277. How Small Choices Shape Better Communication

WEBVTT

00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:06.285
Matt Abrahams: When it comes
to communication and life, big

00:00:06.285 --> 00:00:08.295
things come from small things.

00:00:08.655 --> 00:00:11.955
My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

00:00:11.955 --> 00:00:13.665
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

00:00:14.055 --> 00:00:17.295
Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:00:17.895 --> 00:00:19.845
Today I look forward to
speaking with Eric Zimmer.

00:00:20.205 --> 00:00:23.775
Eric overcame personal battles
with homelessness and heroin

00:00:23.775 --> 00:00:24.930
addiction at the age of 24.

00:00:25.685 --> 00:00:28.355
And then had a very successful
career in high tech.

00:00:28.775 --> 00:00:31.715
He later became a behavior coach
and an award-winning podcaster

00:00:31.715 --> 00:00:33.845
with his show, The One You Feed.

00:00:34.265 --> 00:00:38.644
Eric has spent over 20 years studying
human transformation and habit formation.

00:00:39.095 --> 00:00:42.995
His latest book is called How A
Little Becomes A Lot: The Art of Small

00:00:42.995 --> 00:00:45.125
Changes for a More Meaningful Life.

00:00:45.905 --> 00:00:46.925
Well, welcome Eric.

00:00:46.925 --> 00:00:48.004
Thank you for being here.

00:00:48.004 --> 00:00:49.715
I'm excited to learn from you today.

00:00:50.075 --> 00:00:50.525
Eric Zimmer: Hi, Matt.

00:00:50.525 --> 00:00:52.565
I really appreciate you having me.

00:00:52.565 --> 00:00:53.915
I'm excited to be here also.

00:00:54.185 --> 00:00:54.965
Matt Abrahams: Should we get started?

00:00:55.305 --> 00:00:55.904
Eric Zimmer: Please.

00:00:56.175 --> 00:00:59.535
Matt Abrahams: Alright, let's
start with your personal story.

00:00:59.595 --> 00:01:04.065
Can you share how your journey from
addiction to sobriety has really helped

00:01:04.065 --> 00:01:06.705
form who you are and informs what you do?

00:01:07.245 --> 00:01:07.455
Eric Zimmer: Yeah.

00:01:07.455 --> 00:01:12.180
It would be almost impossible for me to
imagine what I would be like without it.

00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.120
At 24, I was a homeless heroin addict.

00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:16.710
I weighed a hundred pounds.

00:01:16.710 --> 00:01:22.470
I had Hepatitis C. I was looking at going
to jail for upwards of 50 years, and I

00:01:22.470 --> 00:01:25.020
was fortunate to get sober at that age.

00:01:25.470 --> 00:01:30.780
And what I learned through that process
is just so deeply embedded in the

00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:36.225
way that I view the world that, as
I said, I can't imagine a different

00:01:36.375 --> 00:01:37.785
way of viewing the world, right?

00:01:37.785 --> 00:01:42.075
We just get to a point where we all see
the world the way we see it, and that's

00:01:42.075 --> 00:01:44.775
a pretty embedded part of my story.

00:01:44.865 --> 00:01:48.825
And so I learned a lot through
all of that, as you might imagine.

00:01:48.914 --> 00:01:54.104
And it turns out that a lot of
that is relevant not just to people

00:01:54.104 --> 00:01:59.125
facing serious, a life threatening
addiction, but to life in general.

00:01:59.125 --> 00:02:03.925
And we live in a more and more addictive
culture in so many different ways today.

00:02:04.195 --> 00:02:05.965
That's the start of things for me.

00:02:06.600 --> 00:02:07.140
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:08.070
Thank you for that.

00:02:08.549 --> 00:02:11.700
You often leverage the two wolves parable.

00:02:12.090 --> 00:02:15.390
Can you share with us what this
story is and the lesson you'd like

00:02:15.390 --> 00:02:17.400
all of us to take from the story?

00:02:17.820 --> 00:02:18.299
Eric Zimmer: Sure.

00:02:18.299 --> 00:02:23.519
Many of your listeners may have heard it
before, but it's a story that says we all

00:02:23.519 --> 00:02:27.799
have these two wolves inside of us that
are always at battle with each other.

00:02:27.799 --> 00:02:32.210
One is a good wolf, which represents
things like kindness and bravery and love.

00:02:32.660 --> 00:02:35.000
And the other is a bad wolf,
which represents things like

00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:36.830
greed and hatred and fear.

