 00:13:36.648
When a young person with no capital sets
out to impress Hollywood, they can use

00:13:36.648 --> 00:13:41.308
tools like these, and young Chris Nolans
will be among them, and amazing stuff will

00:13:41.308 --> 00:13:45.068
result." Those two quotes seem almost,

00:13:45.178 --> 00:13:45.638
Rhett Reese: They are.

00:13:45.738 --> 00:13:47.078
Matt Abrahams: schizophrenic
in their different sides.

00:13:47.078 --> 00:13:48.688
So I'm curious where are your thoughts?

00:13:48.688 --> 00:13:50.750
And it's okay to say it's ambiguous
'cause I feel the same way.

00:13:50.750 --> 00:13:51.998
Rhett Reese: Yeah, I mean,
look, I think it is ambiguous.

00:13:51.998 --> 00:13:55.288
I think we're all in a place where
we're being confronted with this

00:13:55.288 --> 00:13:58.958
new wave of technology, and we have
to decide how we feel about it.

00:13:58.988 --> 00:14:02.508
And I think it's okay for there to
be two answers to the same question.

00:14:02.598 --> 00:14:07.168
I would say, if I had to put a number
on it, I'm about 85% terrified and

00:14:07.178 --> 00:14:09.918
about 15% really excited, right?

00:14:09.928 --> 00:14:17.400
Like, so the 85% is I'm set aside the
existential issues of, is AI gonna blow

00:14:17.410 --> 00:14:20.800
us all up, or is it gonna fall into the
wrong hands, and is someone going to

00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:22.690
nefariously use it to blow us all up?

00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:26.700
You know, set aside those questions
and look at questions of joblessness

00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:29.170
and particular professions.

00:14:29.180 --> 00:14:32.910
There may only be a few now, but I think
that's gonna be a growing number of

00:14:32.910 --> 00:14:36.650
professions where a computer ultimately
can do a better job than a person.

00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.490
That is where my fear lies for Hollywood.

00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:42.940
AI is a big elephant, and I'm only
touching one part of the elephant, so

00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:46.510
to speak, metaphorically, so I'm only
seeing it through my own specific

00:14:46.510 --> 00:14:48.030
lens and my own specific career.

00:14:48.050 --> 00:14:55.680
But I can see when I watch that Brad
Pitt, Tom Cruise video, that there are

00:14:55.680 --> 00:15:02.780
going to be the means in the hands of
creators that provide crazy shortcuts

00:15:02.780 --> 00:15:08.050
to producing Hollywood quality material,
to the point where, you know, a lot of

00:15:08.060 --> 00:15:14.010
people will likely lose their job over
time as it becomes clear to the money

00:15:14.010 --> 00:15:18.600
spenders that there are cheaper ways
to make a movie than to go out into the

00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:23.810
field with an army of people in some
far-flung place and shoot for months.

00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.430
When those bells ring and those
people decide, "Oh, there's a

00:15:27.430 --> 00:15:30.420
cheaper way to do this," they're
going to take those cheaper ways.

00:15:30.630 --> 00:15:35.530
On the other side of the equation, I do
think it is likely that within the next

00:15:35.780 --> 00:15:40.320
three years probably, someone is going
to be able to sit at a keyboard and

00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:44.290
use various tools, probably provided by
different companies, depending on the

00:15:44.290 --> 00:15:49.210
task that they're approaching at the time,
to create a Hollywood quality movie, by

00:15:49.210 --> 00:15:55.030
themselves without ever going onto a set
and without ever hiring an actor or maybe

00:15:55.030 --> 00:16:00.750
even a writer and create something that is
digestible and entertaining and awesome.

00:16:00.750 --> 00:16:04.230
Now, will there be a lot of slop that
results from processes like that?

00:16:04.270 --> 00:16:04.900
Absolutely.

00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:06.010
There's gonna be a lot of slop.

00:16:06.040 --> 00:16:09.810
But among those people are going
to be people who Hollywood kept at

00:16:09.810 --> 00:16:12.380
arm's length for whatever reason,
and they've decided, "You know what?

00:16:12.390 --> 00:16:13.560
I'm gonna go around Hollywood.

00:16:13.560 --> 00:16:14.560
I'm gonna do this on my own.

00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:15.700
I'm gonna create something amazing.

