279. Rethinks: How to Leverage What People Already Want

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: From making ideas stick
to magic moments to unsticking processes,

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Dan Heath has helped me and people
around the world to be more effective

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in their communication and lives.

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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to this Rethinks episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

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I'm excited to open up our vast
vault of past episodes to highlight

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the insights and input of Dan Heath.

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Listen in as Dan helps us to be
more persuasive and effective.

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When it comes to effectiveness and our
communication, it can benefit us to

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take a step back and appreciate the
systems that influence what we do and

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to look for the leverage points to
maximize the resources we bring to bear.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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I am really looking forward
to speaking with Dan Heath.

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Dan is a number one New York Times
bestselling co-author and author of

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six books including Power of Moments,
Decisive, Switch, and Made to Stick.

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Several of his books he co-wrote
with his brother Chip, who

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he interviewed in episode 49.

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Dan also hosts the award-winning podcast.

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What It's Like To Be.

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Dan's latest book is Reset: How
to Change What's Not Working.

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Welcome, Dan.

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I am a huge fan of your work.

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Thanks so much for being here.

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Dan Heath: Thank you, Matt.

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It's a, it's an honor to be on the show.

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I'm a follower.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

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Shall we get started?

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Dan Heath: Let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: I've enjoyed all of your
books, but Made to Stick, which focuses

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on how to get ideas to stick in a world
of so much information, and Switch,

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which is all about effective persuasion,
continue to have a profound influence

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on my life and in my communication.

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I asked your brother, Chip,
when he was on the same question

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I'd like to start with for you.

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Can you share with us one powerful
takeaway from each of those books

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that still impact your life?

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Dan Heath: Yes, and I guess
we can compare answers.

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I'm not sure what he said,
so we'll have to find out.

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Memory lane, Made to Stick.

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Here's one takeaway, and I doubt this
will come as a surprise to any of your

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listeners, but the power of storytelling,
and I think that's probably a familiar

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enough lesson that I need not harp on it.

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But what may be interesting is in
the book we make the case that the

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reason stories are so powerful is they
have these kind of extraordinary twin

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powers of simulation and inspiration.

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So in other words, you go to the
movie to see a visual story and

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when the protagonist is in trouble,
your pulse quickens, right?

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Which is just a fundamentally weird thing.

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That's the power of simulation.

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You are, in a sense, experiencing what the
protagonist of a story is experiencing.

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Same thing is true for more
organizational forms, though.

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You tell a story of some customer who
got an extraordinary service experience.

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As another employee hearing that
story, you're able to simulate

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what if it had been me doing that?

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And that brings us also to the
second power of inspiration.

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You don't just live
temporarily in that story.

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You naturally start to think, Hey,
if they can do that, what can I do?

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It's a spark for action.

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And I think that's one of the
reasons why stories are such

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profound vehicles for communication.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

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Storytelling is really powerful.

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I want to hear about what
you take away from Switch.

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Dan Heath: I would say the number
one thing that I still routinely talk

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about, and in fact it's been prominent
for me, that I brought it back as a

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chapter in my new book, and that's
the notion of studying bright spots.

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So this is a very simple idea, which
is that psychology says that we

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tend to dwell on what's not working.

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The problems, the emergencies,
the negative aspects of

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the data we're looking at.

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So we get employee engagement surveys
back and what do we look at first?

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What's wrong?

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Who's disengaged?

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What are the, oh, the scores are dropped.

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Oh, no.

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There's a crisis.

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Like our, our attention immediately
goes to the problems, but in that same

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engagement data, there was a tale of
employees on the positive end, and

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no one ever says, Hey, wait a second.

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What's going on there?

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Why are those employees so happy?

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Why are they so engaged?

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If we can get to the bottom of what
makes them so satisfied, so purposeful,

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maybe we'll learn things that would
help shift the curve for everyone.

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It's like we treat success
with a kind of relief.

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We're like, oh, okay,
that's working, good.

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'Cause that frees me up to go spend more
time where the problems are, and we make

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the case in Switch that's backwards.

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That there is so much that we can
learn that is practical and hopeful

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simply by obsessing about what is
working as much as we naturally

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obsess about what's not working.

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Matt Abrahams: It's interesting, right?

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I think there's a human tendency just
to focus on the negative and looking at

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that positive can be very insightful.

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You can look for patterns and trends
that you can adopt and adapt to.

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I wanna come back to storytelling because
one of the things that really impresses

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me in your work is, not only do you talk
about story and analyze story, but you're

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actually a really good storyteller.

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Can you give us a little insight
into your process for one, thinking

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about the stories that you tell in
your books and when you speak on your

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podcast, but also the process about
how to craft and deliver those stories,

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because that's equally as powerful?

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Dan Heath: It is the heart of what I
do and what takes the most time out

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of everything I work on as a writer.

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So maybe what I should do, let me
just tell a story from the book and

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then talk a little bit about, just
gesticulate at it and tell, tell

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what my intentions were in using it.

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So the very first story in Reset
is about the receiving area at the

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Northwestern Memorial Hospital.

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So this is the part of the hospital
that takes in packages, gets them

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delivered to their ultimate destination.

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And at the point when the story starts, it
takes them an average of three days to get

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packages delivered within the hospital.

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UPS might get some medicine across the
country in a day or two, and then to get

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the package from the basement to like
the third floor takes another three days.

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So it's just crazy, but it's been
crazy as long as anyone can remember.

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It is something that
everyone's adapted to.

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They're not dumb people.

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They're not lazy people.

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They have just always lived in
a system where it takes three

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days to get these packages out.

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So this is expensive.

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They're having medications
expire in the box.

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They're having people over order
'cause they want to dodge this

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chaos of the receiving area.

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They have people trying to make side deals
with FedEx drivers to come directly to the

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third floor and bypass the receiving area.

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So into this mess, comes a
new person named Paul Suett.

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And if we just freeze there for a second.

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So what is this story doing?

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Number one, just observe that there
is nothing naturally compelling

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about this topic area, right?

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There is not, there's no sex, there is
no violence, there are no celebrities.

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It, it is the most
boring imaginable domain.

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Yet there are universal themes here
that kind of get us on the hook.

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Like these were the
pariahs of the hospital.

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All of a sudden implicitly
we're rooting for them, right?

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And then this new guy comes in and
you wonder what is he gonna do?

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There's, there's a
detective story element.

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What is he gonna do to untangle this mess?

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah, you build that
curiosity, but also when you were

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describing the problem, you didn't
just itemize the different things.

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You actually really reinforced it.

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I love the point where you said,
Hey, UPS can do it in a day or two.