00:02:36.860 --> 00:02:40.220
And the grandparent is telling
this story to their grandson.

00:02:40.220 --> 00:02:42.590
They say, we have these wolves
inside of us, and the grandson

00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:44.570
wonders which wolf wins.

00:02:44.600 --> 00:02:47.275
And the grandparent
says, the one you feed.

00:02:48.030 --> 00:02:52.260
So the great thing about a parable like
that is the minute I say it, you get it.

00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:54.960
On one level, you're like, oh, I see.

00:02:55.140 --> 00:02:58.110
There are choices that I make that
encourage the better parts of me.

00:02:58.290 --> 00:03:02.520
There are choices that I make that
encourage the less good parts of myself.

00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:03.820
Which do I want to do?

00:03:04.575 --> 00:03:08.625
What I love about the story, particularly
though, is I think it points to a

00:03:08.625 --> 00:03:13.005
deep truth, which is that we are
motivationally complex creatures.

00:03:13.365 --> 00:03:15.915
We want many different things.

00:03:16.005 --> 00:03:19.455
We value different things,
and these things are often

00:03:19.455 --> 00:03:20.835
in conflict with each other.

00:03:21.045 --> 00:03:24.285
Two wolves is almost an
oversimplification for it, right?

00:03:24.555 --> 00:03:27.795
But it speaks to the fact
that we all intimately know

00:03:27.795 --> 00:03:30.585
that feeling of being pulled.

00:03:30.935 --> 00:03:33.364
You know, I wanna do this,
but I also wanna do that.

00:03:33.364 --> 00:03:35.315
I value this, but I wanna do that, right?

00:03:35.315 --> 00:03:39.965
That feeling of being pulled is part
of being human and it doesn't go away.

00:03:40.265 --> 00:03:42.305
It's what we do with it.

00:03:42.454 --> 00:03:46.595
And by recognizing that we are
motivationally complex and recognizing

00:03:46.595 --> 00:03:50.644
that we are always making choices,
that we're able to make better ones.

00:03:51.274 --> 00:03:54.515
Matt Abrahams: It's a a very powerful
story for sure, and I appreciate the

00:03:54.515 --> 00:03:58.510
awareness that it brings to us, that
at any moment we have choices to make.

00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:03.630
And by making that conscious
aware, we can have some control.

00:04:04.260 --> 00:04:06.510
As you well know, we
focus on communication.

00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:09.540
I'm curious, have you in your own
life, or have you coached others or

00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:15.029
seen others who have made conscious
choices to feed some value or some

00:04:15.119 --> 00:04:18.659
action to help them be better in
their communication versus others?

00:04:18.774 --> 00:04:22.320
I can imagine finding myself in a
conflict situation or a negotiation

00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:27.609
situation where I might react in one
way, but really should be reacting or

00:04:27.609 --> 00:04:29.349
want to be reacting in another way.

00:04:29.349 --> 00:04:32.710
I'm curious your experience of
how this applies in communication.

00:04:33.370 --> 00:04:37.900
Eric Zimmer: I think that one of
the core skills that underlies

00:04:38.140 --> 00:04:43.299
all the work that I do, and also
underlies communication, is awareness.

00:04:43.810 --> 00:04:50.080
It's the ability to be able to pause,
see what's happening inside of us, see

00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:54.975
what's happening around us, and then
think, what choice do I want to make?

00:04:54.975 --> 00:04:56.595
What do I want to do here?

00:04:56.745 --> 00:05:01.485
We often operate on autopilot to a great
degree and autopilot's a lovely thing.

00:05:01.485 --> 00:05:02.175
In many ways.

00:05:02.175 --> 00:05:05.505
It's great that as humans, we can drive
home while I think about something,

00:05:05.505 --> 00:05:07.035
great, that's a good use of it.

00:05:07.425 --> 00:05:12.285
But when autopilot is operating, and
it often does in communication, that's

00:05:12.285 --> 00:05:14.055
not the time we want it to work.

00:05:14.055 --> 00:05:18.285
We want our communication to be
thoughtful and conscious, and so building

00:05:18.285 --> 00:05:19.995
the awareness, what am I thinking?

00:05:19.995 --> 00:05:25.455
What am I feeling, right now, is a core
skill that underlies everything that I do.

00:05:25.965 --> 00:05:29.535
Matt Abrahams: How did you train
yourself to find that awareness?

00:05:29.535 --> 00:05:32.835
You know, many of us are
so busy or we have so much

00:05:32.835 --> 00:05:34.725
information coming at us at once.

