266. Your Brain Has Too Many Tabs Open: Managing the Voice in Your Head

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: Doom loops can be one
of the biggest barriers to effective

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communication, yet we can quiet the
chatter and regulate our emotions.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm really excited
to speak with Ethan Kross.

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Ethan is an award-winning professor
of management and organizations at the

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University of Michigan's Ross School
of Business, and he is a director

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of its emotion and self-control lab.

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He studies emotion regulation
and the conscious mind.

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Ethan has written two bestselling
books, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head,

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Why It Matters, and How to Harness It.

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And his latest book is Shift: Managing
Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You.

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Welcome Ethan.

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I'm really excited for our conversation.

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Ethan Kross: It's a delight
and honor to be here, Matt.

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I've been looking forward to this for a
while now, so glad we can make it happen.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

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Shall we get started?

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Ethan Kross: Yeah, let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: So let's
start our chat about chatter.

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Your work on chatter explores
our internal self-talk and how

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it can hijack our performance.

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Can you explain how this happens?

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Ethan Kross: Yeah.

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We should probably start by
defining what chatter means.

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Chatter refers to getting stuck
in a negative thought loop, and

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they're really two kind of telltale
signs that you are experiencing it.

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So one is you've got a legitimate
problem that you're facing.

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Maybe it's a problem at work, maybe
it's a problem at home, and you're

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motivated to work through that problem,
to use your glorious, marvelous

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brain to come up with a solution.

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The problem is you're not successful,
so you keep on trying to work through

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the problem, but you don't make any
progress and you start spinning.

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Sometimes you call this worry,
sometimes we call rumination.

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The common thread, there's a legitimate
problem, but you're not progressing.

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So that's one sign that you're
experiencing this state of chatter.

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Another is you just berate
yourself incessantly.

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I'm an idiot.

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Such an idiot.

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How can I have done this?

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And you just pile on yourself.

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How does this undermine performance?

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One way it does so is by
consuming your attention.

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So let me ask you this question, Matt.

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Have you ever been in a situation where
you sit down to read a few pages in a

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book, and under oath you would swear to a
judge that you've read the information on

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the page except you get to the end and you
do not remember a damn thing you've read.

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Matt Abrahams: Ethan, that happens
so frequently that it is common.

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Ethan Kross: Well, and it's, in my
experience, talking to lots of people

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about this stuff over the years, this is a
universal experience we all have at times.

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And chatter just promotes this.

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So how does this work?

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We have a limited capacity
to focus our attention.

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Our attentional resources are a
precious, limited commodity in our

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brains, and chatter acts like a sponge
that consumes that limited capacity.

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It leaves very little leftover
that allows us to do the things

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that we want or need to do.

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So that's one way it can
undermine our performance.

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The other thing it can lead to is
something that we call analysis paralysis.

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Here, the idea is you start overthinking
things that you can normally do

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without thinking to the point where
the entire performance crumbles.

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If you watch sports, you see
this happening all the time to

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athletes who choke under pressure.

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All of a sudden the second baseman, who
could historically throw the ball to

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first base with their eyes closed, now
can't get anywhere near the vicinity.

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That is also a function of chatter, and
those are two powerful detriments to our

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ability to excel in performance context.

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Matt Abrahams: So chatter sucks up
our cognitive bandwidth and it has us

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doing things more consciously than we
might normally do it, and that's what

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gets in the way of us performing well.

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I see this play out all the time
in the work I do around helping

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people feel more comfortable
and confident in communicating.

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Anxiety around speaking gets into
this chatter loop very easily.

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But what are some techniques
we can use to break this cycle?

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Ethan Kross: An early experience that I
had with analysis paralysis was when I was

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first public speaking as a grad student.

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One of the first classes
I taught, it went well.

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I got some feedback though that
said that I had forgotten to smile

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enough, and so in the second time I
came back I overcorrected, and like

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I smiled so widely that it disrupted,
I forgot what I wanted to say.

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Matt Abrahams: And that happens a lot.

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People get caught up on things like
they hear themselves saying or they know

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what they wanted to say in a certain
way, and then they get into these doom

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loops that prevent them from performing
well and how do we get out of that?

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Ethan Kross: So here's the good news.

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You can get out of it.

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More good news, if someone has told
you about a tool that worked for them,

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but it didn't work for you, no problem.

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Because what we have learned from the
science is that different tools work for

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different people in different situations.

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There are no one size fits all solutions.

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I think of managing your chatter a
lot like becoming physically fit.

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So most of us have goals to be
physically fit for different reasons.

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Some of us want bigger muscles.

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Some of us wanna be able to run longer.