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That really adds a, a
magnifier to what's coming.

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So I, I appreciated that part.

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Dan Heath: So Paul Suett comes
in, he's our protagonist.

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We talked about simulation
and inspiration, right?

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So now we're walking in Paul Suett shoes.

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First thing he does is he says,
what problems can I solve for you?

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What's getting in your way?

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And so the team's giving him a laundry
list of complaints and obstacles.

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Some of them quite mundane, like the
wheels on the carts that we push around

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are sometimes real stuck and jangly.

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So Suett says, instantly, we'll get you
new carts, new wheels, whatever you need.

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He's trying to just show
them that he's on their team.

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He's not the know-it-all coming into
quote unquote fix things, and he

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invites them into the detective work.

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So every day for an hour a day, 12 days
in a row, they stop what they're doing,

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and they just walk the line from where
the packages come in through all the

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stations to the eventual destination.

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They're noticing things.

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What's delaying operations,
what's blocking us?

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The number one thing that pops out of
this process is they have unwittingly used

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batch processes where they are not needed.

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We all use batch process.

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Nobody runs a single sock in the
washer and dryer, and nobody runs

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a single spoon in the dishwasher.

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So we get the value of batch processes,
but they were doing this to a fault.

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So the idea was let's wait until a bunch
of packages build up on the receiving

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dock, and then we'll do the scanning
into inventory all at once, like boop,

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that'll be quote unquote efficient.

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But what Suett helped them realize
is that there was no natural

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organic reason to have these delays.

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That, as he said, the system should flow
like a river and we should be able to

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take a package and have it flow along
and we should be removing friction,

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removing obstacles from its way.

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And so it's like this ah-ha
experience they set about completely

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changing the way they work.

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Within 12 weeks, they're delivering
90% of the packages in one day.

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Something nobody thought
imaginable, much less practical.

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People start visiting the receiving
area to learn what they've done.

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And so again, if you zoom out of the story
for a second, there is zero of natural

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intrinsic value in any of these details.

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I mean, I said the, the phrase
batch processes, and you didn't

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immediately go to sleep, right?

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Which is, that's the
power of story, right?

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Is once we see a protagonist
and a challenge and some stakes

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that matter, like we're in it.

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Matt Abrahams: But with that batch
processing, you did something I

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think, which is very masterful,
is you didn't define it.

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You didn't say, here's
what a batch process is.

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'Cause many people know what it
is, but they don't know that term.

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But you just said, we don't wash one sock.

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We don't put one spoon in the dishwasher.

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That was a great way of explaining
something without actually breaking it

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down and saying, now I'm explaining it.

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You do a great job of hooking
us in and diagnosing and

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describing for us what you do.

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I'm curious, how do
you find these stories?

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How did you find Paul Suett?

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Did you know him?

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Did somebody point you to him?

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Did you, were you in that hospital?

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How did you find that story?

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Dan Heath: This is the most frustrating
and rewarding aspect of the work is the

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majority of the way I spend my time as
a writer is finding stories like that.

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I spend a lot of time figuring out
what am I trying to say to the reader?

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How am I gonna arm them with principles
to make their life or their work better?

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That's part one.

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And then part two is how can I hang
those principles on stories that are

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more compelling than me just yammering
on about systems and operations and so

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forth, and it is like panning for gold.

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I mean, you've probably
experienced this too.

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There is no reliable process
for finding great stories.

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It is just, you gotta go shake the
trees every day, and then the next

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day you wake up and you do it again.

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This particular story was written up in
a business school case, and there was

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a very heavy operation spin on it, but
there was so much that was interesting

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in the details that my team and I, we
decided to re-report the whole thing.

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So I, one of my colleagues actually flew
to, uh, Evanston and met with Paul Suett

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and saw the operations and took pictures.

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And in that case it was like
taking a different spin on a story

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someone else had already spotted.

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In a lot of other cases in the book,
it was just a byproduct of you have

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10 conversations to get down to
that one story that really connects.

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Matt Abrahams: I like though that you
start with an idea, a goal of what

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you're trying to achieve, and the goal
is to really help people and to clearly

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explain it and then find stories and
other tools that can help get that across.

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And I think a lot of people skip
that step and they just try to

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jump to the information without
having a clear goal upfront.

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Dan Heath: Yeah.

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For me, stories are just like
a vessel to get messages across

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in a reader friendly way.

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So it's like what that Northwestern story
did for me at the start of the book, was

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it just it brought to bear a bunch of
themes that even people that are not in

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hospital receiving areas can recognize.

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What is it like to be part of a system
that's stuck and what is it like to

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endure subpar performance but feel
like you're powerless to affect it.

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And you know, and have other people in the
hospital judge you, you know, the pariahs

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of the hospital was a quote that came out.

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And what is it like to be able to undo
that by finding leverage points and

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complicated systems and seeing how things
can change, actually surprisingly quickly,

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if you find the right places to push.

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Matt Abrahams: So it really sets
expectations for what's to come, not

00:12:45.490 --> 00:12:49.600
just in terms of what you'll be talking
about in the book, but how the reader

00:12:49.660 --> 00:12:55.240
or listener will be engaged and how we
set our audience's expectations upfront

00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:56.830
can really make a big difference.

00:12:57.315 --> 00:13:00.285
One of the things that frustrates
me so much is speakers or people

00:13:00.285 --> 00:13:02.505
who run meetings who start by
saying, I want this to be very

00:13:02.505 --> 00:13:04.455
engaging and get you all involved.

00:13:04.455 --> 00:13:06.615
And then they talk at you for 45 minutes.

00:13:06.615 --> 00:13:11.295
What you do in your books, and in this
example, is you get us engaged from the

00:13:11.295 --> 00:13:13.755
get go, and that brings us along with you.

00:13:14.055 --> 00:13:16.185
I wanna explore some
concepts in your new book.

00:13:16.575 --> 00:13:21.345
You talk about how we can break free
from the inertia that keeps us doing

00:13:21.345 --> 00:13:23.715
the same things we've always done.

00:13:24.069 --> 00:13:27.850
In essence, you suggest we find
leverage points that help us break

00:13:27.850 --> 00:13:32.380
these patterns or habits or just
the way it's always been approach.

00:13:32.650 --> 00:13:36.610
Can you explain what leverage points
are and provide some examples and

00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:40.560
talk about how we can actually use
them to affect the change we want?

00:13:41.170 --> 00:13:45.060
Dan Heath: Leverage points are an absolute
core theme of the book, and they are

00:13:45.060 --> 00:13:50.010
defined as places where a little bit of
effort yields a disproportionate return.