00:05:35.055 --> 00:05:36.375
How did you learn to do that?

00:05:36.375 --> 00:05:39.885
It's a valuable skill, but one
that can be challenging for many.

00:05:40.469 --> 00:05:43.859
Eric Zimmer: My book is called How A
Little Becomes A Lot: The Art of Small

00:05:43.859 --> 00:05:45.390
Changes for a More Meaningful Life.

00:05:45.390 --> 00:05:49.380
So you'll recognize that my answer
is you don't get it all at once.

00:05:49.380 --> 00:05:50.849
You get it a little bit at a time.

00:05:50.849 --> 00:05:55.094
And in the book I have something that
I think is unique to what I do, which

00:05:55.094 --> 00:06:01.425
is it's a method for working with and
changing our habitual thought patterns.

00:06:01.605 --> 00:06:05.535
There's a lot of information
out there about what to think.

00:06:05.625 --> 00:06:10.095
Think this, don't think that, take this
perspective, don't take that perspective.

00:06:10.425 --> 00:06:13.455
But there's very little about
how do you actually do that?

00:06:13.545 --> 00:06:18.375
And the way that you have to do
it is by frequent repetition.

00:06:18.870 --> 00:06:21.900
So I have something I call still
points, and a still point is just

00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:24.300
something that we engineer into our day.

00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:28.110
So imagine a still point
being a when and a then.

00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:32.400
The when could be like every time
I go to the bathroom, my then

00:06:32.550 --> 00:06:35.640
could be, I ask myself what am I
thinking and feeling right now?

00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:40.530
If you go to the bathroom five
times a day, you just take that

00:06:40.530 --> 00:06:41.700
time and go, what am I thinking?

00:06:41.700 --> 00:06:42.360
What am I feeling?

00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:43.920
I check in, no big deal.

00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.540
Any one of them on their own, so what
doesn't matter, but a lot of them done

00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:53.070
consistently, over time in the same
direction, you'll become more aware.

00:06:53.070 --> 00:06:57.395
You'll find yourself naturally being
more aware because you've woven

00:06:57.395 --> 00:06:58.955
it into the fabric of your day.

00:06:59.075 --> 00:07:03.095
And it's a lot more likely that at
dinner that evening when you're having

00:07:03.095 --> 00:07:06.755
a conversation with your spouse, that
you're gonna recognize what's happening

00:07:06.755 --> 00:07:10.595
inside of you if you just reflected
on it four times earlier today.

00:07:10.985 --> 00:07:15.605
So that's the mechanism, particularly
with these thought patterns, or something

00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:18.335
like being aware, that we can train it.

00:07:19.055 --> 00:07:23.225
Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of
training our awareness and the when

00:07:23.225 --> 00:07:25.685
then paradigm is really useful.

00:07:26.225 --> 00:07:31.955
I wanna talk about the knowing doing
gap that you discuss, and I'm curious

00:07:31.955 --> 00:07:36.965
to learn more about what is this
framework and how does it help us

00:07:36.965 --> 00:07:39.875
show up well in all our situations.

00:07:40.395 --> 00:07:44.805
Eric Zimmer: I think we all have
some aspects of our lives in which we

00:07:44.955 --> 00:07:46.815
want to be doing something different.

00:07:47.025 --> 00:07:50.085
We may even know exactly
what we want to do different.

00:07:50.085 --> 00:07:51.765
We may even know how to do it.

00:07:51.885 --> 00:07:54.015
We just find ourselves not doing it.

00:07:54.284 --> 00:07:55.245
It could be eating.

00:07:55.245 --> 00:07:57.465
It could be exercise,
it could be meditation.

00:07:57.465 --> 00:08:01.395
It could be conversations with our
partner, whether at work or at home.

00:08:01.755 --> 00:08:02.710
So there's this gap.

00:08:03.295 --> 00:08:08.275
And the book is really a response
to how do we bridge that gap?

00:08:08.275 --> 00:08:12.355
And I can't put it all into a single
sentence, but the little by little

00:08:12.355 --> 00:08:14.275
approach is at the heart of it.

00:08:14.485 --> 00:08:17.155
And by little, by little
I mean something specific.

00:08:17.155 --> 00:08:20.845
I mean low resistance actions,
meaning something you'll actually do,

00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:25.750
done consistently over time, again
and again, in the same direction.

00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:29.620
We often are trying to fix four or
five different things at any one

00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:31.030
given time in our lives, right?