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Based on who you are and your goals,
you're gonna benefit from doing different

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kinds of exercises and routines.

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The same is true when it comes
to managing your chatter.

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So what can you do?

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Well, there are some things you could just
do on your own, basic ways of shifting

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the way you're thinking or behaving that
can turn the volume on your chatter down.

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One category of tools that a lot of people
benefit from or call distancing tools.

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So here the idea is when you find
yourself zoomed in very narrowly on

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a problem and you're ruminating about
it, let's find a way to help you step

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back and look at the circumstance
a bit more objectively, almost like

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you'd be hearing it from a friend.

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Most of us have had the experience
of finding it much easier for

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us to give great advice to a
friend as compared to ourselves.

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There's a name for this phenomenon.

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We've studied it in my lab.

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It's called Solomon's Paradox, named
after the Bible's King Solomon.

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King Solomon was known for being super
wise when it came to other people.

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When it came to himself,
he made terrible decisions.

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This is true of all of us.

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So how do you step outside yourself?

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Lots of ways to do it.

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One tool that I'm fond of is
called distanced self-talk.

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So what this involves is trying
to work through a problem

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using your own name and you.

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So if I'm really stressed out before
a big presentation, I might think

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to myself, all right, Ethan, how
are you gonna manage this situation?

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How have you managed a situation before?

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Here's why distanced self-talk helps.

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It leverages language to
shift our perspective.

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Most of the time that we use the
word you or a name, we're using

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those parts of speech when we think
about or refer to someone else.

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So the link in a person's mind between
the word you as an example, and another

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person is about as strong as you can get.

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So when you use that part of speech to
reference yourself, it's essentially

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turning on the brain machinery
for thinking about someone else.

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Makes it a lot easier for us to work
through our problems objectively.

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So that's one tool you can use.

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Another tool is something that I call
mental time travel into the future.

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Super simple.

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How am I gonna feel about this
presentation three hours from now, three

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days from now, three years from now?

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All of our emotions they
take place on a timeline.

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So you're living your life,
something happens and emotion

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gets spiked, and as time goes
on, the emotion eventually fades.

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When we're consumed with chatter,
we zoom in on the peak of that

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experience and the awfulness, oh
my God, everyone's staring at me.

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And what if I forget to
say what I need to say?

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What if to go to the bathroom,
and blah, blah, blah.

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It is amazing, I should add, that how
creative we can be in coming up with

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worst case scenarios in those moments.

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So when you zoom in on the pinnacle
of the negative experience, what

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you lose sight of is something that
you know at your core to be true.

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You know this to be true because
you've experienced what I'm about

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to describe millions of times in
your life, which is the emotion has

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come and has increased, but then
as time has gone on, it has faded.

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So when you jump into the mental time
travel vision, you think, hey, how

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am I gonna feel about this tomorrow?

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Or next week?

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It automatically makes accessible this
notion that what you're going through,

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as awful as it is, it's temporary.

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It will eventually fade.

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And that does something very powerful
to a mind that is racked with chatter.

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It gives it hope, and that
turns the volume down too.

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So those are just two examples.

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There are dozens of tools out there.

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Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
that, the distanced self-talk, putting

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yourself as the person you're giving
advice to, and then asking yourself

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what this means in the future.

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I've heard things like writing things
down, just recognizing mindfulness

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teaches us that this is what I'm
experiencing in the moment, all of those

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give us a little bit of space to be
able to manage, so thank you for that.

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Given that a lot of our interactions
are mediated, they're virtual, they're

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through social media, I'm curious
if you've found that there are any

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differences in our self-talk or how
we should approach those interactions?

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Ethan Kross: I think it's really
important for us to be mindful

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of the modality that we are
communicating to other people through.

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Technology has provided us with just
enormous opportunities to be more

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efficient and effective, but there
are some trade offs that you get.

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So here's something I think about often
when it comes to chatter and technology.

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We know from lots of research that
when people experience strong emotional

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reactions of the sort that characterize
chatter, they're intensely motivated

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to share the glory that is streaming
through their mind with other people.

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That is, they wanna talk about it.

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Now, in the real, in the non-social
media, non-technology, quote unquote,

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real world, there are some obstacles
that are embedded into life that prevent

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you from immediately talking about
your chatter in the instant that it

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has spiked and is perhaps most extreme.

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Number one, you've gotta find
someone to talk to and people

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aren't like always available.

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And then once you find them, they may
not even be able to listen to you, right?

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So you've gotta wait some
time to find someone.

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And then what often happens as
time passes, some scientists

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describe time as a component of
our psychological immune system.

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That is, time works to reduce the
intensity of our emotional responses.