00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:54.150
Because in complex systems, we
can't fix everything at once.

00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:56.130
We can't fix most things.

00:13:56.130 --> 00:14:00.720
We have to place our bets, and so about
half the book is dedicated to how do

00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:05.250
you find these elusive, magical leverage
points where a little bit goes a long way.

00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:08.280
I want to tell, most of
the book is organizational.

00:14:08.280 --> 00:14:10.080
So let me just say that explicitly.

00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.540
I don't want to give people the
wrong impression, but I want to tell

00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:16.110
a personal story 'cause I think it,
it captures the leverage point idea.

00:14:16.530 --> 00:14:19.500
It's a story about a couple's
therapist named Laura Heck.

00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:24.180
And so if you just put yourself in
her shoes for a second, every day her

00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:30.270
calendar is full of married couples or, or
couples on the brink of divorce that are

00:14:30.270 --> 00:14:32.130
at the worst ebb of their relationship.

00:14:32.280 --> 00:14:33.240
Everything is wrong.

00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:35.970
They may hate each other,
they may resent each other.

00:14:36.300 --> 00:14:37.800
There are a million things wrong.

00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:43.200
The history goes back for years, and you
see them for one hour a week out of 168.

00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:47.640
Talk about not being able to
change much of the equation, right?

00:14:47.790 --> 00:14:49.890
You have to find a leverage point.

00:14:49.890 --> 00:14:54.749
How else could you possibly affect
something as fraught as a marriage

00:14:54.749 --> 00:14:56.550
on the cusp of divorce in one hour?

00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:58.410
So Laura Heck does this thing.

00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:02.010
She has this activity, she
calls sticky note appreciations.

00:15:02.010 --> 00:15:06.510
And the idea is you put a sticky note
pad by your toothbrush holder in the

00:15:06.510 --> 00:15:09.930
bathroom and as you brush your teeth,
'cause you're, you know, you're gonna

00:15:09.930 --> 00:15:12.030
be doing that twice a day and you
got nothing else to do while you're

00:15:12.030 --> 00:15:16.800
brushing, you just pick up a pen, you
write down something that your partner

00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:18.450
did that you appreciated that day.

00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:22.110
It might be something quite small like,
thanks for making coffee this morning, or

00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:24.720
thanks for talking to John about college.

00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.390
He really appreciates your
perspective, whatever it is.

00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.090
And then you put it on the
mirror for your partner to find.

00:15:30.630 --> 00:15:36.630
And she says, the point of this activity
is really not to give those little

00:15:36.630 --> 00:15:39.569
bursts of happiness that we all get when
someone says something nice about us,

00:15:39.569 --> 00:15:41.459
that's great, but it's not the point.

00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:49.079
The point, as she said, was to build
a lens where you start to scan your

00:15:49.079 --> 00:15:53.100
partner's behavior for the positive
things instead of what has become an

00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:55.915
instinctive negative approach, right?

00:15:56.064 --> 00:15:58.465
The reason you're in therapy is
because now when you look at your

00:15:58.465 --> 00:16:01.944
partner, you see the conflict
and you see the disappointments,

00:16:01.944 --> 00:16:03.295
and you see the betrayals.

00:16:03.805 --> 00:16:06.505
And so this little silly, sticky
note activity is a way of saying,

00:16:06.505 --> 00:16:10.645
wait a second, there's positive
there too if we're alert for it.

00:16:10.645 --> 00:16:11.995
If we're conscious about it.

00:16:12.355 --> 00:16:17.040
And so with that one hour a week, back
to the idea of leverage points, she is

00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:21.240
slowly transforming the way they see
each other in a way that could open the

00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.400
door to bring the relationship back.

00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:25.530
And I just, I admire
that approach so much.

00:16:26.310 --> 00:16:30.660
Matt Abrahams: So it's finding
these key moments or opportunities

00:16:30.750 --> 00:16:33.000
that can really bring big change.

00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.000
So it's not that you're writing
something on a sticky note while

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.970
you're frothing at the mouth brushing
your teeth, it's the fact that you're

00:16:39.180 --> 00:16:43.050
changing your perspective in that
moment that might itself become a habit.

00:16:43.050 --> 00:16:46.355
And we can look for those points in both
our personal and our professional lives.

00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:48.780
So this notion of leverage
points is important.

00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:53.610
Something else you talk about
is the idea of wasted resources

00:16:53.610 --> 00:16:55.350
that happen in organizations.

00:16:55.590 --> 00:16:58.830
Can you share with us what you mean
by wasted resources and what are some

00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:03.810
ways that we can make those resources
not wasted to really leverage how they

00:17:03.810 --> 00:17:05.550
can help us to use the other concept?

00:17:06.090 --> 00:17:10.740
Dan Heath: So this is the second half
of Reset is the first half is devoted

00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:14.550
to what are the leverage points, which
is really about aim, like where do you

00:17:14.610 --> 00:17:16.319
aim if you're trying to change things.

00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:20.115
And then the second half is about if
you want to push in a new direction,

00:17:20.115 --> 00:17:21.765
you have to have fuel to do it.

00:17:22.095 --> 00:17:23.505
And that means resources.

00:17:23.925 --> 00:17:27.135
And then everybody freaks out 'cause
well, we don't have extra resources.

00:17:27.555 --> 00:17:30.645
And so the departure point of the
second half is what if you need

00:17:30.645 --> 00:17:34.575
resources to push in your new direction
for change, but you can't just bring

00:17:34.575 --> 00:17:36.225
resources off the sidelines, right?

00:17:36.225 --> 00:17:39.825
You don't have just satchels of
cash standing by for new projects.

00:17:40.125 --> 00:17:44.955
And so one of the places where you can
quote unquote harvest resources is waste.

00:17:45.255 --> 00:17:48.405
Waste is usually talked about
in the context of efficiency.

00:17:48.735 --> 00:17:53.235
Like you want your factory to hum
along at 99.9% utilization or whatever.

00:17:53.535 --> 00:17:58.590
In this context, I'm thinking of waste
as if we can stop doing the things that

00:17:58.590 --> 00:18:02.970
don't add value for the customer, which
is a classic definition of waste from

00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:08.880
uh, Taiichi Ohno, then we can reuse
that effort, that material in a new way.

00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:14.565
Now, to get away from waste for a
second, I think the most important fuel

00:18:14.685 --> 00:18:16.515
for any change effort is motivation.

00:18:16.815 --> 00:18:22.575
Like the entire change war will be
fought on the battlefield of motivation.