00:08:31.030 --> 00:08:33.370
And so we're doing a little
of this, a little of that,

00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:34.390
and it's all over the place.

00:08:34.390 --> 00:08:39.730
But when we take small things that we
do consistently, in the same direction,

00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.760
we bridge that knowledge to action gap.

00:08:43.130 --> 00:08:45.560
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so we have
knowledge and then how do we

00:08:45.560 --> 00:08:47.240
get that knowledge into action?

00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:50.630
And by doing so, first is
awareness, and then finding the

00:08:50.630 --> 00:08:52.070
little things that we can do.

00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:53.990
And I know you have a
great acronym for this.

00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:56.240
I'm gonna ask you about it
because many people listening

00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:57.710
know that I, I'm a martial artist.

00:08:58.040 --> 00:09:00.410
As part of my training,
I spar with people.

00:09:00.470 --> 00:09:04.070
You learn a lot and you get a lot
of instantaneous feedback when

00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:05.990
you are in a ring with somebody.

00:09:06.230 --> 00:09:10.780
And you use the acronym SPAR as
a way to help us get at the core

00:09:10.780 --> 00:09:11.950
of what you're talking about.

00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:17.410
Can you break down what SPAR means and
can you apply it to an example related

00:09:17.410 --> 00:09:22.060
to communication so that we can maybe
use it directly and help ourselves?

00:09:22.420 --> 00:09:27.610
Eric Zimmer: So I wanna start by saying I
think that there are two competencies we

00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:29.770
have to get in order to change something.

00:09:29.980 --> 00:09:31.660
The first I will call structural.

00:09:31.900 --> 00:09:34.180
This is what SPAR focuses on.

00:09:34.565 --> 00:09:35.885
It's really about planning.

00:09:36.245 --> 00:09:38.255
The second is an inner component.

00:09:38.585 --> 00:09:43.655
So the inner component is you might know
exactly what to do, you might remember

00:09:43.655 --> 00:09:48.695
to do it, and then you don't do it, in
the moment, and that is usually some

00:09:48.695 --> 00:09:50.765
sort of inner emotional type thing.

00:09:50.765 --> 00:09:57.065
So SPAR is all the structural, and so
it stands for, S is for specificity.

00:09:57.335 --> 00:09:58.475
What am I doing?

00:09:58.875 --> 00:09:59.895
Where am I doing it?

00:09:59.895 --> 00:10:01.155
How am I doing it?

00:10:01.485 --> 00:10:02.895
So let's take communication.

00:10:03.194 --> 00:10:07.005
It's one thing to say like, well, I want
to communicate better with my children.

00:10:07.245 --> 00:10:09.435
Okay, what does that mean?

00:10:09.704 --> 00:10:13.665
Oh, I want to make sure I have
10 minutes a day that I talk to

00:10:13.665 --> 00:10:16.214
them, and I really, really listen.

00:10:16.365 --> 00:10:17.865
That's some degree of specificity.

00:10:17.865 --> 00:10:19.935
Now, I would take it further
and be like, well, when is that

00:10:19.935 --> 00:10:21.045
10 minutes going to happen?

00:10:21.314 --> 00:10:25.465
Because while we're trying to build a new
behavior, ambiguity is always the enemy.

00:10:25.615 --> 00:10:28.495
We wanna have all our energy
go to doing the thing.

00:10:28.795 --> 00:10:30.085
So specificity.

00:10:30.355 --> 00:10:31.825
The P stands for prompts.

00:10:31.885 --> 00:10:33.085
How do I remember?

00:10:33.295 --> 00:10:38.695
So I'm gonna spend at dinner every night,
I'm gonna ask my children a question

00:10:38.725 --> 00:10:42.265
about their day that's thoughtful and
I'm gonna share something from my day.

00:10:42.625 --> 00:10:43.825
How do I remember to do it?

00:10:43.825 --> 00:10:47.935
Maybe I just need a little thing that
I set down next to my dinner plate

00:10:47.935 --> 00:10:52.555
that says, like, remember to ask X.
It sounds silly, but we're so busy.

00:10:52.555 --> 00:10:54.265
Our brains are full of so much stuff.

00:10:54.505 --> 00:10:56.064
We frequently just forget.

00:10:56.125 --> 00:10:57.400
So P stands for prompts.

00:10:58.185 --> 00:10:59.865
A stands for alignment.

