321. The Respect Effect: What Stereotype Threat Teaches Us About Communication

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Matt Abrahams: One of the benefits
of communication is it allows us to

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demonstrate that we truly see other
people My name is Matt Abrahams, and

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I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I look forward to
speaking with Claude Steele.

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Claude is the Lucie Stern
Professor and Social Scientist

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Emeritus at Stanford University.

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He's held several academic leadership
roles, including Dean of Stanford's

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Graduate School of Education and Provost
at both UC Berkeley and Columbia.

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He is widely recognized for his
groundbreaking research on stereotype

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threat, and he is the author of
Whistling Vivaldi and his latest

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book, Churn: The Tension that
Divides Us and How to Overcome It.

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Well, welcome, Claude.

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I have been a long admirer of
your work, and I'm so excited to

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have this conversation with you.

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Claude Steele: Uh, I couldn't
be happier to be here.

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It's been something I've been
really looking forward to.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

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Are you ready to get started?

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Claude Steele: I'm ready to go.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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Well, I'd like to start with how I came
to first know of you and your work.

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As an undergraduate here at Stanford
studying psychology, I learned about

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stereotype threat and found it not
only interesting, but really important.

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And I'd love for you to take a moment
just to share with everybody what that

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is and the impact it can have on people.

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Claude Steele: Yeah.

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It's a kind of social predicament
that one can find oneself in.

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You're in a situation where there
are negative stereotypes about one

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or another of your identity, your
age, your race, your religion, and

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the stereotypes apply to what you're
doing in that situation, you know then

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that you could be judged or treated
in terms of that negative stereotype.

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And if the situation is important to
you, that prospect is threatening,

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and that's what stereotype threat is.

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It's just finding yourself in a
circumstance where, "Boy, I'm the

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oldest guy here. Are they going to
think all my ideas are dated and I have

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no technological competence at all?"

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And those are stereotypes I know out
there about age, and when I'm in a

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situation where they're applicable,
and if it's an important situation, I

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can worry about that, and that worry
can affect my behavior right there in

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the immediate situation, if I'm trying
to perform something, a standardized

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test where a lot of the research has
been done, or an athletic activity

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or, uh, any kind of intellectual
activity where the stereotype applies,

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it can have a pretty serious effect.

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It could motivate you
to avoid that situation.

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So it can have real, pretty profound
effects on our choices as well

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as our behaviors, who our friends
are, where we want to live, what

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schools we want our children to
go to, where we feel comfortable,

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where we don't feel comfortable.

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A lot of that would take the
form of stereotype threat.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

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It can impact us in the
moment, but also long term.

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I'm curious, how does social media
impact and influence this kind of

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stereotype and stereotype threat?

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Claude Steele: Well, I think its
effectiveness, its dramatic effectiveness

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at purveying stereotypes and images of
groups and images of different identities,

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I think it can amplify the number of
situations that people feel this kind of

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threat in because its currency is in big
part summary, quick images of identities,

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and people have no tolerance for any
elaboration or exception, so it can be

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very generative of this kind of threat.

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I do think, though, it can
sometimes purvey things that

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would reduce the threat, images
that would reduce the threat.

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So it can cut both ways, but so much of
the tenor of social media seems to be

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more of a negative sort, and that makes
us all the more, in a diverse society

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like the one in which we live, it makes us
all the more conscious of our identities

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and what people might think of us.

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So the whole phenomenon can
be amplified by social media.

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Matt Abrahams: So it can absolutely
amplify, and I think it necessitates

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that as we consume social media,
that we at least think about what are

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the stereotypes being communicated
and how does that have impact on us.

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And by bringing that to consciousness
might impact how we feel about it.

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Which leads me to the next question.

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I'm very curious to know what are
some of the most effective and

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lasting interventions that can
help mitigate stereotype threat

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and the negative impact from it?

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Claude Steele: There's been an important
evolution over the last couple of

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decades of research on that, probably
for the most part in academic settings,

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but increasingly in business settings.

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In academic settings, you know, you
have minority kids, let's say African

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American kid, he's in a, an integrated
classroom, which we think of as a very

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desirable thing, but he does know at some
level, and his parents know, that there

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are these negative stereotypes about
African Americans' abilities and the like.

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It can nag at a person, and they can be
particularly vigilant as to how they're

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being perceived, and that can, as we just
mentioned, interfere with performance

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right there in the immediate situation.