00:18:22.875 --> 00:18:26.925
And so in the book, I present this
framework, and I think it may be the

00:18:26.925 --> 00:18:31.935
simplest change framework ever created,
but I stand by it and it's the idea

00:18:31.935 --> 00:18:37.935
that if you imagine a Venn diagram in
your mind, and so one circle is what's

00:18:37.935 --> 00:18:40.754
required for us to succeed at change?

00:18:41.085 --> 00:18:44.774
The bundle of activities and goals
that we're gonna need to get to

00:18:44.774 --> 00:18:46.485
some new place, what's required?

00:18:46.815 --> 00:18:51.675
And then there's an intersecting
circle of what's desired today?

00:18:51.735 --> 00:18:55.215
So in other words, all of the people
that you work with, your colleagues,

00:18:55.215 --> 00:18:58.755
your direct reports, they have ideas
about how to make things better.

00:18:58.755 --> 00:19:02.025
If they were made boss for the day,
they'd all say, well, we're gonna do this.

00:19:02.025 --> 00:19:05.775
We're gonna do this, we're gonna, in
other words, there is latent motivation

00:19:05.775 --> 00:19:07.725
in the system that needs to be tapped.

00:19:08.025 --> 00:19:11.915
Wherever there is an intersection of
what's required and what's desired,

00:19:11.975 --> 00:19:13.985
that's where you start the change effort.

00:19:14.165 --> 00:19:17.645
And I say it's the simplest thing ever
recorded because a lot of times in

00:19:17.645 --> 00:19:21.814
change efforts we fall into this trap
of immediately going to persuasion,

00:19:22.145 --> 00:19:25.385
like, I've gotta get people to want what
I want, or else change is gonna fail.

00:19:25.385 --> 00:19:26.495
But hang on a second.

00:19:26.495 --> 00:19:27.935
It's not that that's a bad idea.

00:19:28.235 --> 00:19:32.794
Of course persuasion is a good idea, but
before you even get to persuasion, if

00:19:32.794 --> 00:19:36.965
you can just tap and unleash the energy
that's already there, you've already

00:19:36.965 --> 00:19:39.095
catapulted yourself toward success.

00:19:39.735 --> 00:19:43.365
Matt Abrahams: That model, although quite
simple, I have seen play out in my own

00:19:43.365 --> 00:19:45.225
life, in my relationship with my kids.

00:19:45.345 --> 00:19:48.675
'Cause a lot of what I find myself
doing is trying to persuade them.

00:19:48.825 --> 00:19:52.395
When I've gotten lucky and really
tapped into that latent desire and

00:19:52.395 --> 00:19:55.575
see their ideas and passion, that's
when things have really gotten going.

00:19:55.995 --> 00:19:58.035
Dan Heath: It, it just reminds me,
something that literally happened this

00:19:58.035 --> 00:20:01.785
weekend and I'd, I'd hadn't coded it
that way, but I see that it is now.

00:20:02.055 --> 00:20:05.535
I see that it's the Venn diagram in,
in my own mind, I was trying to get

00:20:05.535 --> 00:20:10.365
my young daughter to go with me on
a walk and I think to a child, like

00:20:10.395 --> 00:20:15.465
going on a walk with dad is just
like way down Maslow's hierarchy.

00:20:15.705 --> 00:20:20.055
And then I realized she likes to get
this weird iced tea, it's called, uh,

00:20:20.085 --> 00:20:24.375
iced fireball from this coffee shop,
that's a perfect distance for us to walk.

00:20:24.375 --> 00:20:28.215
And so I was like, Hey, you want
to go and get an iced fireball and

00:20:28.215 --> 00:20:29.895
immediately she was like, oh yeah, I'm in.

00:20:30.465 --> 00:20:31.395
And so it's okay.

00:20:31.395 --> 00:20:35.625
That's what was desired, that was
the latent desire in the system, and

00:20:35.625 --> 00:20:38.865
there was overlap and shame on me
for not getting there immediately.

00:20:39.570 --> 00:20:42.659
Matt Abrahams: I love this
idea of trying to find waste.

00:20:42.659 --> 00:20:46.110
In other words, where there's this
potential, it's like potential energy

00:20:46.110 --> 00:20:47.550
and you just have to tap into it.

00:20:47.850 --> 00:20:48.870
Dan Heath: That's a great phrase for it.

00:20:48.870 --> 00:20:54.209
It is potential energy and we spend so
much time browbeating people with the

00:20:54.209 --> 00:20:57.929
vision of change and get on board, and I'm
trying to get you to buy in and, and we

00:20:57.929 --> 00:21:02.260
just never ask the basic question, what
would you want today if it was your plan?

00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:06.730
And look, the obvious, I think, objection
to the Venn diagram thing is it's never

00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:08.379
gonna be a perfect overlap, right?

00:21:08.379 --> 00:21:11.800
It's never gonna be just a perfect
coincidence where everything

00:21:11.800 --> 00:21:14.530
that you'll have to do for
change corresponds perfectly to

00:21:14.530 --> 00:21:15.879
everything that people want today.

00:21:16.060 --> 00:21:20.680
But, and this is another key theme in the
book, the engine of change is progress.

00:21:21.755 --> 00:21:24.215
And progress changes minds.

00:21:24.815 --> 00:21:28.235
People start out skeptical of change
'cause they don't think it's gonna work.

00:21:28.565 --> 00:21:30.365
They don't think it's gonna
make their lives better.

00:21:30.365 --> 00:21:32.045
They, they think it's
just gonna be a nuisance.

00:21:32.045 --> 00:21:35.495
And then when they start to see
that boulder that's obstructed your

00:21:35.495 --> 00:21:38.495
path for so long, when they start
to see it inch in a new direction,

00:21:38.555 --> 00:21:39.965
it makes them feel differently.

00:21:40.025 --> 00:21:43.835
And so then new motivation comes
off the sidelines that was sparked

00:21:43.835 --> 00:21:47.375
by the progress that they could see
as a result of that initial push.

00:21:48.195 --> 00:21:52.784
Matt Abrahams: I love how you have
taken what is a very dry topic

00:21:52.784 --> 00:21:56.865
of systems and systems change,
and really found two key ideas.

00:21:56.865 --> 00:21:59.370
This notion of motivation and progress.

00:21:59.370 --> 00:22:03.480
Very psychological concepts that we
can apply to all the systems we find.

00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:08.010
We both write, we both do podcasting, but
we do a whole bunch of other things too.

00:22:08.310 --> 00:22:11.879
And there's systems that surround
everything we choose to do, in terms

00:22:11.879 --> 00:22:15.360
of the messages we craft, how we do
it, when we do it, the choices we make.

00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:21.304
What advice do you have for exploring
and maximizing the impact systems

00:22:21.304 --> 00:22:24.514
have or changing the systems
to help us be more efficient?

