276. Dead End Goals: Are Your Ambitions Actually Leading You Toward Meaning?

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Matt Abrahams: Many of us are
searching for the meaning of life,

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but what is the meaning of meaning?

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My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I'm thrilled to be
rejoined by Arthur Brooks of

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Harvard's Business School.

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Arthur studies and teaches courses on
leadership, wellbeing, and happiness.

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He has authored numerous books,
including Building the Life You Want:

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The Art and Science of Getting Happier
with Oprah Winfrey, and he has his

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own podcast, which I really enjoy,
called Office Hours with Arthur Brooks.

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Arthur's newest book is
The Meaning of Your Life.

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Welcome, Arthur.

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I'm really glad to be
talking with you once again.

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Congrats on your new
book and on your podcast.

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I and our listeners have benefited
from our first conversation.

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I look forward to the second one.

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Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt.

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It's wonderful to be back on the show.

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Matt Abrahams: Thanks.

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Shall we get started?

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Arthur Brooks: Yeah, let's do that.

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Matt Abrahams: A lot of your work
focuses on helping strivers, of

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which I am an A plus specimen.

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Can you start by defining what you
mean by a striver and why folks

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like me struggle with things like
fulfillment, meaning, happiness?

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Arthur Brooks: The, a word that
has entered the American lexicon

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over the past 10 years is slacker.

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People hear about slackers, you
know, and everybody worries about

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their adult kids slacking and living
forever in the basement and all that.

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And I got that.

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But that's actually not the
biggest problem that I see.

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I mean, I teach at a fancy business
school like you, and we don't, there's

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no slackers at the Graduate School of
Business at Stanford or the Harvard

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Business School, there's no slackers.

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And what I came to understand is that
to not be a slacker isn't enough.

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On the contrary, I see a different
kind of pathology among my students

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who are just absolutely addicted to
success, very, very afraid of failure.

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They have a propensity toward
workaholism, and that's what

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I call the striver syndrome.

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And so when I say striver, I say
with a certain amount of admiration.

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But I also understand that for you
and me, as senior striver's, and

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the junior strivers that we teach,
it's not always an easy life.

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It's actually not the best
way to live necessarily.

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And part of the reason is because
happiness, which is, we've talked

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about before, is a combination of
enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.

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For strivers, the enjoyment of
life can be really quite low.

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Satisfaction with accomplishments is
through the roof, but enjoyment can

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be really quite low and they don't
understand how to pursue proper leisure.

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They often marginalize relationships.

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And so I have to talk to strive
about how to learn how to be fully

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alive, how to be happier people.

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That's why I specialize,
I'm the striver whisperer.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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And I appreciate being called a
senior striver because you're right.

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My students, I see them on the same
path that I'm on, and I'm trying to

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encourage them to take time, to smell
the roses, to connect with people.

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And yet, for me personally,
it's so hard to do.

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Let's take a step back and ground
ourselves in the terms that we're using.

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When you were previously on, you
defined what you mean by meaning.

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Can you remind us of the three
components of meaning, and then you

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added, in this new book, this notion
of presence and searching, and I'm

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hoping you can help us understand
how those fit into the equation.

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Arthur Brooks: Yeah, for sure.

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So psychologists, and philosophers
for that matter, they really break

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meaning into three deep questions.

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The what is the meaning of life is
really three why questions of life.

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Number one is why do things happen the way
they do, which is the idea of coherence.

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You have to have a concept of why things
are actually happening around you.

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Some people, their sense of coherence
comes from their religious faith.

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Some people it comes from science.

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I personally am a traditionally religious
person and I'm a scientist, so great.

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And as was my dad.

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My dad was a PhD biostatistician.

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He thought that God created
the distribution of events.

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I asked him one time, I
said, dad, what are miracles?

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And he said, long tail events.

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'Cause he thought that God created
randomness, which is one of the beautiful

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things about the universe, he thought.

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The second part of meaning
is purpose, and purpose and

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meaning are not the same thing.

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We use them interchangeably,
but that's not right.