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Or it can, even if they feel that
pressure is persistent, they can

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disidentify with the whole enterprise.

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You know, every time I raise my hand and
I have this extra worry that if I get it

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wrong, I'm gonna be seen in terms of those
stereotypes and confirm, that pressure

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every day in an important situation
like schooling can be very daunting.

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You could see in a analogous
situation, a white guy who's really

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good at basketball trying to make
a career at that, he's gonna be

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seen in terms of, or could be seen.

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He doesn't know for sure if that
decision by the coach had anything to

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do with stereotypes about his group's
abilities in basketball or not.

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So a lot of the work has looked at
its impact in schooling, and there is

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where I think progress has been made.

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One thing that helps is even
knowing about stereotypes.

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It's just that this is a pressure
coming from the social context that

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we're in, and let's understand it as
such, and that can lower its impact.

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So that knowledge has been
subject to considerable research

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and pretty well established.

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I think affirmations, I'll give you
an example where students are asked

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in some of the early research, these
were seventh graders in integrated

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classroom, and the teacher asked them to
just take 15 minutes and write to me a

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little essay about the things that are
most important to you and the people

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that are most important in your life.

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So students do that, and for the
white students in the classroom,

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you know, it doesn't hurt,
doesn't particularly help them.

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But for the African American students
in the classroom, it has a dramatic

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effect 'cause it gives that student
a chance to tell the teacher that

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they're more than that stereotype.

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It sounds like a funny, easy
thing to do, but it has a very

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transformative effects on their grades.

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The student who gets to write this
essay, their grades go up a bit.

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And then because their grades go
up a bit, they feel a little less

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vulnerable to that stereotype.

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And feeling a little less
vulnerable to that stereotype,

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their grades go up even more.

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So there's a, a kind of recursive chain
of events, relief of this pressure.

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They come to understand themselves in
relation to the setting they're in in

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a different way, and it sets them on
a different trajectory, which gives

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us both a sense of, you know, how
powerful this thing can be and when

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it's unattended to how powerful it is.

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Matt Abrahams: What's amazing about that
intervention is that it is quite simple.

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Claude Steele: It's simple.

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Matt Abrahams: And that it
has such a profound in the

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moment, but long tail impact.

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Claude Steele: Yeah.

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Matt Abrahams: I wonder if the advice is,
if you are somebody who feels different

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in some way, either based on who you
are, your gender, your race, maybe you

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have an accent, maybe you're newer to
the team, you're an older person, it

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might make sense to share in ways that
you feel comfortable about yourself

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with those around you to help them
see you outside of those stereotypes

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Claude Steele: Yeah, no, I think it is.

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I think another strategy is building
relationships and focusing on building

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personal connections with each other,
because once you get a bond like that,

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the beginnings of a friendship bond,
it's less likely that person is going

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to see you in terms of stereotypes.

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It can not completely wipe out that
concern altogether, but it's going to

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substantially reduce it and enable the
person in a situation like schooling to

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allocate their attention a lot more to
the work at hand than to these anxieties,

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so it can start to have an effect.

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Matt Abrahams: I appreciate
you sharing that.

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So let's talk about your new book, Churn.

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Can you define for us what you mean
by churn, and how can it help us

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better understand relationships
and intergroup relationships?

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Claude Steele: Yeah, churn is really that.

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It's sort of that concern in a
diverse setting where there are

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different kinds of people from
different kinds of backgrounds,

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different identities, and the like.

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The concern in that setting that somehow
or another I could be devalued based on my

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identity, devalued, treated differently,
seen with different expectations.

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I could worry about those things,
whereas if I were in a situation that

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was more homogeneous identity-wise, if,
if it's just us old guys at Pete's early

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in the morning talking about things,
I feel, you know, pretty comfortable.

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The diversity itself, when the situation
is important, if you're just riding

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a bus or in a basketball game crowd
or something, no, it's not an issue.

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But when you're in a situation
where it's important to you and it's

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important to your life outcomes, then
diversity can have this, by raising this

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possibility that you could be seen in
terms of sort of out-group stereotypes

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about your group, it can be tense.

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And so churn is just the term I came up
with to capture that sort of psychological

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state of anxiety and vigilance to,
you know, like, I have to stay alert.

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It's a tension between
remembering and forgetting.

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Should I remember how my group can be
seen and use that to interpret what's

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happening to me in this situation?

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Or can I just forget that and
relax and trust this situation?