00:22:24.784 --> 00:22:27.034
How do systems play out in what we do?

00:22:27.844 --> 00:22:31.564
Dan Heath: So I had this weird moment
when one of the stories I was chasing

00:22:31.564 --> 00:22:33.365
boomeranged back to my own life.

00:22:33.665 --> 00:22:37.655
I was researching a story about the San
Francisco 49ers, and there's a guy named

00:22:37.655 --> 00:22:41.495
Moon Javaid, one of the top executives
that was in charge of the fan experience

00:22:41.495 --> 00:22:42.875
of people coming out to the games.

00:22:43.205 --> 00:22:47.080
And at one point, he and his boss
start asking themselves, Hey, we

00:22:47.080 --> 00:22:51.190
take these surveys of fans and
then whatever they're complaining

00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:52.960
about, we fix it for the next game.

00:22:53.320 --> 00:22:56.650
We don't have that many games
in a season, so it, it's slow.

00:22:56.650 --> 00:23:00.910
Like, could we ever imagine
getting feedback within the game

00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:02.410
so we can fix things faster?

00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:06.610
And so that's a theme in the book, is
this idea of accelerating learning,

00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:11.370
which is a way, in essence of
marshaling more resources to push in

00:23:11.370 --> 00:23:13.170
our change direction, back to that idea.

00:23:13.530 --> 00:23:16.380
So anyway, Moon Javaid has this
epiphany when he is in the airport

00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:20.250
one day and he sees people using
those happy or not terminals where

00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:24.720
you punch a green smiley face or a red
frowny face, and he's like, oh my God.

00:23:25.095 --> 00:23:26.385
That could work for us.

00:23:26.595 --> 00:23:30.225
And so fast forward in the story, he
becomes a pilot customer for happy or not.

00:23:30.225 --> 00:23:36.255
They put out 150 terminals by bathrooms,
by hotdog stands, by concessions.

00:23:36.555 --> 00:23:41.025
And so if they get like a certain density
of red frowny faces in a certain period of

00:23:41.025 --> 00:23:42.945
time, they know ah-ha, something's wrong.

00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.730
There's a clogged toilet at A8, or the
concession stand, they're, they're outta

00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:52.740
hotdog buns, and so they can rush within
the game and fix the problems far faster.

00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:56.190
Now it takes minutes to fix
a problem instead of a week.

00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:59.700
So it's this huge victory
from accelerating learning.

00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:04.965
So I started to think about that story
and I was like, how could I do that in

00:24:04.965 --> 00:24:07.335
my writing, which seems weird, right?

00:24:07.335 --> 00:24:09.645
I mean, where am I gonna put a
happy or not terminal, right?

00:24:10.755 --> 00:24:15.735
And then later it occurred to me I could
learn from Agile, the discipline used by

00:24:15.735 --> 00:24:19.605
many software and design firms, where you
do something and you get some customer

00:24:19.605 --> 00:24:22.845
feedback, and then you tweak it and,
and iterate and get some more feedback.

00:24:23.145 --> 00:24:24.285
Rapid prototyping.

00:24:24.285 --> 00:24:24.705
That's it.

00:24:24.735 --> 00:24:28.065
And so I said, what would it
look like if I wrote that way?

00:24:28.395 --> 00:24:30.285
And so I did this thing
I'd never done before.

00:24:30.285 --> 00:24:31.305
This is my sixth book.

00:24:31.305 --> 00:24:34.185
This is the only book I've even
close to use this process for.

00:24:34.485 --> 00:24:37.065
The version I turned into
the publisher was version 6.

00:24:37.205 --> 00:24:42.250
So I had 5 full rounds of
reader feedback in the meantime.

00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:44.740
The first was so crude,
it wasn't even in writing.

00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.709
It was just me on video, like
pontificating about different

00:24:47.709 --> 00:24:49.990
topics, and I was just curious
what would resonate with people.

00:24:50.290 --> 00:24:55.750
And it was so different and so fun, and
it gave me such a richer flow of the

00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:58.899
readers thinking that, I guess people
would be the judge, but I really think

00:24:58.899 --> 00:25:01.030
it bore fruit in the final product.

00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.600
However good or bad Reset is today,
let me assure you, it would've

00:25:04.600 --> 00:25:08.145
been a lot worse had I not gotten
5 rounds of reader feedback,

00:25:08.745 --> 00:25:12.495
Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
you sharing how you can explore

00:25:12.495 --> 00:25:14.925
the systems that you're part
of and look to change them.

00:25:15.135 --> 00:25:18.945
What you just described is something I
teach is minimally viable communication.

00:25:18.945 --> 00:25:22.475
We take the same principles from
minimally viable product design,

00:25:22.475 --> 00:25:24.004
Agile development and apply them.

00:25:24.245 --> 00:25:26.915
But rapid prototyping is
critical, I think, to getting

00:25:27.185 --> 00:25:28.774
any message out in the world.

00:25:28.774 --> 00:25:34.054
And the meta message of what you said
is look at the systems that you exist in

00:25:34.054 --> 00:25:37.355
and then see if there are ways that you
can adjust and adapt them to help you.

00:25:37.895 --> 00:25:40.385
I'd like to take this notion of
communication one step further.

00:25:40.625 --> 00:25:44.945
In these organizations, in these
collectives where they leverage the

00:25:44.945 --> 00:25:49.774
tools that you teach and write about,
what are your thoughts about how they

00:25:50.139 --> 00:25:54.930
communicate to the teams themselves
or across the organization about what

00:25:54.930 --> 00:26:00.450
they're doing, and help them provide
the motivation and demonstrate the

00:26:00.450 --> 00:26:02.220
progress that we talked about before?

00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:06.330
So it's one thing to do it, but I
can imagine a big leverage point is

00:26:06.330 --> 00:26:10.050
the way you communicate what you've
done to keep the momentum going.

00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:13.710
Any insights into what makes for
effective communication about

00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:14.850
the progress you're making?

00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:19.290
Dan Heath: Yes, and in fact, the
message was so clear, this came out of

00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:23.219
a conversation I had with the former
CEO of Home Depot named Frank Blake.

00:26:23.699 --> 00:26:26.669
It's so clear you could put it on a
bumper sticker, and Blake said, you

00:26:26.669 --> 00:26:29.520
get what you celebrate, full stop.

00:26:29.550 --> 00:26:31.080
You get what you celebrate.

00:26:31.229 --> 00:26:33.870
But Frank Blake lived that mantra.

