272. Say What Sticks: The Neuroscience of Memorable Communication

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: To combat the inevitable
forgetting of your content that

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your audience will experience, you
need to define your 10% message.

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My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I am really excited to
speak with my friend Carmen Simon.

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Carmen is a cognitive neuroscientist,
author, and speaker who studies

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the way the human brain processes
and retains information.

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Her work focuses on helping professionals
create memorable experiences that

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influence decision making and behavior.

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She's the author of Impossible
to Ignore: Create Memorable

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Content to Influence Decisions.

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Well, welcome Carmen.

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I am so excited to have you here.

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It's about time you've been on the show.

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We've known each other for decades, and
I'm really excited to have you here.

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Carmen Simon: Thank you so much for
inviting me and welcome everyone.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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So let's get started.

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In your research, in your book,
Impossible to Ignore, you discuss the

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difference between attention and memory.

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You go further to say that memory
is a byproduct of attention.

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How can a communicator design a
message that's not just experienced

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in the moment, but is structured to
create lasting memory that influences

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future decisions and behaviors?

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Carmen Simon: That's a strong question
and a very deep one, because to aspire

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at creating memory traces in somebody
else's brain, it sounds very good and

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noble on the surface, not so easy to
do in practice, because we forget our

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lives almost as quickly as we live them.

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Matt Abrahams: More so
as I get older, for sure.

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Carmen Simon: It's to say for
all of us after the age of

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25, it's a downhill battle.

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It's not that it's impossible.

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We have to try harder to first
pay attention, and as a result of

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that, remember a little bit better.

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It's not easy to pay attention.

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Attention is one of the most misunderstood
cognitive processes in the brain.

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The good news though, is that we
don't pay attention just in one way.

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We pay attention in various ways.

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We have multiple attention systems.

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So one practical guideline that we
can share with our audiences is, as

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you think about attention, your own
or attracting other people's, think of

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it in terms of these two dimensions.

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One is, where are you looking?

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Because attention can be
paid to the external world.

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What is something that has gotten
your attention lately, for instance?

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Matt Abrahams: I'm spending a
lot of time thinking about AI.

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Carmen Simon: Okay, so
you've, uh, turned around.

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You're surrounded by tools.

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Some are text-based, some are voice-based,
but the attention is going outward.

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Attention can also be paid inward.

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As you're thinking about AI, and perhaps
you have some introspective thoughts, are

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these tools getting better than we are?

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Are they as creative as we are?

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Where are you looking
internally or externally?

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And there's also another dimension,
which is who's dictating the looking?

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Are you looking on your own accord,
either outside or inside, or is

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someone prompting you to look?

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Because sometimes you may be passing
by somebody or something and suddenly

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you just have to do a double take.

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At the intersection of these two
variables, where are you looking

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and who's doing the looking or
prompting it, you might think, well,

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I have a lot of control in terms of
prompting someone to look outside.

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From that perspective, you can use
some physical properties of a stimulus.

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Like for instance, if something
is small all the time, then making

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something large will get attention.

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If something is quiet, then something that
will be louder will get your attention.

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So think about some properties of a
stimulus that you can manipulate on

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your own and that makes someone look, if
you make them look, you're more likely

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to enable them to remember something.

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Matt Abrahams: That's really fascinating.

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So it's taking something and
changing the way it normally appears.

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Our brains are wired for novelty
or things that change, so

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that attracts our attention.

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Carmen Simon: Luckily, novelty is not the
only thing that attracts our attention,

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but yes, if you can make something new,
or sometimes you don't have to put so

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much pressure on yourselves, 'cause
coming up with something new all the

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time, that would be very difficult.

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But I want to make a distinction between
these two terms, novelty and surprise.

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Novelty is something that you
haven't seen or experienced

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before, very hard to come up with.

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Surprise is something that you have seen
or experienced before but did not expect.

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And the reason why that still works
on attention is because the difference

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between what you expect and what
happens is how the brain learns.

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So biologically speaking, we don't
really like surprises, because

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what is a surprise but a failure
to predict what happens next.

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But we can afford not to pay attention
to surprises because a brain that

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predicts the next step is a brain
that survives a little bit longer.

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So for example, I remember seeing
an image in a presentation that

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somebody had created of an eggshell,
and out of it comes this little pug.

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You don't expect that.

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You have seen the pug before.

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You have seen an eggshell before,
but not in that combination.

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So as a practical guideline, wonder,
can you look at what your audiences

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are looking at and expecting?

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And at some point, twist the familiar.