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Purpose is a sub component of
meaning, which is goals and direction.

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It's the question, why am
I doing what I'm doing?

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Where am I going with my life?

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And you have to have an answer to that.

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If you don't, then you're
just going in circles.

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You're wasting your time, you're
frittering away your time.

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Which is why leisure, properly understood,
is so critically important because

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you're just sitting on a beach and
chilling or getting drunk or scrolling.

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TikTok reels.

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That means there's no purpose.

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The reason it makes you depressed
is because it gives you a sense

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of purposelessness, which takes
away your sense of meaning.

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The third part is significance, which
is like, why does my life matter?

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To whom does my life matter?

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And if you don't know, or there is
nobody for whom your life matters,

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you're gonna feel insignificant, and
that's gonna make you feel horrible.

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It's gonna make you feel completely bereft
of meaning, which is why people need love.

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People need love so much because
they need to answer the significance

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question and significance question
is really part of meaning.

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Okay, then the next part that you
asked about is how do you measure this?

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In this case, there's really interesting
measurements to break the search for

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meaning into two parts, how actively
you are at searching for it and how

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successful you've been in finding it.

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So the first part is literally
called search, and the second

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part is called presence.

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And you know, based on a bunch of very
well validated, scientifically constructed

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survey, which is in the book by the
way, and on my website, people can find

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out how actively they're searching and
whether they've been successful in finding

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the presence of meaning in their lives.

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And they can actually get a score on that.

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And I can tell a lot about a
person on the basis of this.

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And so what I find that I've
got a pretty good sense of

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presence of meaning in my life.

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I should, I'm 61.

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But I'm super high in search, which is
why I'm a behavioral scientist because

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I'm always looking about what could
be actually better out there, which

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is not necessarily the most optimal
way to live, but everybody who reads

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this book, they'll know what meaning
is and where they are in their search.

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And that's really important because if
you're looking for anything in life,

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if you're looking for California, you
better know what California is and

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you better know where you are right
now or you're not gonna get there.

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Matt Abrahams: So the presence and
search anchor you where you are

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today, but serve to motivate you
for where you can be in the future.

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Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So a lot of people that'll find
that they're seeking, seeking,

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seeking, seeking, but their presence
is really low, which is why they

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feel that they're at loose ends.

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Other people, they find out that the
problem is that they've been scrolling and

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drinking and playing video games, and that
doesn't count as seeking as it turns out.

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And once they understand that, boy,
oh boy, it can be a real game changer

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for how they're spending their time.

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Matt Abrahams: I think a lot of the
value of the work that social scientists

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do is help people understand where
they are so that they can then move

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forward and change as they need it.

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So meaning is coherence,
purpose, and significance.

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You distinguish between
the me self and I self.

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What is the difference between these two
and how do we move from one to the other?

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I found this distinction
really fascinating.

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Arthur Brooks: Yeah, no, that actually
comes from the work of William James,

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the father of modern psychology.

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What William James talked about, and
this is one of the ways, a little bit

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further down in the book, about actually
how to find the meaning of your life,

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is to get out of the concentration
on yourself, which is the me self,

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and getting interested in the outside
world, which is observation of the

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outside world, also known as the I self.

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And William James correctly
pointed out that you're two people.

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You're somebody who's looking
out and you're somebody who's

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looking in at the same time.

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We're the only species really able
to do this because we're the only

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species that's truly self-conscious.

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That's why homo sapiens, with its
enormous prefrontal cortex, 30% of our

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brain by weight actually can achieve
consciousness in a meaningful way.

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And that consciousness is the blessing
of maybe knowing the divine and the

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curse of deeply knowing yourself.

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Your golden retriever
doesn't know it's alive.

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Doesn't know it's going to die.

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Doesn't really know anything about
tomorrow because it doesn't have

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anything really except the I self
and all the ways that it looks like

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it's self-conscious and behaving
neurotically, that's just a simulation.

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It's just figured out that you're gonna
be nicer to it if it acts a particular

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way, and maybe you'll give 'em a treat.

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It's what it comes down to.