00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:37.679
He would spend part of every Sunday
afternoon, I mean, the CEO one of the

00:26:37.679 --> 00:26:41.939
world's biggest companies spent his Sunday
writing individual thank you letters

00:26:41.939 --> 00:26:46.545
to people on his team, not just in some
generic atta boy, atta girl way, he would

00:26:46.545 --> 00:26:48.465
highlight specific things that they did.

00:26:48.735 --> 00:26:52.005
I heard about the way you dealt
with that customer in, in North

00:26:52.005 --> 00:26:53.085
Georgia, blah, blah, blah.

00:26:53.685 --> 00:26:57.195
One of the things that stuck with me
was he told this incredible story.

00:26:57.705 --> 00:27:02.625
So one of his strategic missions was to
improve customer service at Home Depot.

00:27:03.105 --> 00:27:05.415
He's got over a hundred
thousand employees.

00:27:05.445 --> 00:27:06.555
How do you change that?

00:27:07.425 --> 00:27:11.235
And at one point he had all the
store managers together at a

00:27:11.235 --> 00:27:14.070
conference in Vegas, and he had
an opportunity to speak to them.

00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:20.580
And he chose to tell one story about one
cashier that was from a store in Georgia.

00:27:21.270 --> 00:27:23.760
And so he is on stage and he says,
we had this cashier, who's been

00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:28.320
with us for years, and one day
she had an older gentleman come

00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:29.700
up with a cart full of lumber.

00:27:30.615 --> 00:27:33.525
And she asked him if he'd found
everything he needed okay.

00:27:33.525 --> 00:27:35.025
And he said, yes, I did.

00:27:36.015 --> 00:27:38.745
And then she was just gonna
make small talk to be nice.

00:27:38.745 --> 00:27:41.595
And she said, well, if you don't
mind me asking, what's your project?

00:27:41.595 --> 00:27:42.375
What are you working on?

00:27:43.035 --> 00:27:49.815
And the old man stopped and paused and
he said, since you asked, my grandson

00:27:49.815 --> 00:27:54.285
passed away recently and I've decided
that I wanted to build his casket.

00:27:54.825 --> 00:27:59.340
And the cashier immediately said,
sir, we're so sorry for your loss,

00:27:59.340 --> 00:28:02.550
and don't even think about pulling
out your wallet, this one's on us.

00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:05.580
And so Frank Blake said when he
told that story, you could have

00:28:05.580 --> 00:28:07.570
heard a pin drop in the room.

00:28:08.100 --> 00:28:12.075
And what he was after with that story is,
number one, it's obviously recognition

00:28:12.075 --> 00:28:15.975
for the particular cashier, but the
significance more broadly than that

00:28:15.975 --> 00:28:22.004
was he was reshaping their mental model
of what good customer service is like.

00:28:22.665 --> 00:28:28.455
You hear a lot of, you've gotta do the 5
S's, smile and blah, blah, blah, and all

00:28:28.455 --> 00:28:32.775
this kind of generic stuff that ends up in
employee rule books, and he's saying, no.

00:28:33.135 --> 00:28:37.500
This woman not only just gave stuff away
for free, which is mind blowing enough,

00:28:37.590 --> 00:28:39.030
she didn't even check with anybody.

00:28:39.179 --> 00:28:42.960
She didn't check with the supervisor to
ask whether it was okay to break protocol.

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.470
It was just instantly she knew what
the human thing to do would be.

00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:51.179
And that's what Frank Blake is signaling
to people, is if we want to be better

00:28:51.179 --> 00:28:55.695
at customer service, we need more
of that ethic, and so that's what he

00:28:55.695 --> 00:28:58.455
means by you get what you celebrate.

00:28:59.415 --> 00:29:03.225
Matt Abrahams: You've done a nice job of
tying back to the power of story signal,

00:29:03.255 --> 00:29:07.245
not just an emotional experience that
you connect with your audience, but it

00:29:07.245 --> 00:29:11.445
also shares what you aspire to be, right?

00:29:11.445 --> 00:29:14.325
And what can be, without
just itemizing and listing.

00:29:14.955 --> 00:29:16.365
We've talked a lot about your writing.

00:29:16.365 --> 00:29:19.695
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about
your podcasting, something I find

00:29:19.695 --> 00:29:21.165
very near and dear to my heart.

00:29:21.225 --> 00:29:25.845
You host the podcast, What It's Like
To Be, you've done lots of interviews

00:29:25.845 --> 00:29:27.975
with lots of really interesting folk.

00:29:27.975 --> 00:29:31.815
I'm curious, is there one thing
or two that you've taken away

00:29:31.815 --> 00:29:33.265
that has impacted your life?

00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.110
I certainly have learned a lot from
my guests that has fundamentally

00:29:37.110 --> 00:29:38.580
changed some of the things I do.

00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:41.730
I'm curious, is there something
that's impacted your life from

00:29:41.730 --> 00:29:43.020
somebody you've interviewed?

00:29:43.530 --> 00:29:47.520
Dan Heath: So for listeners, just
quickly, the show, the conceit is

00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:51.460
that in every episode I interview
someone from a different profession.

00:29:51.830 --> 00:29:56.745
A homicide detective or a
daycare owner or an NBA referee.

00:29:57.045 --> 00:29:59.805
And I just asked them a thousand
nosy questions about what it's like

00:29:59.805 --> 00:30:02.325
to do what they do and what makes
them happy and what makes them

00:30:02.325 --> 00:30:03.825
mad, and who do they fight with.

00:30:04.305 --> 00:30:07.785
And so this was a departure
for me because, as we've talked

00:30:07.785 --> 00:30:11.490
about, when I'm writing these
books, my books are not poetry.

00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:12.840
They're not literature.

00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:16.830
They're intended to help people do
specific things to make their lives

00:30:16.830 --> 00:30:20.700
or their work better, and so I have
this very practical minded hat on.

00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:23.520
If I'm interviewing someone for a
book, I'm listening for, what can I

00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:26.520
learn from Matt that I might be able
to help a hundred other people with.

00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:30.990
On the podcast though, I just kind
of want to walk in their shoes.

00:30:31.110 --> 00:30:36.490
I talked to two married truck drivers
who do long haul shifts together.

00:30:36.669 --> 00:30:40.419
I mean, they might be together for 6
weeks in a row on the road, and their

00:30:40.419 --> 00:30:44.320
lives are governed by 3 different
clocks that prescribe their behavior

00:30:44.320 --> 00:30:47.365
and they have to obsess about where
they're gonna park, 'cause parking's

00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:49.090
a huge deal when you have a big rig.

00:30:49.449 --> 00:30:51.059
And I talked to a cattle rancher.