00:11:00.165 --> 00:11:04.125
And one of the things, if we asked all
behavior scientists in the world to come

00:11:04.125 --> 00:11:07.725
together and agree on one thing, it would
be hard to do, but I think the thing they

00:11:07.725 --> 00:11:13.215
would say is, don't rely on willpower
or discipline any more than you have to.

00:11:13.515 --> 00:11:16.965
Set up your environment to
make it likely you do it.

00:11:17.175 --> 00:11:18.765
So alignment is about doing that.

00:11:18.765 --> 00:11:20.655
So what's an example for communication?

00:11:20.925 --> 00:11:23.565
Part of our environment is other people.

00:11:23.925 --> 00:11:28.605
So I might, if I have a spouse, I
might say, can you help me remember?

00:11:28.815 --> 00:11:30.255
That's setting up my alignment.

00:11:30.525 --> 00:11:33.555
Or saying to them ahead of time, this
is something I wanna do every evening,

00:11:33.555 --> 00:11:34.995
would you support me in doing it?

00:11:35.235 --> 00:11:35.835
Alignment.

00:11:36.105 --> 00:11:41.295
And then finally, R stands for resilience,
which basically means planning for what

00:11:41.325 --> 00:11:43.635
is going to go wrong or could go wrong.

00:11:43.905 --> 00:11:45.585
So what am I going to do?

00:11:45.959 --> 00:11:49.410
If I'm not at home for dinner,
is there still a way that I could

00:11:49.410 --> 00:11:52.350
have that conversation that I want
to have with my kids each day?

00:11:52.589 --> 00:11:53.400
Maybe there is.

00:11:53.579 --> 00:11:55.469
Maybe I say, oh, if I don't
make it home for dinner, I'll

00:11:55.469 --> 00:11:56.699
do it with them before bed.

00:11:57.060 --> 00:12:01.230
Or if I'm traveling, maybe I'll send them
a text where I ask them the question.

00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:06.060
And so SPAR allows us to get
everything set up and have clear

00:12:06.060 --> 00:12:09.569
plans for what we're going to do,
how we're going to do it, what we're

00:12:09.675 --> 00:12:11.115
gonna do when we're unable to do it.

00:12:11.670 --> 00:12:14.820
Then we can put all our
attention into the actual doing.

00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:17.640
So that's SPAR with an
idea around communication.

00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:18.840
Matt Abrahams: I love it.

00:12:18.870 --> 00:12:22.680
It sets us up for success and
it makes us more thoughtful and

00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:24.750
intentional in what we're doing.

00:12:24.990 --> 00:12:28.290
So many of us could just be frustrated
that we don't have the connection with

00:12:28.290 --> 00:12:30.450
our kids that we want to, for example.

00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:35.010
And this becomes a very clear action
plan that is likely to succeed.

00:12:35.010 --> 00:12:38.100
One, because it's defined,
and two, because we align it

00:12:38.130 --> 00:12:40.650
with others and our situation.

00:12:40.650 --> 00:12:43.950
And I really like the resilience
point, which is in some

00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:45.540
ways contingency planning.

00:12:45.810 --> 00:12:48.060
What do I do if I can't execute on this?

00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.260
So specific, have prompts,
alignment, and resilience.

00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:52.860
Thank you.

00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:55.530
And you said that this is
one part of the equation.

00:12:55.530 --> 00:12:57.240
This is the framework side.

00:12:57.510 --> 00:13:00.780
The internal motivation side, talk
to me a little bit about that.

00:13:00.870 --> 00:13:03.480
You know, I can have the
desire but not the will.

00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:05.910
Curious, how do we get that motivation?

00:13:06.525 --> 00:13:11.415
Eric Zimmer: I don't love to talk
about motivation a ton because it's a

00:13:11.415 --> 00:13:14.175
feeling and feelings just come and go.

00:13:14.175 --> 00:13:15.015
They change.

00:13:15.435 --> 00:13:20.055
Now, I do think it's important that we're
clear on why something matters to us.

00:13:20.190 --> 00:13:25.020
So, if we're going to say, I'm going
to do X, Y, or Z, why does it matter?

00:13:25.020 --> 00:13:27.990
We wanna get to the heart of that and
we wanna understand it emotionally.

00:13:28.260 --> 00:13:32.370
But waiting to be motivated is
often a trap because you don't have

00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:33.900
to be motivated to do something.

00:13:33.930 --> 00:13:38.339
I exercise many, many days when
I am very far from motivated.

00:13:38.910 --> 00:13:43.020
I do not feel like doing
it at all, and yet I do it.