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As time goes on, our emotions fade, right?

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So you're waiting to talk to
someone in the real world.

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You finally, you know, my wife, I
finally reconnect with her five hours

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later, I'm not as upset as I was before.

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Social media though, gives us access to a
network at all times, and when you couple

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it with smartphones, you whip it out at
the very peak, and then you're sharing.

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And there's one other thing to keep
in mind, which is, on social media,

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I am sharing my inner thoughts and
sometimes frustrations into a text box.

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When I am face-to-face with someone,
I'm in the presence of another human

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being who is sending me all of this rich
information back about how what I'm doing

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and how I'm behaving is affecting them.

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That is, your face, your body is
sending me information about how

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you are feeling, and that can
constrain the way I behave to you.

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Like sometimes, Matt, I'll be honest, like
when I'm pissed off, I mean, it's like

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a Robert De Niro film in there, right?

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Like the expletives that are going,
if I said some of these things out

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loud, I would be in big trouble.

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I would never talk to you that way.

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I wouldn't talk to any
other human being that way.

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And it's because you are
calibrating how I communicate.

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So I think it's just really important to
be mindful of these modality differences,

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'cause we do see that people are much more
likely to share emotional information in

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an unfiltered way on social media that
can sometimes get them in big trouble.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and I think
it's important to always be thinking

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about the channel and what that means
for how and when, and how specific

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you can be in your communication.

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I really like that idea of time
being part of the immune system and

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really helping calm things down.

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I appreciate that.

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You've said that a common piece of
bad advice is simply get over the

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negative feelings that people have.

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I'm curious, why is that such a bad
idea, and if it is, what are some

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communication frameworks or tools you
can share with us that we can use to

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acknowledge others' negative feelings,
without just saying, hey, get over it.

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How can we help them
process those feelings?

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Ethan Kross: Yeah, just get over
it doesn't really give people a

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whole lot of tactical information
to help them get over it.

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I think a lot of people, when
they're struggling, they're highly

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motivated to reduce that struggle.

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They don't wanna stay in that
state, for the most part.

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And so when you just tell people,
just get over it, it's not like

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they're not trying to do so.

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In my latest book, I tell this anecdote
where my wife and I were driving back

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from dinner in Detroit with another
couple, very close friends of ours,

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and the husband has been experiencing
some real stress at work, and it was

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the source of some chatter, and he
was describing it to us in the car.

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And his wife says to him, yeah, why don't
you just think differently about it?

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Effectively like, just get over it.

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And he turns to her and goes, yeah,
easier bleeping said, than done.

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And he did not say bleeping,
I'll let you fill in the blanks.

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And so the idea is, okay, but how?

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It's equivalent to like, just
get in shape, just lose weight.

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But I've never taught you the
exercises and nutritional regimens

00:13:30.335 --> 00:13:32.525
you need to accomplish those goals.

00:13:32.705 --> 00:13:36.095
What is the best way of supporting
other people when they're struggling

00:13:36.095 --> 00:13:37.235
with chatter or big emotions?

00:13:37.805 --> 00:13:42.094
There's a two-step science-based
framework that I'm particularly fond of.

00:13:42.334 --> 00:13:45.305
I'm fond of it because it's
grounded in rigorous science.

00:13:45.484 --> 00:13:49.834
I'm also fond of it because I have
personally found enormous value in it.

00:13:49.925 --> 00:13:53.344
Because before I came in contact with
this framework, people would come to me

00:13:53.344 --> 00:13:55.114
for help and I didn't know what to say.

00:13:55.114 --> 00:13:58.234
Like, sorry, I feel for
you, but now I have a guide.

00:13:58.234 --> 00:14:00.400
So what is in, what are the
steps in this framework?

00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:04.270
Step one is emotionally
connect with the person.

00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.580
Listen to the problem, validate what
they're experiencing, show empathy,

00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:13.210
connect with them, communicate
that you are there for them.

00:14:13.210 --> 00:14:14.500
They have your support.

00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:16.720
And also learn about the circumstance.

00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.070
You need to wrap your head around it.

00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:22.630
Once you have a sense that those social
and emotional connections have been

00:14:22.630 --> 00:14:28.670
forged, then you wanna shift to starting
to work with that person to help broaden

00:14:28.790 --> 00:14:34.459
their perspective, help give them actual
tools that can benefit them, right?

00:14:34.459 --> 00:14:36.290
So Matt, you come to me with a problem.

00:14:36.349 --> 00:14:39.439
I listen, I learn, you know
that I'm genuinely here for you.

00:14:39.765 --> 00:14:42.675
I might throw it back to you and be
like, hey, so what would you tell me if

00:14:42.675 --> 00:14:47.055
I was in your circumstance or I was in
that situation a couple of years ago.