00:30:51.329 --> 00:30:54.250
And some of the things she has to
worry about are poisonous weeds.

00:30:54.250 --> 00:30:56.710
The cows will eat the weeds and
get sick, so she's fighting this

00:30:56.710 --> 00:30:58.480
nonstop battle against the weeds.

00:30:58.510 --> 00:31:01.780
And mountain lions will occasionally
come in and try to eat her cattle

00:31:01.780 --> 00:31:05.770
and so she has a mountain lion hunter
that she can call like on speed

00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:06.710
dial to come out and deal with it.

00:31:06.910 --> 00:31:10.300
And I find that there's no
like direct application.

00:31:10.540 --> 00:31:13.360
I just think that there is
a lot of power and empathy.

00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:19.540
Like I think if we can understand our
fellow humans better and what they think

00:31:19.540 --> 00:31:24.150
about and what brings them joy and what
gives them a sense of purpose, I think

00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:28.290
it helps us appreciate them more, and it
seems like now is one of those times when

00:31:28.290 --> 00:31:30.425
we need that appreciation of difference.

00:31:31.260 --> 00:31:34.290
Matt Abrahams: It sounds to me like
a lesson you've learned or something

00:31:34.290 --> 00:31:37.860
that motivated you to do this was
this idea of empathy and curiosity.

00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:41.220
There's a really powerful concoction
that gets made when you combine those

00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:45.330
two together, and what your podcast
does is really helps us through your

00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:49.410
curiosity and through your empathy to
learn a lot, and, and I appreciate that.

00:31:49.515 --> 00:31:52.575
Well, before we end, I like
to ask three questions.

00:31:52.575 --> 00:31:55.305
One I create just for you,
and the other two are similar

00:31:55.305 --> 00:31:56.475
across everybody I interview.

00:31:56.475 --> 00:31:57.825
Are you up for these questions?

00:31:57.855 --> 00:31:58.395
Dan Heath: I'm ready.

00:31:58.395 --> 00:31:59.025
Let's do this.

00:31:59.295 --> 00:31:59.715
Matt Abrahams: All right.

00:31:59.715 --> 00:32:02.745
One of the books that you wrote
that really also had a big impact

00:32:02.745 --> 00:32:03.850
on me was The Power of Moments.

00:32:04.875 --> 00:32:10.545
I'm curious, is there anything you do in
your personal life to really spark some

00:32:10.545 --> 00:32:14.264
moments maybe for your family, your kids,
your friends, is there something that

00:32:14.264 --> 00:32:20.264
you took from that work that you do that
helps you and those you know and love?

00:32:20.685 --> 00:32:21.525
Dan Heath: Absolutely.

00:32:21.555 --> 00:32:27.375
The Power Moments is a book about the
disproportionate power of specific

00:32:27.375 --> 00:32:32.520
moments in our memories of experiences,
the way that, if you think about a, a

00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.990
family or a personal vacation from three
or four years ago, you don't load up

00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:39.750
the video of that experience in your
mind and play it end to end, right?

00:32:39.750 --> 00:32:40.950
A lot of it dissolves.

00:32:41.385 --> 00:32:45.105
And what you're left with are the
most significant moments, or in the

00:32:45.105 --> 00:32:46.815
parlance of the book, at the peaks.

00:32:47.205 --> 00:32:50.085
And, and so the kind of big
message of the book is we can

00:32:50.085 --> 00:32:52.155
be the authors of these peaks.

00:32:52.335 --> 00:32:55.335
Sometimes they just happen
by happenstance, but we can

00:32:55.335 --> 00:32:56.475
be intentional about it.

00:32:56.835 --> 00:33:00.615
And so like a couple of things that
I've learned from readers, actually,

00:33:01.005 --> 00:33:03.885
I had this one guy come up to me at a
conference and say he'd read the book

00:33:03.885 --> 00:33:05.415
and he'd tried something with his kids.

00:33:05.775 --> 00:33:08.295
He called it a perfect day exercise.

00:33:08.385 --> 00:33:09.735
So he had young kids like I do.

00:33:10.125 --> 00:33:15.735
He said, I want you to draw up your
perfect day on paper, like from when

00:33:15.735 --> 00:33:17.055
you wake up to when you go to bed.

00:33:17.835 --> 00:33:20.805
And if you don't fill it with
fantastical things like, oh, we're

00:33:20.805 --> 00:33:23.835
gonna fly to the moon for a picnic
or something, if, if you keep it

00:33:23.835 --> 00:33:27.015
real like your mom and I are really
gonna try to make this happen, we're

00:33:27.015 --> 00:33:28.485
gonna bring your perfect day to life.

00:33:28.935 --> 00:33:30.255
But he made them draw it out.

00:33:30.255 --> 00:33:32.835
He wanted them to put some thought
into it and they had to put together

00:33:32.835 --> 00:33:35.265
an agenda with times and, and events.

00:33:35.685 --> 00:33:38.205
And I was just so captivated by that idea.

00:33:38.205 --> 00:33:40.125
I immediately stole it for my own kids.

00:33:40.125 --> 00:33:42.465
And what happened with his kids
was exactly what happened with

00:33:42.465 --> 00:33:46.455
mine, which is you would think
that kids would be grandiose and

00:33:46.455 --> 00:33:48.345
they'd wanna do crazy things.

00:33:48.345 --> 00:33:49.515
They'd wanna spend a lot of money.

00:33:49.515 --> 00:33:53.925
And instead, it was the most
like heartwarming set of things.

00:33:54.254 --> 00:33:57.915
It was like my younger daughter
wanted to get up and have eggs and

00:33:57.915 --> 00:34:00.615
bacon and cinnamon rolls, which
is what we have every Sunday.

00:34:00.645 --> 00:34:02.955
It's not like that was a
weird or unusual request.

00:34:03.284 --> 00:34:05.355
And then she wanted to
take a bath in the morning.

00:34:05.534 --> 00:34:09.255
She wanted to take another bath at night,
and then she wanted to watch such and

00:34:09.255 --> 00:34:13.125
such a movie, and she wanted to have
a play date with such and such friend.

00:34:13.125 --> 00:34:16.215
And it was striking to me that
I think sometimes as parents,

00:34:16.215 --> 00:34:17.804
we may overcomplicate things.

00:34:18.314 --> 00:34:21.674
If I think about how do I create a
moment for my kids, maybe I'm thinking,

00:34:22.185 --> 00:34:25.759
oh, we need a bounce house, or I need
to have a rent a pony come out and,

00:34:25.844 --> 00:34:29.654
and if you just ask them, it turns
out that's not what perfect means.