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Matt Abrahams: And it doesn't have to
be as dramatic as having a dog come

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out of an eggshell, but it could be
anything that's slightly surprising.

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And by virtue of helping guide people's
attention, does that necessarily

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mean that they'll remember it more?

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Carmen Simon: Typically, so if you
can't have attention, you are increasing

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the chances of memory and what is
science, but the increased likelihood

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that something is going to happen,
is it going to happen all the time?

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Definitely not, and it's unfortunate
because I would love if a hundred

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percent of attention turned into
a hundred percent of memory,

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and that is not always the case.

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Often attention is combined with some
stronger emotion too, because you may

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see the pug and the eggshell, but maybe
you don't really care about pugs at all.

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You're thinking, ah, yeah, whatever.

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And those segments are not
really all that easy to come by.

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Like I remember a classic study that
was done on a campus and somebody

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had put a clown on a unicycle, and
they wanted to see how much attention

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would that clown on a unicycle get?

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And because people were walking,
looking at their phones, maybe a

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fraction of those paid attention, even
those who did look weren't necessarily

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tuned into what was happening.

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So even though visually you're
seeing it, you're not really

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processing all that fully.

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So therefore the memory
for it is not as strong.

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So imagine I look with humility at
business content because hardly ever are

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we in the position to create something
as exciting as a clown on a unicycle.

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So if that doesn't get
attention, it's very clear that

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we have to work hard at it.

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Matt Abrahams: In the business
context, people are often

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distracted by other things.

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So actually just getting that
focus in the first place is hard.

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Carmen Simon: So true, multitasking
and distractions are quite

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often the biggest culprits to
attention and therefore memory.

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So in a humbling kind of way, look
at what people are doing, deviate

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from the pattern, and a step before
that would be what we call priming.

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So get the brain in a ready
state to pay attention.

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One of the reasons we may not
observe the clown on a unicycle is

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because we're not ready for something
that's a little extra special.

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So priming means getting the
brain to process the stimulus

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so that the next stimulus can be
processed a little bit differently.

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So if you sacrifice some of your
darlings, let's just say, you're

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coming up with some of these surprising
elements, something that's a little bit

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more unusual, put those elements right
before something that really has to get

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attention and therefore be memorable.

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So don't waste those within a sequence.

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Place them strategically before points
that really have to get attention.

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Matt Abrahams: Really interesting.

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So this notion of priming and disrupting
patterns can be really powerful and

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as somebody who does what I do, uh,
helping people craft stories, we

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often talk about the emotional arc
or the logic of the story, but what

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I hear you is adding something else
to it, which is thinking about where

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those things that are most surprising
fall, and what you can do beforehand

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to get people prepared for them.

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That adds a whole nother dimension,
but one that could be very valuable.

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Carmen Simon: Very valuable
because everything has a sequence.

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Something happens first, and
then something else happens

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and something else happens.

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And I'm noticing in my neuroscience
research quite often it is very important

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to get their brain in a ready state.

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Matt Abrahams: Gimme an example
of something you could do to prime

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somebody for a typical business
presentation that somebody might do.

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What might I do to help?

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Carmen Simon: Let's think
of some primers first.

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There's some generic ones, just so you
can recognize the power of priming.

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So for instance, let's just say that
I wanted you to process the word table

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a little bit easier, if I said to
you the word chair, you'd be a little

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bit more ready for the word table.

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But I, if I said to you the
word tiger, you would not be

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all that ready for the next one.

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In business content, let's just say that
you want people to remember the fact

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that if they use your services, they
will be prepared for AI, for instance.

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You could have a semantic prime,
you could have an emotional prime.

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A strong story can be a good primer
to an otherwise abstract message.

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Matt Abrahams: I'm reminded of a
conversation I had with Robert Cialdini,

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and he talked about pre-suasion,
the things that we can do in advance

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to make somebody more likely.

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And he gave the example of a mattress
company who on their website had pictures

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of clouds, and the idea was that our
beds are very comfortable and soft.

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And so you're priming the brain
to think about that, and I

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find this really fascinating.

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You argue that the brain
is naturally forgetful.

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How can a speaker proactively
build retention moments into their

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presentations or communication using
specific, perhaps linguistic or

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visual cues, to ensure that the most
critical information isn't forgotten?

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Carmen Simon: What I'm noticing in my
research, no exception, is after 48

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hours, people forget 90% or more of
the content that they're exposed to.

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Beyond the fancy environment of
it all, beyond the handwriting of

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it all, people naturally forget.

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We haven't merged with AI yet.