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Matt Abrahams: I really like
that definition of the tension

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between anxiety and forgetting.

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And the churn is really what's going on
in your head, the anxiety, it's, it's

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vigilance, and it's rumination, too.

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It's all of that together.

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I want to dive deeper onto ways to
reduce the stress that churn has,

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and you've alluded to the fact that
trust-building plays a factor in that.

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Can you give us an example, a real-world
example that some of our listeners in

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their workplaces might encounter that
could help reduce some of the churn

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for some of the people in those groups?

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Claude Steele: Yeah, I can illustrate
it best with an experimental finding

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led by Geoff Cohen, and Lee Ross and
I did this together, and we were just

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interested in a basic question, how
does a professor give critical feedback

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to, say, an African American student
and have that feedback be trusted?

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How do you do that?

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And so we had them write an essay
about their favorite teacher.

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We brought Stanford students, Black
and White, into the laboratory

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and asked them to write this essay
about their favorite teacher.

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And if it was good, we'd publish it in a
new magazine we were starting on teaching.

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That was the ruse.

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And we told them if they come back
in two days, we're going to give

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them the feedback on that essay.

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And they do come back in two days,
and we give them the feedback,

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and our big question is how much
do they trust this feedback?

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And what we vary is how
we give the feedback.

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And what we found was expected, but
nonetheless unsettling in the first

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two conditions of this experiment.

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When we gave the feedback
straightforwardly, "Here's the

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feedback on your essay," or we gave
it with a real positive bromide

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kind of compliment up front, "Gee,
you bring a lot of great energy to

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my class, and here's the feedback,"
White students trusted it and Black

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students were very mistrusting of that.

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And you'd wonder, well, look, they're
Stanford students, they're privileged.

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Why wouldn't they trust this feedback
in this institution that's, seems so

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committed to their welfare and so on?

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But from their standpoint,
this ambiguity comes up again.

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If you put yourself in their shoes,
you don't know whether the feedback

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for sure is based on your essay or from
the feedback giver's opinions, views,

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stereotypes about your group's abilities.

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You don't know for sure.

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And you have to, have to
remain a bit in churn.

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So the third condition gets
to the question you asked,

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which is a demonstration of
how you can get rid of it.

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In that condition, uh, very heartening,
the feedback giver says, "Look,

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we use high standards here because
we only publish these essays, and

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I've looked at your essay, and I
think you can meet those standards."

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When it was put that way, Black students'
motivations just went off the chart.

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Three times more of them in that
condition took the essay home to

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improve it, used the feedback to
improve the essay as participants in

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any other condition of the experiment.

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So they trusted it wildly.

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And you know, when you think about it,
that kind of feedback from an authority

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who says, uh, you know, "We use high
standards, and I think you can meet

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them," that kind of feedback can be very
powerful, transformative to most of us.

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It can launch us on a career path
if we get that at the right time.

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But I think that illustrates one of
the critical dimensions of cutting

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through this churn and this sense of
threat that diversity can pose to us.

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It says basically, there may
be a stereotype out there about

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your group's abilities, okay?

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It doesn't say this explicitly,
but the implication is, that may be

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true, but I respect your abilities.

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I respect you, and I respect your
abilities, and it's conveyed to

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you by me having high expectations
for you and having looked at your

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work and having, you know, see
some promise, some potential in it.

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That is a central strategy.

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When we deal with people from
different backgrounds and the like,

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it's critical to signal respect.

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One phrase I use in the book is to be able
to see full humanity and full potential

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in difference, if we can adjust our
perception, if we can just give a little

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signal, then it's very powerful, and
it can be transformative in the sense

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of enabling a relationship and reducing
the pressure that person might feel.

00:13:54.471 --> 00:13:59.971
Matt Abrahams: The ability to establish
that there are criteria on which you

00:13:59.971 --> 00:14:04.551
are making, in this case, decisions,
giving feedback, I think is good

00:14:04.861 --> 00:14:09.071
hygiene for any communication, let
alone the situation you're describing.

00:14:10.072 --> 00:14:12.472
Well, this has been a
great conversation, Claude.

00:14:12.502 --> 00:14:13.352
Thank you so much.

00:14:13.352 --> 00:14:16.262
And before we end, as you well
know, I ask three questions.

00:14:16.262 --> 00:14:18.062
One I'm gonna make up just
for you, and two I've been

00:14:18.062 --> 00:14:19.452
asking people for a long time.