00:14:47.055 --> 00:14:48.765
You know what really benefited me?

00:14:49.065 --> 00:14:52.935
It was actually doing this mental time
travel thing where I went into the future.

00:14:52.935 --> 00:14:53.925
Maybe you try that.

00:14:54.255 --> 00:14:57.255
And there are lots of different
tools you could slip during

00:14:57.255 --> 00:14:58.685
that part of the conversation.

00:14:58.854 --> 00:15:04.125
But the idea is you lay the groundwork,
the emotional groundwork for giving

00:15:04.125 --> 00:15:07.455
those tools at the beginning part of
the conversation, and then you come

00:15:07.455 --> 00:15:09.015
into problem solving mode at the end.

00:15:09.255 --> 00:15:13.455
That's the formula for both being a
good chatter advisor to someone else.

00:15:13.845 --> 00:15:17.505
It's also a formula for helping
you figure out who are the people

00:15:17.505 --> 00:15:20.925
that you should put on your chatter
advisory board, who are the people

00:15:20.925 --> 00:15:22.515
who do both of these things for me?

00:15:22.605 --> 00:15:26.925
Because I'll tell you, when I do audits
of people's advisory boards with them,

00:15:27.075 --> 00:15:30.574
there are lots of people that folks
go to talk to about their problems,

00:15:30.694 --> 00:15:31.834
they don't do both of those things.

00:15:31.834 --> 00:15:35.194
Sometimes they just co-ruminate
with the other person in ways that

00:15:35.194 --> 00:15:36.844
make the situation even worse.

00:15:37.260 --> 00:15:40.500
Matt Abrahams: I really like this
idea of a chatter advisory board and

00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:44.819
really think about who are the people
that help you, and it might be the

00:15:44.819 --> 00:15:48.900
same person or it might be different
people for different situations, but

00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:50.850
I really like that proactive idea.

00:15:50.850 --> 00:15:55.380
And then as somebody who is trying to
help others, we talk a lot on this show,

00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:58.500
and with a lot of people and colleagues
that you and I have in common, about how

00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:02.954
we can connect, we can ask questions,
we can paraphrase, we can demonstrate

00:16:02.954 --> 00:16:07.035
our empathy, to really learn about
the circumstance before we begin to

00:16:07.035 --> 00:16:08.865
provide potential advice and guidance.

00:16:09.045 --> 00:16:12.405
And the examples you used of advice
and guidance, I think, I wanna call

00:16:12.405 --> 00:16:17.655
everybody's attention to, you didn't
say you should do this, you said, in

00:16:17.655 --> 00:16:22.215
my experience, I have found this helped
me, which it changes the dynamic.

00:16:22.215 --> 00:16:25.504
So the tone and manner in which you give
the advice, I think is really important.

00:16:25.724 --> 00:16:27.155
Ethan Kross: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

00:16:27.449 --> 00:16:30.449
The you should, you wanna
use that very sparingly.

00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:32.430
Matt Abrahams: I have a
friend who says you shouldn't

00:16:32.430 --> 00:16:34.260
should all over people, right?

00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:38.100
But saying from your own experience
opens up for conversation.

00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:38.550
Ethan Kross: Yeah.

00:16:38.550 --> 00:16:42.480
And just to take that a beat further,
'cause I think it's such an incredibly

00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:48.750
insightful and important point, Matt,
is why is it that the kind of softer

00:16:48.750 --> 00:16:50.939
way in to giving the info is important?

00:16:50.939 --> 00:16:56.730
It's because all human beings have
this fundamental drive towards agency.

00:16:56.910 --> 00:17:01.440
It's a drive to believe, to use
the technical term, that we are

00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.960
capable of handling our own shit.

00:17:04.290 --> 00:17:09.240
And when you threaten that drive, it
elicits a kind of defensive reactance.

00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.260
And so if you could get in there a little
bit softer, it makes it all easier.

00:17:13.830 --> 00:17:14.430
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:15.780
I love the technical term.

00:17:15.780 --> 00:17:16.410
Thank you.

00:17:16.814 --> 00:17:20.234
I'd like to shift our conversation away
from chatter to your latest book, Shift.

00:17:20.234 --> 00:17:22.994
You've already alluded to it, but
it's all about emotional regulation,

00:17:22.994 --> 00:17:23.895
and by the way, it's fantastic.

00:17:24.630 --> 00:17:28.079
You say in there that a key to
managing your inner world is to view

00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.550
our emotions not as problems to be
suppressed, but as data to be analyzed.