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We have human brains, and
those brains are fallible.

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I'm not so worried about
the 90% that is forgotten.

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I am worried about the 10%, let's consider
it a metaphorical number because sometimes

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people forget way more, by the way.

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Every so often I'm noticing
increase just slightly, not by much.

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So the metaphorical 10% tends
to stay there across time.

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You need it to stay there because people
make decisions in your favor based on what

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they remember, not on what they forget.

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But what I worry about that 10% is that
it is random unless you take care of it.

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What I mean by that is if you present
to a group of 20 people, one person

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will take away one 10% message,
another one will take another one,

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and another one will take another one.

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And the reason sometimes decisions in your
favor are slower is because not everyone

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walks away remembering the same things.

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So you're not just after a memory or
after a unified memory across a group.

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Decisions are hardly ever
individual, usually they're social.

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So as a practical technique ahead of
time, wonder what is your 10% message.

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So many people aspire at attention
and memory, but very few really know

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what they want to be memorable for.

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So as you're listening to us have
this conversation, ask the question

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always, what is my 10% message?

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And if you had the courage to call your
audience members in 48 hours and say,

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what do you remember from that segment?

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Would you be satisfied with their answer?

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You're only satisfied with the
answer if you know your 10% message

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and then there is no secret.

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Repetition is the mother of memory.

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You'll come back to that
message again and again.

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Like for instance, if we had to
create a 10% message for this show

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right now, let's call it control
your 10% and one criteria then for

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controlling your 10% is you clarify it.

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Then you repeat it more
often than you think.

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In my studies, I'm showing that in a
five minute presentation, a repetition

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of four times is necessary for you
to be in charge what they take away,

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10 minutes repetition of at least six
times, 20 minutes, at least 12 times.

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And the reason I think people are
not so comfortable with repetition

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is because they think I'm approaching
very smart audiences, especially

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people in tech, especially people
globally who have brilliant minds.

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Even those brilliant minds still
have human brains and their memory

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is just as valuable as yours.

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Repeat your 10%.

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Matt Abrahams: This notion of picking
what is your 10% and doubling down and

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really focusing, really, really important.

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Does that repetition have to be saying
the same thing exactly the same way?

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Or can I say it, and then tell
a story that reflects it or use

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an analogy that represents it?

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Does the repetition have to be
the same words to get the effect?

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Carmen Simon: I like where you're going
to in the sense of you're using the

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repetition, you're using the analogy.

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You can use all of the other
techniques you want, as long as

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once you're done with those, you
come back to the exact same message.

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Don't leave it to chance and
don't leave it to them because

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especially from a beautiful story,
people can extract so many other

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meanings and so many other nuances.

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So they can take it in many directions,
but no, we want to come back to the

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same main message, control your 10%,
for instance, for our conversation.

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Matt Abrahams: So you can use a variety of
tools for repetition, but you definitely

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wanna say the same thing a few times.

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So if I have to say it 12 times for a 20
minute presentation, maybe I actually say

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the literal words three or four times, but
I use all these other examples to fit in.

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Carmen Simon: You can use the other
examples, but come back 12 times because

00:12:50.095 --> 00:12:53.215
when you want people to decide in your
favor, they will use their memory.

00:12:53.485 --> 00:12:57.715
And if you are in a competitive space
and people don't remember you and a

00:12:57.715 --> 00:13:02.455
message associated with you verbatim,
what happens is that you take away gist.

00:13:02.785 --> 00:13:06.415
And if they take gist away from you and
gist from somebody else, and gist from

00:13:06.415 --> 00:13:10.465
somebody else, after 48 hours and beyond,
people will not know who said what.

00:13:10.975 --> 00:13:11.845
And what do they do?

00:13:11.845 --> 00:13:14.965
They tend to give credibility
to the more familiar source.

00:13:15.235 --> 00:13:18.895
And if you're not a familiar source,
that means you have spent that time

00:13:19.105 --> 00:13:23.485
creating somebody else's message and they
take the credit and that really hurts.

00:13:23.855 --> 00:13:24.694
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

00:13:25.084 --> 00:13:27.574
Carmen, I knew this was gonna
be a fantastic conversation.

00:13:27.574 --> 00:13:28.715
You did not disappoint.

00:13:28.834 --> 00:13:31.925
You've given me so many tools to
think about how I can communicate

00:13:31.925 --> 00:13:36.125
so that I get my 10% message
across and engage audiences more.

00:13:37.385 --> 00:13:39.755
Before we end, I like to ask
three questions, as you well know.