00:13:43.140 --> 00:13:46.500
So the emotional side is, let's
stick with the example we've got.

00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:51.720
You are there and you want to ask the
question, but your teenager tends to

00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:55.440
be like, oh dad, you know, or they
just don't really like to do it.

00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:59.250
And so you're like little
tentative about wanting to do it.

00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:02.880
And so it's easy in the moment,
okay, I should do it now, but I'm

00:14:02.880 --> 00:14:05.640
not going to do it 'cause it makes
me a little bit uncomfortable.

00:14:05.905 --> 00:14:08.785
That's the emotional inner aspect of it.

00:14:09.235 --> 00:14:12.535
And what we don't need to do
is solve all the discomfort.

00:14:12.775 --> 00:14:16.194
All we have to do is figure out,
what is it that I need to do to get

00:14:16.194 --> 00:14:18.115
me over the hump in that moment?

00:14:18.265 --> 00:14:22.135
And that's what SPAR does, is
it puts us at a choice point.

00:14:22.464 --> 00:14:27.385
And at a choice point, we either act the
way we want or the way we didn't want to.

00:14:27.655 --> 00:14:31.615
If we didn't do what we wanted to do,
we can zero in right in on that moment.

00:14:31.824 --> 00:14:33.180
What was I saying to myself?

00:14:33.885 --> 00:14:37.964
So I identify in the book what I call
the six saboteurs of self-control.

00:14:38.354 --> 00:14:42.045
One saboteur of self-control
is the insignificance trap.

00:14:42.555 --> 00:14:47.564
It means that we don't connect
the dots between the little things

00:14:47.564 --> 00:14:49.995
we do today with the big picture.

00:14:50.114 --> 00:14:53.175
So it's very easy to be like, ah,
I'm just not gonna do it tonight.

00:14:53.175 --> 00:14:54.435
I mean, what does it really matter?

00:14:54.435 --> 00:14:55.665
One night's not a big deal.

00:14:55.665 --> 00:15:00.015
'Cause we emotionally don't wanna do it
'cause it's a little uncomfortable for us.

00:15:00.194 --> 00:15:02.535
If we're in that, we need
to say to ourselves, wait.

00:15:02.925 --> 00:15:06.585
Every chance to connect with my child
is important to me, and I know it's

00:15:06.585 --> 00:15:08.235
gonna be slightly uncomfortable.

00:15:08.385 --> 00:15:13.095
I also know that this is very
aligned with what I value, and

00:15:13.095 --> 00:15:14.715
so I'm gonna be uncomfortable.

00:15:14.775 --> 00:15:15.555
I can still do it.

00:15:15.555 --> 00:15:19.785
That's an example of just taking
that moment and rescripting what

00:15:19.785 --> 00:15:21.525
it is we're saying to ourselves.

00:15:21.705 --> 00:15:25.455
So if we can identify what is it that's
getting in the way, we can learn to

00:15:25.455 --> 00:15:29.260
talk to ourselves and essentially
coach ourselves to take the action.

00:15:30.105 --> 00:15:32.415
Matt Abrahams: That's a very
powerful idea, the rescripting.

00:15:32.745 --> 00:15:36.315
And the rescripting comes from an
awareness, and the awareness comes

00:15:36.315 --> 00:15:37.995
from the discomfort, you know?

00:15:37.995 --> 00:15:39.465
So it's a natural cascade.

00:15:39.465 --> 00:15:41.475
Where am I feeling uncomfortable?

00:15:41.475 --> 00:15:42.615
Where's the discomfort?

00:15:42.765 --> 00:15:44.415
What might be leading to it?

00:15:44.655 --> 00:15:49.280
And that requires us to self-reflect
and to understand our values

00:15:49.755 --> 00:15:51.345
and how we're not aligned.

00:15:51.765 --> 00:15:54.495
And then from there, think
about the rescripting.

00:15:55.560 --> 00:15:58.080
Eric, this has been a
fantastic conversation.

00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.740
So much of what you say is directly
applicable and aligns with a lot

00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:03.120
of the things that I think about.

00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.130
I'd love to wrap up as we always do.

00:16:05.190 --> 00:16:06.780
I ask three questions at the end.

00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:10.620
One I create just for you and the
other two I've been asking all along.

00:16:10.650 --> 00:16:11.030
Are you up for that?

00:16:11.570 --> 00:16:12.200
Eric Zimmer: Yes.