00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.940
I'm gonna show them what I'm capable
of." And among those people are going

00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:22.770
to be the Chris Nolans and the Charlie
Chaplins and the true auteurs, right?

00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:25.990
And when that happens, it
is going to be a revolution.

00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:33.310
And I love the idea of somebody being able
to scale the Hollywood walls, via another

00:16:33.310 --> 00:16:38.400
means and go directly to the people, you
know, so to speak, and fight the man.

00:16:38.400 --> 00:16:39.280
I love that idea.

00:16:39.280 --> 00:16:40.390
I think it's really cool.

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.220
That's the 15% of me.

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:44.720
And the 85% of me is super nervous.

00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:47.660
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I hear the ambiguity
in your voice, and I think it's not

00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:51.160
unreasonable to be very concerned for
all the reasons that you've talked about.

00:16:51.560 --> 00:16:56.040
But there is this notion that people
who have not had access, getting

00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:57.500
access, I think, is really interesting.

00:16:58.499 --> 00:17:01.419
So before we end, I ask three
questions of everybody, one I make

00:17:01.419 --> 00:17:03.809
up just for you, and two I've been
asking people for a long time.

00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:04.339
Are you up for that?

00:17:04.399 --> 00:17:05.129
Rhett Reese: Yes, let's do it.

00:17:05.139 --> 00:17:05.339
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:17:05.649 --> 00:17:09.809
You have been very successful,
especially in a certain genre of film.

00:17:10.189 --> 00:17:13.849
How do you feel about being, I don't
wanna say pigeonholed, but people

00:17:13.849 --> 00:17:17.059
come to you expecting a certain
thing because you're very good at it.

00:17:17.699 --> 00:17:21.889
I can imagine somebody as talented as you
might have other ideas for other things.

00:17:22.189 --> 00:17:25.309
And a lot of us in our roles and
our jobs, you know, people see us as

00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:27.989
you're really good at that, and they
keep coming to you back for that.

00:17:27.989 --> 00:17:28.019
Yes.

00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:29.829
And it in some ways can be constraining.

00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.489
How do you deal with that the
constraints from your success?

00:17:33.669 --> 00:17:35.019
Rhett Reese: Yes, a very
interesting question.

00:17:35.459 --> 00:17:37.139
Hollywood's quick to pigeonhole, right?

00:17:37.219 --> 00:17:38.639
They're quick to typecast.

00:17:39.263 --> 00:17:46.923
Paul and I have done what we can to, as
we take on subsequent jobs, to try to move

00:17:47.273 --> 00:17:49.433
half steps away from what we did before.

00:17:49.633 --> 00:17:54.413
Nothing too great of a leap, but like
for instance, we wrote Zombieland

00:17:54.493 --> 00:17:57.413
first was our sort of our first
feature, screenplay that we did

00:17:57.413 --> 00:17:59.633
together, and it was a horror comedy.

00:18:00.033 --> 00:18:04.483
And after that we got a lot
of submissions for vampires,

00:18:04.483 --> 00:18:05.813
werewolves, that kind of thing.

00:18:06.193 --> 00:18:11.283
And we decided to take a half step
away and do a, an action comedy, but

00:18:11.283 --> 00:18:13.003
not a horror action comedy, right?

00:18:13.003 --> 00:18:13.823
Like, so we did that.

00:18:14.213 --> 00:18:17.253
And then after that we did a
straight action movie that was

00:18:17.253 --> 00:18:19.343
not comedy but had action in it.

00:18:19.343 --> 00:18:21.133
And then we did a romantic comedy.

00:18:21.133 --> 00:18:21.703
You know what I mean?

00:18:21.703 --> 00:18:23.553
So we were taking half steps away.

00:18:23.863 --> 00:18:29.803
Over time, what that allowed us to do was
to create a resume that we could point to

00:18:29.803 --> 00:18:33.273
and say, "Look, we can do drama, we can
do comedy, we can do science fiction, we

00:18:33.273 --> 00:18:37.693
can do superheroes, we can do horror."
So we were careful about that, to try

00:18:37.693 --> 00:18:42.373
to slowly broaden the resume because
you're right, people will, immediately

00:18:42.373 --> 00:18:46.043
see you do something well and then want
to keep you doing that thing forever.