00:13:39.755 --> 00:13:43.055
One I create just for you, and the
other two are similar across everybody.

00:13:43.055 --> 00:13:43.895
Are you, you up for this?

00:13:43.955 --> 00:13:44.430
Carmen Simon: Sure, sure.

00:13:44.795 --> 00:13:48.725
Matt Abrahams: You do a masterful
job in your explanation of being

00:13:48.725 --> 00:13:53.495
very descriptive, of using lots of
examples, you practice very well the

00:13:53.495 --> 00:13:55.265
things that you teach and have studied.

00:13:55.415 --> 00:13:57.005
Is that something that
you really think through?

00:13:57.005 --> 00:13:58.085
Is that just natural?

00:13:58.085 --> 00:14:00.245
And how did you learn to do
that with so little effort?

00:14:00.830 --> 00:14:02.480
Carmen Simon: It's, um,
often a combination.

00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.840
Some things come naturally, but
some things have to come a bit

00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.860
more deliberately because in our
practice we help a lot of clients

00:14:10.070 --> 00:14:12.080
do the same for their audiences.

00:14:12.290 --> 00:14:15.560
In our business, as you very well
know, we have audiences with audiences.

00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:20.120
It's very easy to start speaking
about your own features and benefits

00:14:20.125 --> 00:14:23.930
and things that get you excited
at the expense of what this means

00:14:23.930 --> 00:14:25.835
to you, the secondary audience.

00:14:26.450 --> 00:14:31.250
So it's always a reminder to put
it through their lens, sit where

00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:34.670
they're sitting, wear a few of
their shoes, the customer's shoes,

00:14:34.670 --> 00:14:36.230
would be even more, more exciting.

00:14:36.785 --> 00:14:40.655
I really enjoy also examples because
if I have some good examples and

00:14:40.655 --> 00:14:44.375
stories, and you are a believer in
great stories, with each time that

00:14:44.375 --> 00:14:48.785
you speak, it's almost an extra
excitement moment for your own energy.

00:14:49.055 --> 00:14:53.495
So I'm hoping one of the practical lessons
from this conversation that we have, as

00:14:53.495 --> 00:14:57.395
you control your 10%, is to challenge
yourself to say, how can I maintain

00:14:57.395 --> 00:15:00.365
my own motivation and have that be up?

00:15:00.395 --> 00:15:03.365
Because people will sense
lack of energy very quickly.

00:15:03.665 --> 00:15:07.605
And I remember this interview
with the longest lasting Broadway

00:15:07.605 --> 00:15:09.135
show, the Phantom of the Opera.

00:15:09.195 --> 00:15:11.595
Some people think Cats, but it's
actually the Phantom of the Opera.

00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:15.915
So a journalist interviews the person
who has played in the show for so many

00:15:15.915 --> 00:15:20.295
years, and his first question is, how
many times have you done this role?

00:15:20.645 --> 00:15:23.865
1764 at the time of the interview.

00:15:24.165 --> 00:15:29.235
So this person had to repeat
his own 10% message 1700 times.

00:15:29.595 --> 00:15:31.785
How do you master that much repetition?

00:15:31.995 --> 00:15:36.255
For him it was highly sexual because every
two weeks he says we get a new Christine.

00:15:36.585 --> 00:15:39.585
So that's why, how he was
keeping his own motivation going.

00:15:39.645 --> 00:15:43.155
But the lesson for all of us is
look for some small elements.

00:15:43.155 --> 00:15:45.795
It could be the stories, it could
be the practical applications.

00:15:45.795 --> 00:15:48.285
It could be something very
concrete, but something has to

00:15:48.285 --> 00:15:49.395
keep your own motivation up.

00:15:50.175 --> 00:15:51.555
Matt Abrahams: I very
much appreciate that.

00:15:51.555 --> 00:15:55.335
I teach very similar content and have
for many years, and what helps me keep

00:15:55.335 --> 00:15:59.145
it fresh is reminding myself that it's
new for the other folks and what can

00:15:59.145 --> 00:16:01.155
I do to help land it best for them.

00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:05.060
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:16:05.420 --> 00:16:08.090
Carmen Simon: I know we could go for the
public figures, but here's one that's

00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:12.290
still in my mind years later, I wanna
say it's been at least five years.

00:16:12.680 --> 00:16:13.520
So picture it.

00:16:13.880 --> 00:16:18.410
I'm in Poland and I'm visiting the
Salt Mine, so I'm not a big tour group

00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:22.250
person, but the only way to go and
visit the thing is to join a group.