00:16:12.530 --> 00:16:13.190
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:16:13.590 --> 00:16:15.020
You host a podcast.

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:15.470
Eric Zimmer: Yep.

00:16:15.770 --> 00:16:19.760
Matt Abrahams: Share with me something
that's surprised you as you've done

00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:23.270
this, in terms of things you've
learned or uncovered as a host

00:16:23.270 --> 00:16:24.860
or interacting with your guests.

00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:28.790
Eric Zimmer: It's very tempting when
doing it to have someone on, I'm gonna

00:16:28.790 --> 00:16:32.150
have you on the show, for example, so
it's gonna be very tempting to get you to

00:16:32.150 --> 00:16:36.410
say a lot of smart things that are gonna
help our listeners, and that's important.

00:16:36.735 --> 00:16:41.505
I've also realized though, that a
big part of communication is not

00:16:41.625 --> 00:16:44.415
exactly the things that you teach.

00:16:44.685 --> 00:16:50.565
It's the spirit in which you teach them
and the way that you make people feel like

00:16:50.775 --> 00:16:53.595
you understand them, they understand you.

00:16:53.805 --> 00:16:58.035
And so I think for me it's been, I've
recognized more that, yes, I wanna get the

00:16:58.035 --> 00:16:59.925
good ideas out of the people that come on.

00:17:00.495 --> 00:17:03.855
I also wanna create an environment
where I connect with that

00:17:03.855 --> 00:17:05.355
person, they connect with me.

00:17:05.355 --> 00:17:11.385
We have a genuine conversation, and I'm
also trying to, in a sense, think about my

00:17:11.385 --> 00:17:16.425
listener as I'm going, and think of them
as that other part of that conversation,

00:17:16.784 --> 00:17:19.514
I think, is one of the things that
I've just gotten better at over time.

00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.770
Matt Abrahams: It is an ever
evolving skill, isn't it?

00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:27.750
I find the conversations wonderful, but
I also find the learning that I have.

00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:32.430
What I heard you say is it's really
about connection beyond content.

00:17:32.610 --> 00:17:34.050
That's so true for me as well.

00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:36.900
I'll be curious to get your
answer to our second question.

00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.750
Who's a communicator
that you admire and why?

00:17:40.169 --> 00:17:42.300
Eric Zimmer: There are so many
great communicators, but when

00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:46.705
I saw this question, I thought
of someone named David Whyte.

00:17:46.935 --> 00:17:53.970
David Whyte is a poet and an essayist,
and what I love about David Whyte is

00:17:54.030 --> 00:18:00.195
he is willing to be very spare with
what he says and doesn't feel the need

00:18:00.195 --> 00:18:04.485
to overexplain it, which part of what
poetry tends to do, it lays something

00:18:04.485 --> 00:18:06.794
out there and lets it work on you.

00:18:07.125 --> 00:18:10.725
David does that in essays, and I've
interviewed him a few times for the show.

00:18:10.725 --> 00:18:16.274
He's incredibly articulate, incredibly
smart, has a wonderful Irish accent,

00:18:16.274 --> 00:18:17.715
you could listen to him for days.

00:18:18.044 --> 00:18:24.885
It takes me a little while to downshift
into David's pace, but when I do, I

00:18:24.885 --> 00:18:31.605
just feel like there is this sort of
stunning luminosity to what he writes.

00:18:31.695 --> 00:18:38.025
And so he's an example of a
type of communicator for me that

00:18:38.025 --> 00:18:41.055
shows how they pay attention.

00:18:41.055 --> 00:18:42.675
It's what I love about poets.

00:18:43.065 --> 00:18:46.575
They teach me how to pay attention
to the world differently.

00:18:46.575 --> 00:18:51.105
They're observing the ordinary
in a way that I'm generally not.

00:18:51.435 --> 00:18:57.285
So they are communicating, but they're
also teaching me how to see, and David is

00:18:57.285 --> 00:18:58.740
one of the best examples of that to me.

00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.635
Matt Abrahams: How
poetically put yourself.

00:19:01.635 --> 00:19:05.625
You've learned a lot from him and others,
but a communicator you admire is one who

00:19:05.625 --> 00:19:07.185
teaches you how to see things differently.

00:19:07.185 --> 00:19:10.605
And I also heard in that they
help you downshift, in this

00:19:10.605 --> 00:19:12.915
case to resonate at their level.