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But the fact is that most other
animals, they only have the I self.

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And that's, by the way, the other reason
that your golden retriever is happier

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than you is because it doesn't have
any me self, it's not self-conscious.

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It's not thinking about itself.

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There's no social comparison.

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It's like, yeah, I don't know.

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I have a shorter tail to the
golden retriever next door.

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It just doesn't care is
what it comes down to.

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So we need to be more like the golden
retriever and spend more time in the I

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self, but we have to do that on purpose.

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And in so doing, looking out, experiencing
the world, getting out of our heads, at

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getting out of this self-consciousness,
then we're in the right hemisphere

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of our brain and then we start to
think about questions of meaning,

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and life just feels more meaningful.

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Matt Abrahams: So what
drives us to the I self?

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Is it curiosity?

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What's the pull away from the me self?

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Arthur Brooks: The pull away from
the me self, generally speaking

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is what we call transcendence.

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And transcendence means transcending
yourself either upward, toward the

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divine or toward greater knowledge,
awe, music, beauty, or transcending

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yourself by serving other people,
which is a really important thing.

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And you know, one the best ways to
stop being miserable and to find

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more meaning is to go serve somebody.

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Matt Abrahams: So it's really thinking
about getting outside of yourself through

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transcendence upward, or, I like how you
said, you know, with those around you.

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Arthur Brooks: We'll call it
vertical and lateral transcendence,

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there are different ways to do it.

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So transcendence is one of the great and
ancient techniques of finding meaning.

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And the reason that we now know is
because it intensely places you in the

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right hemisphere of your brain where
questions of meaning can be adjudicated.

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Matt Abrahams: So that's
why meditation, religion,

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Arthur Brooks: Prayer, worship, totally.

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Philosophy, studying the stoic
philosophers with great seriousness.

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This does it.

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The brahma muhurta, waking up before
dawn and walking without devices.

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Why studying the works
of Johann Sebastian Bach.

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Standing in awe of nature.

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These are different ways for
you actually to transcend.

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Matt Abrahams: All of those require
a quieting and slowing down as well.

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Arthur Brooks: For sure.

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And the way that you quiet and slow
down is stop looking in the mirror.

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And the devices are
nothing more than mirrors.

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Mirrors are a reflection of the self.

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They're me self devices.

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And by the way, literally one of
the things that I recommend to

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people, don't look at yourself
in the mirror at all until noon.

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Not one time until noon.

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And the truth is everybody does this,
but there's a lot of research on the

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fact that the more you look in the
mirror, the more miserable you get

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because you're most aware of your flaws.

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The truth is that almost nobody really
needs to look in the mirror before they

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go out, and it's like no one cares.

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And the less that you do actually use the
physical methods for engaging intensely

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in the me self, the more you'll be in
the I self and the happier you'll be,

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especially in the early hours of the day.

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Matt Abrahams: Right, and I think we also
all need to turn off that self view and

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all the remote virtual tools that we use.

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Arthur Brooks: Oh, totally.

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Matt Abrahams: You talk about this idea of
proxy goals and the value that they serve.

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What are proxy goals and why
should we keep them in mind?

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The one that really resonated with me is
it's about you and not how others see you.

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Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah.

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That's right.

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That's a, and it's about you.

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That's, you need intrinsic
goals, not the extrinsic goals

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of how other people see you.

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So proxy goals are funny.

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I mean, we're recording
this right before Christmas.

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But I know it's gonna be played later,
but it's on my mind 'cause Christmas

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is coming up and you know, the ancient
tradition of the three wise men.

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And the three wise men, what they were
looking for in the ancient story, whether

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people are religious or not, they all
know the story, they were looking for the

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baby Jesus and the state in Bethlehem.

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But they couldn't see him.

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They needed something that would
actually indicate that he was there

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and that was the star of Bethlehem.

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Keep going for the star and you'll
find the baby underneath the star.

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That's what they had been told, right?

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The star was not what they wanted.

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That was a proxy goal and almost all
of the big complex meaning filled

00:11:32.045 --> 00:11:33.755
things in life you can't see 'em.