00:18:46.183 --> 00:18:48.743
And so that was very, very
intentional on our part.

00:18:49.093 --> 00:18:52.103
On the other hand, there are worse
things than having a brand, right?

00:18:52.103 --> 00:18:55.693
Like, you know, having a brand that's
saleable, that people can trust and

00:18:55.693 --> 00:18:59.713
that they feel like, "Hey, if we
need this, then we need to hire them

00:18:59.723 --> 00:19:04.493
because this is what they do." And
we have had success, and we have

00:19:04.573 --> 00:19:06.783
made a point of creating a brand

00:19:06.841 --> 00:19:09.421
. Matt Abrahams: I think you clearly
articulated that having a brand is

00:19:09.421 --> 00:19:14.441
important, but I like this idea of half
step, of where's the boundary and can

00:19:14.441 --> 00:19:19.121
we push it just a little bit, and then
that gives you a wider circumference,

00:19:19.121 --> 00:19:22.401
when you can say, "Here's, we can do
these things." That's really important.

00:19:23.021 --> 00:19:26.541
Question number two, who's a
communicator you admire and why?

00:19:26.651 --> 00:19:28.851
Rhett Reese: My favorite
communicator is Sam Harris.

00:19:28.861 --> 00:19:30.111
He went to Stanford.

00:19:30.141 --> 00:19:36.101
He is a sort of a philosopher, thinker,
a writer on things like religion and

00:19:36.131 --> 00:19:38.191
politics and any number of topics.

00:19:38.191 --> 00:19:44.481
But what I love about him is that he
has this almost supernatural ability

00:19:45.021 --> 00:19:52.641
to speak extemporaneously in complete,
not only sentences, but paragraphs.

00:19:52.721 --> 00:19:56.881
And he doesn't use a lot of the
annoying little utterances that we

00:19:56.881 --> 00:20:00.611
all have, like you know, and I mean,
and like, and sort of, and kind of.

00:20:00.611 --> 00:20:03.081
And when you start to hear
those things, you ignore them.

00:20:03.081 --> 00:20:04.311
Your brain ignores them.

00:20:04.611 --> 00:20:08.691
But on some level it's taking them in
and it's making a speaker who's trying

00:20:08.691 --> 00:20:13.711
to be clear and trying to, emphasize
a point or make a point a little less

00:20:13.731 --> 00:20:17.831
adept at it because it just kind of
drags the text down a little bit.

00:20:18.161 --> 00:20:22.445
But Sam speaks so eloquently
with such great word choice.

00:20:22.795 --> 00:20:26.645
Matt Abrahams: He is very articulate,
and I really appreciate that part

00:20:26.645 --> 00:20:29.585
of what you like about him is not
only that he's a good extemporaneous

00:20:29.595 --> 00:20:36.535
speaker, but that he's very good at
being broad but also specific, and

00:20:36.535 --> 00:20:38.245
word choice is really important.

00:20:38.245 --> 00:20:38.735
Rhett Reese: Very much so.

00:20:38.885 --> 00:20:39.555
Matt Abrahams: Final question.

00:20:39.565 --> 00:20:44.215
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:20:44.265 --> 00:20:46.075
Rhett Reese: I think the first is honesty.

00:20:46.075 --> 00:20:49.015
I mean, there's a, I forget
the Dr. Seuss book, I Say What

00:20:49.015 --> 00:20:50.145
I Mean and I Mean What I Say.

00:20:50.145 --> 00:20:52.145
It might have been Horton Hears
a Who or something like that.

00:20:52.145 --> 00:20:57.205
But I really do think that honesty
is the most important bedrock

00:20:57.205 --> 00:20:59.085
of any bit of communication.

00:20:59.135 --> 00:21:03.915
When you lose faith in a speaker's
honesty, right, you can take

00:21:03.925 --> 00:21:05.815
almost nothing from what they say.

00:21:05.875 --> 00:21:09.045
You know, most people don't lie all the
time, but if you lie some of the time,

00:21:09.055 --> 00:21:12.745
or if you're selling something or putting
a spin on something, and it's not true,

00:21:13.065 --> 00:21:16.315
either your audience is gonna take that
communication and go into the world

00:21:16.315 --> 00:21:19.485
with it thinking that it was true and
end up falling on their face, which is

00:21:19.505 --> 00:21:24.005
terrible, or they're going to hear a lie
somewhere in there, and it's gonna destroy

00:21:24.005 --> 00:21:25.785
the credibility of what you're saying.