00:16:22.550 --> 00:16:28.105
And as I'm here at the entrance, I'm part
of maybe 10, 12 other people, and there

00:16:28.105 --> 00:16:33.355
comes a tour guide and the first thing she
says is, welcome to this three hour tour.

00:16:33.535 --> 00:16:36.895
And I just want to fall over because
I'm thinking not only am I not a tour

00:16:36.895 --> 00:16:40.885
group person, but three freaking hours
of this thing, there's just no way.

00:16:41.035 --> 00:16:43.705
And let me just tell you that
she was one of the most inspiring

00:16:43.735 --> 00:16:46.660
communicators I had seen in a long time.

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.050
I had to go all the way to a
Polish salt mine to find it.

00:16:50.260 --> 00:16:53.350
But she applied many of these techniques
that you and I are talking about and

00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:55.240
you very likely teach in your classes.

00:16:55.420 --> 00:16:57.700
The storytelling was just top notch.

00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:02.160
Not only just was it top notch in the
sense that stories existed, they were

00:17:02.160 --> 00:17:06.840
being said with good inflections and
the timing and the punchlines and the

00:17:06.840 --> 00:17:10.170
priming of it all, like before a good
story would already be ready, that

00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:12.090
something exciting is going to happen.

00:17:12.090 --> 00:17:14.190
Remember priming the brand
and getting it ready.

00:17:14.370 --> 00:17:17.940
So I think we can find
inspiration from so many people.

00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:21.180
Like next time, maybe you go to
Starbucks, pay attention to how

00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:24.540
that person might have a story and
tell it because they could be a good

00:17:24.540 --> 00:17:26.010
communicator that can inspire you.

00:17:26.355 --> 00:17:30.855
Matt Abrahams: I love finding great
communicators in average places.

00:17:31.035 --> 00:17:36.255
There was a gentleman who ran a barbecue
next to a car wash I used to go to.

00:17:36.465 --> 00:17:39.735
He was one of the best storytellers
I've ever heard, and I would

00:17:39.735 --> 00:17:42.735
just wash my car a lot because I
just liked connecting with him.

00:17:43.185 --> 00:17:43.935
Final question.

00:17:44.115 --> 00:17:48.435
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:17:48.735 --> 00:17:49.095
Carmen Simon: Ooh.

00:17:49.125 --> 00:17:54.105
So the three ingredients would be tied by
the one main message, control your 10%.

00:17:54.405 --> 00:17:56.475
Underneath that, what
would be the ingredients?

00:17:56.535 --> 00:17:57.825
Make sure you clarify it.

00:17:57.915 --> 00:18:02.415
If you know what your 10% message is,
your audience is also more likely to

00:18:02.415 --> 00:18:04.725
know, nebulous to you, nebulous to them.

00:18:05.025 --> 00:18:08.175
Number two, we are talking
about the element of surprise.

00:18:08.555 --> 00:18:11.975
Associate some of your messages,
supporting points for your 10%

00:18:11.975 --> 00:18:15.155
message with something that jolts
the brain out of its habitation.

00:18:15.425 --> 00:18:17.345
And number three, there is no secret.

00:18:17.345 --> 00:18:19.655
Repetition is the mother of memory.

00:18:19.805 --> 00:18:24.275
Come back to that 10% more often than
you feel comfortable with, and that's

00:18:24.275 --> 00:18:28.050
how you are deliberate about your 10%
message and you do not leave it to chance.

00:18:28.675 --> 00:18:33.175
Matt Abrahams: Clarify, surprise,
repeat, and in that you will really

00:18:33.175 --> 00:18:36.865
deliver on your 10% message and
make your message more memorable.

00:18:36.865 --> 00:18:41.305
And Carmen, our time together, I hope,
will live in the memories of all of our

00:18:41.305 --> 00:18:43.615
listeners, certainly etched in my memory.

00:18:43.645 --> 00:18:46.615
Thank you for your time and I'm
super glad we finally got to do this.

00:18:46.675 --> 00:18:47.575
Carmen Simon: Thank you so much everyone.

00:18:50.365 --> 00:18:52.135
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:18:52.135 --> 00:18:53.480
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:18:54.290 --> 00:18:56.900
To learn more about communication
and neuroscience, please listen

00:18:56.900 --> 00:18:59.060
to episode 39 with David Eagleman.

00:18:59.510 --> 00:19:03.575
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.

00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:05.990
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:08.540
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:19:09.020 --> 00:19:12.230
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00:19:14.840 --> 00:19:19.640
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