00:11:33.935 --> 00:11:35.135
You can't see 'em directly.

00:11:35.135 --> 00:11:38.495
You can just perceive them and you
believe that they're there, which

00:11:38.525 --> 00:11:40.385
means you gotta get proxy goals.

00:11:40.385 --> 00:11:42.605
If you wanna find meaning, you
have to have proxy goals and

00:11:42.605 --> 00:11:44.555
you better choose good proxies.

00:11:44.705 --> 00:11:49.165
A big problem that people have, especially
our beloved strivers, is that they have

00:11:49.165 --> 00:11:56.095
horrible proxies, money, power, pleasure,
fame, Instagram followers, prestige.

00:11:56.275 --> 00:11:58.855
Those are really bad proxy
goals for the meaning of life.

00:11:59.095 --> 00:12:02.064
And so I talk about what are
the characteristics of proxy

00:12:02.064 --> 00:12:03.385
goals, and you named one of 'em.

00:12:03.685 --> 00:12:06.985
They have to be things that are
inherently satisfying as opposed to

00:12:07.225 --> 00:12:11.485
that which actually brings you some
sense of luster from the outside world.

00:12:11.925 --> 00:12:14.325
People really, really, uh,
they're, they're gonna envy

00:12:14.325 --> 00:12:15.855
me a lot if I get this car.

00:12:15.885 --> 00:12:18.105
Sorry, that's a terrible
proxy goal for meaning.

00:12:18.315 --> 00:12:19.395
You're never gonna find it.

00:12:19.605 --> 00:12:23.075
That's the star of Bethlehem is if
it were out over the ocean, whoops,

00:12:23.265 --> 00:12:25.305
bad proxy is what it comes down to.

00:12:25.305 --> 00:12:27.705
And so that's kind of how to
think about, you know, are my

00:12:27.705 --> 00:12:30.465
proxy goals really sitting over
the stable of Bethlehem or not?

00:12:31.005 --> 00:12:35.834
Matt Abrahams: I really resonated with
this idea of trying to figure out what

00:12:35.834 --> 00:12:40.755
the proxy goals are because many of mine
are taking me in the wrong direction.

00:12:40.785 --> 00:12:44.355
And I really appreciated you
delineating not only what proxy

00:12:44.355 --> 00:12:47.685
goals are, but the criteria by
which you should establish them.

00:12:47.685 --> 00:12:48.795
It was very helpful.

00:12:49.035 --> 00:12:50.810
Arthur Brooks: That's great, and
that's the chapter on calling.

00:12:51.790 --> 00:12:55.720
Because finding your calling, everybody,
they say they want to do it, but one

00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.880
of the biggest reasons that people
don't find their calling, and by the

00:12:57.880 --> 00:13:01.810
way, finding your calling is one of the
greatest ways to find the meaning in life.

00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.570
The way that you find your calling
is not saying, okay, I'm gonna go

00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:06.370
see my calling suddenly, no, no, no.

00:13:06.550 --> 00:13:09.790
You follow the right proxy
goals, your calling is underneath

00:13:09.790 --> 00:13:11.230
them, is how it comes about.

00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:15.370
And that means, for example, intrinsic
satisfaction, not extrinsic rewards.

00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:16.330
A classic case.

00:13:16.795 --> 00:13:18.925
Matt Abrahams: So it's the pot of
gold at the end of the rainbow.

00:13:18.925 --> 00:13:20.335
You gotta find the right rainbow.

00:13:20.845 --> 00:13:24.175
I asked our members of our Think Fast
Talk Smart Learning Community to submit

00:13:24.175 --> 00:13:25.975
a question they'd like me to ask to you.

00:13:25.975 --> 00:13:27.235
You're beloved by them.

00:13:27.565 --> 00:13:28.735
And here's what I really liked.

00:13:29.275 --> 00:13:33.955
In a world that constantly prioritizes
metrics of success, money, status,

00:13:33.955 --> 00:13:38.575
power, how can individuals reconcile
the internal quest for meaning with the

00:13:38.575 --> 00:13:41.485
external pressure to constantly achieve?