00:14:19.452 --> 00:14:20.132
Are you up for that?

00:14:20.342 --> 00:14:21.132
Claude Steele: I'm up for it.

00:14:21.472 --> 00:14:24.262
Matt Abrahams: You have held
several leadership positions

00:14:24.262 --> 00:14:26.211
in very large organizations.

00:14:26.572 --> 00:14:31.451
What are one or two skills that you have
found have been most helpful for you in

00:14:31.451 --> 00:14:33.352
those leadership roles to be successful?

00:14:33.732 --> 00:14:37.091
Claude Steele: I do think to the extent
that I've been able to do it, it is

00:14:37.121 --> 00:14:41.682
understanding that everybody you interact
with needs that signal of respect.

00:14:42.141 --> 00:14:47.031
If we make a mistake in society, it's
that we think we don't have to deal with

00:14:47.031 --> 00:14:49.881
that, that we can just assume that trust.

00:14:50.251 --> 00:14:56.202
And I think the realities of our
society and life suggest the contrary,

00:14:56.242 --> 00:15:00.241
that no, you have to respect that,
and you have to build that trust

00:15:00.262 --> 00:15:03.831
and understand that that's kind
of what people need at some level.

00:15:04.281 --> 00:15:09.091
And so in ministering, I think
maybe guided in bit by, or more than

00:15:09.091 --> 00:15:12.792
just a little bit by this research,
and just watching really effective

00:15:12.792 --> 00:15:14.922
leaders, they had a knack at that.

00:15:15.242 --> 00:15:20.401
And the beloved leader is a leader that
people trust, even though that, you know,

00:15:20.401 --> 00:15:23.662
they're gonna disagree with that person,
or they're gonna not like what they

00:15:23.662 --> 00:15:25.701
have to do as directed by that person.

00:15:25.742 --> 00:15:30.322
But if they have a sense that that
person respects their humanity and

00:15:30.322 --> 00:15:36.291
their potential, they roll with things,
and you get a very different climate.

00:15:36.821 --> 00:15:39.141
Matt Abrahams: A lot of what
you have shared with us is about

00:15:39.462 --> 00:15:42.741
demonstrating that we see other
people and that we're there for them.

00:15:43.544 --> 00:15:47.774
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:15:48.464 --> 00:15:53.514
Claude Steele: I have to say Barack
Obama, because for a guy named Barack

00:15:53.524 --> 00:15:57.954
Hussein Obama to be elected President
of the United States, he's got to have

00:15:57.954 --> 00:16:03.003
that ability to give people a sense
that he respects them, that he's not

00:16:03.003 --> 00:16:07.633
gonna be polarized against them in
some way or reflexively against them or

00:16:07.923 --> 00:16:12.083
with resentment toward them and all the
things that they could be churning about.

00:16:12.514 --> 00:16:15.343
His style and language is a remedy to.

00:16:15.883 --> 00:16:21.244
So as a figure, I wish we would take his
style much more seriously and understand

00:16:21.253 --> 00:16:26.683
that the significance of it, that it
has the capacity to get to people and

00:16:26.683 --> 00:16:31.814
make them feel seen and connected to
each other in terms of their humanity

00:16:31.814 --> 00:16:34.243
first and their identity second.

00:16:34.604 --> 00:16:37.693
And that's a really
nice knack that he has.

00:16:37.784 --> 00:16:40.183
Matt Abrahams: I like that,
humanity first, identity second.

00:16:40.874 --> 00:16:44.743
Our final question, what are the
first three ingredients that go into

00:16:44.743 --> 00:16:47.053
a successful communication recipe?

00:16:47.743 --> 00:16:50.193
Claude Steele: The first
thing is recognizing that

00:16:50.284 --> 00:16:51.593
all people have this need.

00:16:52.093 --> 00:16:55.893
In the book, I talk about, uh, power
differences, is that the teacher

00:16:55.894 --> 00:16:57.424
is more powerful than the student.

00:16:57.424 --> 00:16:59.693
So who should go first
in terms of being wise?

00:16:59.693 --> 00:17:00.873
Well, probably the teacher.

00:17:01.144 --> 00:17:05.073
It's gonna be harder for the student
to expose themselves like that with

00:17:05.083 --> 00:17:08.803
trusting them without some evidence
that it, it's safe to do that.