00:19:13.185 --> 00:19:17.685
And like you, I can be moving, at
least mentally, in a frenetic pace,

00:19:17.745 --> 00:19:20.595
and some of the best communicators
and best communication I've had

00:19:20.595 --> 00:19:22.395
is when I slow down and connect.

00:19:22.455 --> 00:19:23.115
So thank you.

00:19:23.545 --> 00:19:24.445
Final question.

00:19:24.505 --> 00:19:30.115
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:19:30.625 --> 00:19:31.795
Eric Zimmer: I think intention.

00:19:32.005 --> 00:19:34.135
What is important about this conversation?

00:19:34.225 --> 00:19:36.355
What do I want to happen
in this conversation?

00:19:36.355 --> 00:19:38.005
What matters here?

00:19:38.095 --> 00:19:46.345
Is a really, for me, in conversations that
are important, clarity is really useful.

00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:50.155
Kind of back to what we talked about
with SPAR, then I think it's attention.

00:19:50.774 --> 00:19:53.504
We often think that good
communication means all our

00:19:53.504 --> 00:19:55.125
attention is on the other person.

00:19:55.604 --> 00:19:56.534
I don't think that's true.

00:19:56.774 --> 00:20:01.335
I think that, yes, we have to be very
focused on the other person, but I think

00:20:01.335 --> 00:20:07.215
a certain amount of attention has to be
to what's going on inside of us as we're

00:20:07.215 --> 00:20:12.195
having the conversation, because otherwise
we are always reacting internally.

00:20:12.375 --> 00:20:16.155
If we're not aware of it, if all
our attention is out there, then

00:20:16.450 --> 00:20:19.150
everything's getting churned up back
here and I don't know what it is.

00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:22.960
So I need to keep some part of
my gaze what's going on inside

00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.820
me so that I can work with it.

00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:28.960
So I think intention where I want
the conversation to be in general,

00:20:29.110 --> 00:20:34.390
attention on me and the other
person, and then, I think for me,

00:20:34.540 --> 00:20:36.340
there's always a pause element.

00:20:36.790 --> 00:20:41.260
There's always an element
of slow down and pause.

00:20:42.030 --> 00:20:45.600
Matt Abrahams: So intention,
directionality, attention, both

00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:50.010
externally and internally, and
slowing down, being present, pausing.

00:20:50.699 --> 00:20:52.050
I completely agree.

00:20:52.139 --> 00:20:55.560
If those are in alignment, the
communication is successful.

00:20:56.159 --> 00:21:01.020
Well, Eric, I appreciate all the insights
that you have shared specifically

00:21:01.024 --> 00:21:06.360
around how we can change and align
ourselves with our goals, how it's

00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:08.459
little things that lead to big things.

00:21:08.985 --> 00:21:10.425
And it's choices we make.

00:21:10.425 --> 00:21:11.385
What do we feed?

00:21:11.655 --> 00:21:13.185
How does it align with our values?

00:21:13.515 --> 00:21:16.305
Thank you so much, and best
of luck with your new book and

00:21:16.305 --> 00:21:18.285
continued success with your podcast.

00:21:18.525 --> 00:21:19.305
Eric Zimmer: Thanks so much, Matt.

00:21:19.305 --> 00:21:19.995
It's been a pleasure.

00:21:22.245 --> 00:21:24.075
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:21:24.075 --> 00:21:26.355
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:21:26.595 --> 00:21:29.175
To learn more about behavior
change and personal growth, please

00:21:29.175 --> 00:21:31.915
listen to episode 86 with BJ Fogg.

00:21:32.175 --> 00:21:36.825
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:21:37.185 --> 00:21:39.435
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.

00:21:39.825 --> 00:21:42.645
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcast.

00:21:43.095 --> 00:21:45.375
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:21:45.615 --> 00:21:48.465
Also, follow us on LinkedIn,
TikTok, and Instagram.

00:21:48.885 --> 00:21:52.875
And check out fastersmarter.io for
deep dive videos, English language

00:21:52.875 --> 00:21:54.915
learning content, and our newsletter.

00:21:55.215 --> 00:21:58.195
Please consider joining our Think
Fast Talk Smart Learning Community

00:21:58.195 --> 00:22:00.295
at fastersmarter.io/learning.

00:22:00.945 --> 00:22:04.935
You'll find video lessons, learning
quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI

00:22:04.935 --> 00:22:06.825
coach, and book club opportunities.

00:22:07.485 --> 00:22:12.615
Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning
to become part of the Think Fast

00:22:12.765 --> 00:22:14.355
Talk Smart Learning Community.