00:13:41.895 --> 00:13:46.905
How do we stop using purpose as a tool
for career advancement and begin using

00:13:46.905 --> 00:13:49.395
our career as a tool for purpose?

00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:52.079
Arthur Brooks: You know, it's, that's
actually one of the reasons that you

00:13:52.079 --> 00:13:56.100
find that people who are in not fancy
careers, they have a greater sense of

00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.640
meaning than people in fancy careers,
than people who don't go to college

00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:02.490
have less of a crisis of meaning
than people who do go to college.

00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:06.390
This is absolutely true because
we're, um, again, there's the matrix

00:14:06.449 --> 00:14:09.930
of the screens in front of us, but
there's the matrix that is our lives.

00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:12.410
The machine-like character of our lives.

00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:16.340
And so one of the things that I strongly
recommend to these people is it gets back

00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:20.900
to an early part of our conversation, is
to make sure that a really big and healthy

00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:25.700
part of your life is you getting better at
things that are not worldly achievement.

00:14:25.900 --> 00:14:30.100
Becoming excellent at things that the
world is not gonna clap for you for.

00:14:30.339 --> 00:14:32.650
And excellence, I mean,
strivers are gonna strive.

00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:34.240
That's just the way
it's actually gonna be.

00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:37.780
But are you truly great at
meditating in a way where you

00:14:37.780 --> 00:14:39.040
understand yourself much better?

00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:40.300
Nobody's gonna pay you for that.

00:14:40.510 --> 00:14:42.400
Nobody's gonna write you
up in the paper about that.

00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:44.050
You're not gonna get a trophy for that.

00:14:44.410 --> 00:14:46.420
Are you better at
practicing your religion?

00:14:46.660 --> 00:14:49.449
Are you learning things that
you don't need to know for work?

00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:51.160
Nobody's gonna pay you for that.

00:14:51.645 --> 00:14:56.805
The whole point is however, that to
start to think about excellence out of

00:14:56.805 --> 00:14:59.025
the world of these extrinsic rewards.

00:14:59.385 --> 00:15:02.895
That's really what it comes down to and
start spending time doing that, and it

00:15:02.895 --> 00:15:07.245
will be so inherently satisfying and
meaningful that you'll never go back.

00:15:07.485 --> 00:15:10.485
Matt Abrahams: It strikes me that
doing those things just to do them

00:15:10.485 --> 00:15:13.670
for those intrinsic rewards, many of
those things are very humbling as well.

00:15:14.364 --> 00:15:17.604
I've studied martial arts for
decades, and the more I do it,

00:15:17.604 --> 00:15:19.375
the more I realize I don't know.

00:15:19.555 --> 00:15:23.935
And it is in that humbling that I
do find meaning and groundedness.

00:15:24.025 --> 00:15:25.285
Arthur Brooks: For sure, absolutely.

00:15:25.375 --> 00:15:27.895
And we're not encouraged to be humble
about the thing that people are paying

00:15:27.895 --> 00:15:32.215
us for, but the truth is that the
stakes, they feel lower for other things.

00:15:32.215 --> 00:15:35.755
It's actually okay for me to,
I can say to my wife, honey, I

00:15:35.755 --> 00:15:37.194
wish I were a better husband.

00:15:37.255 --> 00:15:38.905
I wanna be a better husband.

00:15:38.905 --> 00:15:41.275
I'm not the husband that
I actually should be.

00:15:41.275 --> 00:15:44.905
And there's just this refreshment that
comes from the acknowledgement that

00:15:44.905 --> 00:15:47.005
we're human in these particular ways.

00:15:47.185 --> 00:15:50.965
And when we're very, very fine, very
special work machines, we're not

00:15:50.965 --> 00:15:52.255
gonna find occasions to do that.

00:15:52.585 --> 00:15:54.745
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, there's a
humility and a vulnerability that

00:15:54.745 --> 00:15:58.015
I think really helps when you
find those intrinsic activities.