00:17:09.184 --> 00:17:15.093
So I do think that tone is to me in
communication, both as a, within academic

00:17:15.093 --> 00:17:19.683
life, but as an administrator, that tone
is important in a diverse society in a

00:17:19.684 --> 00:17:23.873
way a lot of people need some evidence
that you're gonna be sensitive to, that

00:17:23.873 --> 00:17:25.853
you're gonna see them and see their needs.

00:17:26.104 --> 00:17:30.163
That's why they need some, as a
first ingredient, some indication

00:17:30.183 --> 00:17:34.623
that you're aware of what's at stake
here and, and you care about that.

00:17:35.333 --> 00:17:37.154
And I'm a big fanatic about clarity.

00:17:37.474 --> 00:17:40.974
I pay a lot of attention to the way
sentences are written and so on, and

00:17:41.094 --> 00:17:44.754
how things are conveyed, 'cause when
they're not or they're frustrating, it

00:17:44.754 --> 00:17:46.754
can really defeat a valuable message.

00:17:46.813 --> 00:17:48.764
So clarity, just simple clarity.

00:17:48.783 --> 00:17:51.963
Try to be really direct
and clear about things.

00:17:52.214 --> 00:17:58.603
And then third, I personally appreciate
some warmth and evidence of beneficence.

00:17:58.894 --> 00:18:03.173
I think people need to know that you're
a human being in order to trust you.

00:18:03.773 --> 00:18:07.574
And so I think of that as a really
important thing to convey, too, that

00:18:07.583 --> 00:18:11.513
you can disappoint people with decisions
that you have to make, and you have to

00:18:11.513 --> 00:18:15.063
do that if you're in an administrative
position, obviously, all the time.

00:18:15.533 --> 00:18:19.553
But they would like to have some evidence
that you're a good person and that you, in

00:18:19.553 --> 00:18:24.024
general, would wanna be as helpful as you
possibly can under these circumstances.

00:18:24.063 --> 00:18:27.844
So evidence of beneficence and
real beneficence, really being

00:18:27.844 --> 00:18:30.703
concerned about people, I think,
is a, a third thing I'd point to.

00:18:31.333 --> 00:18:33.914
Matt Abrahams: Those listening know I
like alliteration a lot, so I'm gonna

00:18:33.914 --> 00:18:37.644
take a little liberty with what you
said, but it's about connection, that

00:18:37.644 --> 00:18:39.563
tone, recognizing there's a connection.

00:18:39.903 --> 00:18:44.333
It's about clarity, and then it's
about caring and demonstrating concern.

00:18:44.333 --> 00:18:49.294
And when you do those things, you
can really see somebody, and you

00:18:49.294 --> 00:18:50.773
can demonstrate trust and respect.

00:18:51.324 --> 00:18:53.423
Claude, this was a wonderful conversation.

00:18:53.423 --> 00:18:53.934
Thank you.

00:18:53.943 --> 00:18:57.743
You shed light on some things that I
think are really important for us to talk

00:18:57.754 --> 00:19:02.964
about and had some direct, very specific
ways that we can address some of these

00:19:02.964 --> 00:19:05.053
issues around churn and stereotype threat.

00:19:05.053 --> 00:19:05.804
Thank you for your time.

00:19:06.144 --> 00:19:07.453
Claude Steele: Uh, well,
thanks for the opportunity.

00:19:07.663 --> 00:19:08.473
I much enjoyed it.

00:19:10.153 --> 00:19:12.593
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

00:19:12.603 --> 00:19:14.363
Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast.

00:19:15.043 --> 00:19:16.333
It was great learning from Claude.

00:19:16.943 --> 00:19:21.823
Really understanding the stereotype
threat implications and about churn

00:19:22.113 --> 00:19:28.253
can help all of us to trust and respect
others, and this can really help us if

00:19:28.254 --> 00:19:32.473
we take the time to think about how we
give feedback and how we orient people

00:19:32.473 --> 00:19:34.813
to our organizations and to our teams.

00:19:35.443 --> 00:19:39.133
To learn more about how to set
expectations and how they shape our world,

00:19:39.333 --> 00:19:42.114
check out episode 40 with Alia Crum.

00:19:42.464 --> 00:19:45.654
This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

00:19:45.743 --> 00:19:48.094
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:19:48.423 --> 00:19:52.394
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:19:52.734 --> 00:19:56.234
Please check out our monthly newsletter
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00:19:56.294 --> 00:20:00.663
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00:20:00.663 --> 00:20:01.914
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