00:21:25.795 --> 00:21:30.595
In a world of fake news and AI slop and
all this stuff where people are spinning

00:21:30.605 --> 00:21:34.785
things and trying to be partisan and
trying to sneak, you know, untruths into

00:21:34.785 --> 00:21:40.115
to communication, I think almost the
most important communication skill is

00:21:40.125 --> 00:21:44.775
just honesty, is just to really believe,
like, if I'm selling something, I wanna

00:21:44.805 --> 00:21:46.555
really believe in that product, right?

00:21:46.555 --> 00:21:49.455
I wanna believe that when I
say, "Hey, this is a good story.

00:21:49.455 --> 00:21:52.365
You're gonna like this, and you
should buy this," that I mean it.

00:21:52.365 --> 00:21:53.575
I'm not faking it, right?

00:21:53.575 --> 00:21:54.785
I'm not being dishonest.

00:21:54.795 --> 00:21:55.555
Matt Abrahams: So honesty.

00:21:55.565 --> 00:21:56.035
Rhett Reese: Honesty.

00:21:56.035 --> 00:21:59.965
The second one I would choose would be
just considering your audience, right?

00:21:59.965 --> 00:22:04.825
Like, every piece of communication, in
theory, is delivered to somebody specific.

00:22:04.875 --> 00:22:08.665
Maybe you're talking to a crowd of
millions like the president might

00:22:08.665 --> 00:22:11.725
or something like that, but most
often in our lives, we're talking

00:22:11.725 --> 00:22:15.775
to a specific person, and I think so
much of what we communicate to them

00:22:16.145 --> 00:22:17.775
needs to be tailored to them, right?

00:22:17.785 --> 00:22:21.415
Like, if I'm talking to my
four-year-old, it's a very different me.

00:22:21.445 --> 00:22:24.015
I'm trying to make something
that will appeal to him and he'll

00:22:24.015 --> 00:22:25.805
understand and he'll latch into.

00:22:26.255 --> 00:22:29.585
And if I'm talking to my dad, that's
a whole different conversation.

00:22:29.595 --> 00:22:34.405
And I probably say If I had to
pick a third, it would be a little

00:22:34.405 --> 00:22:38.845
bit of the brevity and the clarity
and just trying to keep things as

00:22:38.875 --> 00:22:40.945
sparse and as simple as possible.

00:22:40.945 --> 00:22:44.405
We all have only so much time in
this world and, it is a drag to

00:22:44.405 --> 00:22:47.865
be around that person who talks in
circles and repeats themselves and

00:22:47.875 --> 00:22:49.695
is redundant and goes on tangents.

00:22:49.695 --> 00:22:53.795
And it's nice to have to talk to someone
who gets to the point and communicates

00:22:53.795 --> 00:22:55.185
what it is they're trying to communicate.

00:22:55.835 --> 00:22:58.615
Matt Abrahams: Honesty, understanding
your audience, being concise

00:22:58.615 --> 00:23:00.615
and clear, very important.

00:23:01.015 --> 00:23:04.965
And you role model that in the work that
you do, and it's been wonderful, Rhett.

00:23:05.045 --> 00:23:07.005
And your insights are really fascinating.

00:23:07.015 --> 00:23:10.585
And as somebody who has enjoyed
and admired your work from afar,

00:23:10.585 --> 00:23:13.715
laughing and eating lots of
popcorn it has been a lot of fun.

00:23:13.715 --> 00:23:14.145
Thank you.

00:23:14.205 --> 00:23:15.215
Rhett Reese: Thank you so much.

00:23:15.325 --> 00:23:17.345
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:23:17.355 --> 00:23:19.295
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:23:19.585 --> 00:23:22.195
To learn more about communication
in films, please listen to

00:23:22.195 --> 00:23:24.445
episode 167 with Jeff Small.

00:23:24.875 --> 00:23:29.585
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:23:30.125 --> 00:23:34.895
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to our friends at Spotify

00:23:34.905 --> 00:23:37.415
Los Angeles and Podium Podcast Company.

00:23:37.895 --> 00:23:40.875
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