00:15:59.190 --> 00:16:03.690
As we draw to an end, I typically end
by asking everybody three questions.

00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:06.600
One I create just for them, and
then two that I've asked everyone.

00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.720
But since you were on our show
previously, and people can learn your

00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:14.250
answers by listening to episode 181,
I thought I'd ask you one question

00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:18.120
and then follow up with a rapid fire
activity that I called this or that.

00:16:18.150 --> 00:16:18.745
Are you up for this?

00:16:19.390 --> 00:16:20.295
Arthur Brooks: I'm so up for this.

00:16:20.325 --> 00:16:22.215
Matt Abrahams: Okay, so let's
start with the question first.

00:16:22.425 --> 00:16:27.105
One of the things I appreciate so much
about what you do is that you provide

00:16:27.105 --> 00:16:31.395
specific guidance on things we can
do, practical, tactical activities,

00:16:31.395 --> 00:16:34.450
questions we can ask, surveys we can
take, meditations we can reflect on.

00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:38.920
Can you share one or two of these
activities that you have personally

00:16:38.920 --> 00:16:43.180
found really helpful that you have
deployed or continue to deploy that

00:16:43.180 --> 00:16:46.690
really have benefited you, that, that
hopefully can benefit us as well?

00:16:47.020 --> 00:16:47.350
Arthur Brooks: Yeah.

00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:50.050
One of the things that I do when I'm
working with people for the first

00:16:50.050 --> 00:16:53.170
time is I'd have them take a test on
what's called their affect profile.

00:16:53.530 --> 00:16:57.130
And affect profile is the intensity
of positive and negative emotion.

00:16:57.365 --> 00:17:01.714
When people experience a lot of intense
negative emotion, and half the population

00:17:01.714 --> 00:17:04.845
is above the median in negative
emotionality, it's just the way it is.

00:17:05.014 --> 00:17:08.734
Most strivers are above average
on negative emotionality.

00:17:09.004 --> 00:17:12.359
Management of negative emotion
requires protocols and discipline.

00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:16.040
It requires actually active
management, not elimination.

00:17:16.040 --> 00:17:19.010
Again, one of the things that we've
done in the self-care revolution is

00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:22.340
telling people that there's something
wrong with their sadness and anxiety.

00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:26.960
So number one is having discipline
and protocol in your life that is

00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.074
actually all about self-management.

00:17:29.074 --> 00:17:32.405
So for me that's really, really
important and I've talked about and

00:17:32.405 --> 00:17:33.665
written about this an awful lot.

00:17:33.665 --> 00:17:36.695
It's gotten some attention, as a
matter of fact, and I have a morning

00:17:36.695 --> 00:17:38.764
protocol and an evening protocol.

00:17:38.885 --> 00:17:43.294
The morning protocol is to manage negative
affect and to increase productivity.

00:17:43.475 --> 00:17:47.014
And the evening protocol is to manage
negative affect and enhance sleep.

00:17:47.225 --> 00:17:49.475
And that's one of the things
that our practice very

00:17:49.475 --> 00:17:51.335
assiduously and very seriously.

00:17:51.575 --> 00:17:53.735
Matt Abrahams: And I encourage people
to listen to your show, or to read your

00:17:53.735 --> 00:17:55.505
writings, to learn about your protocol.

00:17:55.505 --> 00:17:57.155
I have tried to mirror some of it.

00:17:57.155 --> 00:18:00.545
The 4:00 AM waking up is a little
hard, but the exercising in the

00:18:00.545 --> 00:18:02.195
morning, I have certainly adopted.

00:18:02.435 --> 00:18:04.625
Arthur Brooks: Yeah, you don't make
the perfect the enemy of the good,

00:18:04.625 --> 00:18:07.295
and I recommend that people actually
figure out their own protocols.

00:18:07.295 --> 00:18:10.175
I just give mine as an exemplar
of a place maybe to start.

00:18:10.445 --> 00:18:11.074
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

00:18:11.074 --> 00:18:14.554
And finding something that you can live
with and do repeatedly is really helpful.