00:34:29.654 --> 00:34:31.514
Perfect means something quite different.

00:34:31.964 --> 00:34:37.455
And so I've really enjoyed that aspect
of moment creation, just trusting

00:34:37.875 --> 00:34:41.610
the people that you care about
to articulate what perfect means.

00:34:42.150 --> 00:34:43.740
Matt Abrahams: That's a really
powerful lesson, and thank

00:34:43.740 --> 00:34:45.630
you, and how sweet to do that.

00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:49.380
And sometimes the most powerful
moment could be one that somebody

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.180
else suggests and not us.

00:34:51.690 --> 00:34:55.980
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:34:56.790 --> 00:34:59.880
Dan Heath: I would say the
author David Foster Wallace.

00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:01.290
I'm a huge fan of his.

00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:04.590
And I think I might be the only
person who's more a fan of his

00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:06.060
nonfiction than of his fiction.

00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:09.810
He's best known as a novelist and wrote
the great book Infinite Jest, which is

00:35:09.810 --> 00:35:11.550
about 20 pounds if you carry around.

00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:16.920
But he also wrote these just amazing
essays, like one of his essay collections

00:35:17.720 --> 00:35:22.035
is called A Supposedly Fun Thing I'd Never
Do Again, about a cruise that he took and

00:35:22.035 --> 00:35:26.355
he's, he's kind of an antisocial person,
so it was just hilarious to hear him riff

00:35:26.355 --> 00:35:28.095
on what it was like to go on a cruise.

00:35:28.365 --> 00:35:35.235
And what I admire about his style is he
just has this almost limitless curiosity

00:35:35.325 --> 00:35:43.215
about everything, about psychology, about
business about social norms and why they

00:35:43.215 --> 00:35:48.915
exist, and so he'll just follow these
kind of spiraling wormholes of curiosity.

00:35:49.185 --> 00:35:54.495
I admire the way that, that he
can get a point across and has

00:35:54.765 --> 00:35:56.895
complete control of language.

00:35:57.134 --> 00:36:00.314
He can throw out words you've never
even seen in your life and then

00:36:00.314 --> 00:36:03.674
the next sentence is just full of
the most up to the moment slang.

00:36:03.674 --> 00:36:06.105
Like he just has, he
has the full repertoire.

00:36:06.705 --> 00:36:12.645
Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that, and I
love that you respect somebody who has

00:36:12.645 --> 00:36:14.984
a way with words, but also storytelling.

00:36:15.495 --> 00:36:16.334
Final question.

00:36:16.875 --> 00:36:21.615
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:36:22.005 --> 00:36:23.925
Dan Heath: Okay, the recipe.

00:36:23.985 --> 00:36:25.605
All right, three steps.

00:36:25.605 --> 00:36:26.355
Let's do this.

00:36:26.475 --> 00:36:29.565
Number one, know what the most
important thing you need to

00:36:29.565 --> 00:36:31.065
leave the audience with is.

00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:34.890
What's the core message
in Made to Stick terms?

00:36:34.950 --> 00:36:38.370
Know your core message, and I think
the reason why people don't do that,

00:36:38.370 --> 00:36:41.460
even though it sounds commonsensical,
is because people, when you start

00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:44.580
putting the presentation together or
the memo, it's like you kind of wanna

00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:47.819
show off all the things you've learned
and all these insights you have, and

00:36:47.819 --> 00:36:49.980
you just get greedy with your ideas.

00:36:50.855 --> 00:36:54.545
But if we're gonna be respectful of the
audience and the way memories decay,

00:36:54.575 --> 00:36:57.995
like if we wanna have one thing that
endures in their head three weeks in the

00:36:57.995 --> 00:37:01.205
future after the point of communication,
like what would that one thing be?

00:37:01.535 --> 00:37:06.145
Second is, highlight the aspects of that
one thing that are uncommonsensical,

00:37:07.535 --> 00:37:09.005
common sense does not stick.

00:37:09.605 --> 00:37:13.355
Common sense by definition is
something that's already stuck.

00:37:13.685 --> 00:37:17.129
And if somebody hears something that
sounds like common sense, they're just

00:37:17.129 --> 00:37:21.180
gonna ignore it because it in no way
reshapes their view of the world or

00:37:21.180 --> 00:37:22.830
their opinions or their perspectives.

00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:26.250
So you've gotta figure out what
about your message is uncommon sense.

00:37:26.250 --> 00:37:29.339
And if the answer is it nothing, then
you got the wrong core message, right?

00:37:29.339 --> 00:37:31.830
There's something that made you think
that core message was important.

00:37:31.830 --> 00:37:35.879
What is it and how does it clash with
the way your audience thinks right now?

00:37:36.180 --> 00:37:38.790
And then third, this will come
as no surprise for anybody who's

00:37:38.790 --> 00:37:42.029
listened to this interview is
find a story to wrap that in.

00:37:42.645 --> 00:37:45.395
So do you want a core message
that's uncommonsensical,

00:37:46.575 --> 00:37:48.465
that's wrapped up in a story.

00:37:49.125 --> 00:37:50.115
That's my recipe.

00:37:50.595 --> 00:37:51.195
How'd I do?

00:37:51.825 --> 00:37:53.175
Matt Abrahams: You did great.

00:37:53.175 --> 00:37:57.135
Not just at sharing the three, but at
summarizing the three at the end, which

00:37:57.135 --> 00:38:01.635
is what I often do and you've done a
reset for me, so I don't have to do that.

00:38:02.175 --> 00:38:06.855
I appreciate Dan, not only your
time, but your stories, and for role

00:38:06.855 --> 00:38:11.415
modeling exactly what it is that
you teach, not just in your new book

00:38:11.415 --> 00:38:13.155
Reset, but across all your books.

00:38:13.365 --> 00:38:15.705
Thank you for your time and
thank you for your insights.

00:38:15.975 --> 00:38:16.935
Dan Heath: Hey, thanks so much, Matt.

00:38:16.935 --> 00:38:17.595
It's been a pleasure.

00:38:19.905 --> 00:38:22.515
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another Rethinks episode of

00:38:22.515 --> 00:38:27.195
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast
To learn more from Dan, tune into

00:38:27.195 --> 00:38:29.835
episode 49 with his brother Chip Heath.

00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.680
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.680
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.049
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.710
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:38:43.890 --> 00:38:45.990
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:38:46.200 --> 00:38:49.410
Also, follow us on LinkedIn,
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00:38:49.859 --> 00:38:54.359
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Fast Talk Smart Learning Community.

00:38:54.779 --> 00:38:59.450
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00:38:59.730 --> 00:39:03.150
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00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.250
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