00:18:14.824 --> 00:18:16.955
Alright, you are the first
guest I've ever done this with.

00:18:16.955 --> 00:18:19.264
I've had it done for me and
I found it really insightful.

00:18:19.264 --> 00:18:22.925
So I'm gonna provide you pairs of choices,
and I'd like you to quickly choose the

00:18:22.925 --> 00:18:25.024
one that you gravitate towards most.

00:18:25.024 --> 00:18:27.935
So if I were to say summer
or winter, you would say,

00:18:28.115 --> 00:18:28.655
Arthur Brooks: Winter.

00:18:28.774 --> 00:18:29.225
Matt Abrahams: Okay.

00:18:29.225 --> 00:18:31.475
And then after I give a few of
these, I'm gonna pick one to

00:18:31.475 --> 00:18:32.435
ask you a little bit more of.

00:18:32.435 --> 00:18:34.084
So I've got a couple pairings.

00:18:34.084 --> 00:18:34.455
Ready to go?

00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:35.430
Arthur Brooks: Ready.

00:18:35.580 --> 00:18:36.810
Matt Abrahams: Zoo or aquarium?

00:18:37.050 --> 00:18:37.620
Arthur Brooks: Zoo.

00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:39.420
Matt Abrahams: Suitcase or backpack?

00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:40.410
Arthur Brooks: Suitcase.

00:18:40.770 --> 00:18:42.180
Matt Abrahams: Theater or library?

00:18:42.389 --> 00:18:43.020
Arthur Brooks: Theater.

00:18:43.350 --> 00:18:44.370
Matt Abrahams: Time or money?

00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:45.450
Arthur Brooks: Time.

00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:47.250
Matt Abrahams: People or ideas?

00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:48.210
Arthur Brooks: People.

00:18:48.629 --> 00:18:50.220
Matt Abrahams: Point it out or let it go?

00:18:50.804 --> 00:18:51.524
Arthur Brooks: Let it go.

00:18:51.764 --> 00:18:52.995
Matt Abrahams: Tell me
about that last one.

00:18:53.355 --> 00:18:56.804
Arthur Brooks: So, my natural
tendency is to point it out, but

00:18:56.804 --> 00:19:02.115
Matt, I've been married 34 years and
I've found that pointing it out does

00:19:02.115 --> 00:19:04.304
not give me the best possible life.

00:19:04.395 --> 00:19:08.850
And so appropriate self-management
means that my tendency is to point

00:19:08.850 --> 00:19:12.675
it out, but my choice is to let it
go and life is a lot better usually.

00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:15.070
Matt Abrahams: My answer to
that is exactly the same.

00:19:15.070 --> 00:19:19.150
I think part of our profession has pointed
out, and yet part of our peacefulness

00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:20.170
in our life might be let it go.

00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:25.020
Arthur, you have helped us rethink
many things, from the meaning of in

00:19:25.020 --> 00:19:28.440
our life to how we can strive for
happiness, and just in general how we

00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.330
can create protocols to help ourselves.

00:19:30.570 --> 00:19:33.210
Thank you for your time and
thank you for revisiting us and

00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:34.500
best of luck on your new book.

00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:35.280
Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt.

00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:36.120
I appreciate it so much.

00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:38.610
Thank you for your work and all
you're bringing to the world outside

00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:41.160
of the classroom and to, to the
whole world through this show.

00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:41.580
I love it.

00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:46.020
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:19:46.020 --> 00:19:47.970
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:19:48.314 --> 00:19:50.895
To learn more about communication
and meaning, please listen to our

00:19:50.895 --> 00:19:53.115
miniseries on happiness and wellbeing.

00:19:53.294 --> 00:19:56.415
Those are episodes 179 through 182.

00:19:56.705 --> 00:20:01.425
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:20:01.635 --> 00:20:02.750
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:20:03.435 --> 00:20:05.504
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.

00:20:05.715 --> 00:20:08.715
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00:20:08.775 --> 00:20:10.725
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