00:17:32.550 --> 00:17:34.320
So this is a way of reframing it.

00:17:34.350 --> 00:17:38.490
What does this shift do for us and
how can we train ourselves to use this

00:17:38.490 --> 00:17:41.070
reframe so we can get some of the benefit?

00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:45.240
Ethan Kross: I think one of the big
problems we have in society right now,

00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:50.490
at least in Western society, is we often,
we give people these aspirational goals

00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:55.650
to live lives free of negative emotions,
striving for happiness all the time.

00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.130
Sometimes this leads to what
we call toxic positivity.

00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:01.050
And here's the problem with that.

00:18:01.050 --> 00:18:04.050
Number one, you're giving
people an impossible goal.

00:18:04.295 --> 00:18:08.075
There's no way you can achieve this goal
of never experiencing negative emotions.

00:18:08.375 --> 00:18:12.755
Number two, it is an undesirable goal
because your negative emotions in

00:18:12.755 --> 00:18:14.615
the right proportions are helpful.

00:18:14.855 --> 00:18:16.385
Let me give you a couple of examples.

00:18:16.415 --> 00:18:21.155
Anxiety, when I don't experience any
anxiety before an important presentation,

00:18:21.325 --> 00:18:26.705
the performance I deliver is not as good
as when I do experience low anxiety.

00:18:26.945 --> 00:18:27.785
Why is that?

00:18:27.965 --> 00:18:33.725
Because the anxiety is information that
tells me, hey, dopey, trying to start

00:18:33.875 --> 00:18:37.415
looking over your slides and making
sure it's all top of mind, right?

00:18:37.475 --> 00:18:40.355
If I don't do that, I just
walk in, it doesn't go as well.

00:18:40.595 --> 00:18:46.564
Anger is what motivates me to intervene
when my daughter doesn't put on her

00:18:46.564 --> 00:18:48.485
helmet when she's riding her bike.

00:18:48.845 --> 00:18:52.145
So we experience anger when our
conception of what is right and

00:18:52.145 --> 00:18:56.015
wrong is transgressed, and there's an
opportunity for you to fix the situation,

00:18:56.225 --> 00:18:58.175
and you approach, you intervene.

00:18:58.445 --> 00:19:00.605
In the right proportions
those are healthy.

00:19:00.815 --> 00:19:04.055
The big problem, of course, is
we often experience negative

00:19:04.055 --> 00:19:05.764
emotions out of proportion.

00:19:05.975 --> 00:19:09.754
That's why it's important to understand
how to regulate it, but we really need

00:19:09.754 --> 00:19:13.655
to understand that we should not be
throwing the baby out with the bath water.

00:19:13.805 --> 00:19:18.785
Just because negative emotions are harmful
some of the time doesn't mean that they

00:19:18.785 --> 00:19:20.135
don't serve a vital role in our lives.

00:19:21.135 --> 00:19:23.445
Matt Abrahams: Taking that
reframe really can help.

00:19:23.595 --> 00:19:27.615
When I feel my anxiety before giving
a speech or my anger with one of my

00:19:27.615 --> 00:19:31.875
kids because they're driving too fast,
when I see that as, hey, this is input

00:19:31.875 --> 00:19:35.895
for me to then act upon rather than
something to bury deep inside or get

00:19:35.895 --> 00:19:38.955
overwhelmed by, I can really make
a difference and I appreciate that.

00:19:39.225 --> 00:19:42.225
It, again, takes that little bit
of distancing to give yourself

00:19:42.225 --> 00:19:43.485
that space to do that though.

00:19:44.805 --> 00:19:47.205
Before we end, I always
ask people three questions.

00:19:47.205 --> 00:19:50.115
One I make up just for you and the
other two I've been asking people as

00:19:50.115 --> 00:19:51.585
long as the podcast has been around.

00:19:51.585 --> 00:19:52.215
Are you up for that?

00:19:52.365 --> 00:19:52.635
Ethan Kross: Yeah.

00:19:52.635 --> 00:19:53.295
Let's do it.

00:19:53.505 --> 00:19:54.345
Matt Abrahams: Question number one.

00:19:54.345 --> 00:19:55.935
You have studied awe.

00:19:56.205 --> 00:20:00.435
Can you tell us very quickly what awe
is and what have you learned about it?

00:20:00.735 --> 00:20:01.125
Ethan Kross: Yeah.

00:20:01.125 --> 00:20:04.155
Awe is an emotion we experience
when we're in the presence of

00:20:04.155 --> 00:20:05.925
something vast and indescribable.

00:20:05.925 --> 00:20:08.145
Something that just feels
bigger than ourselves.

00:20:08.485 --> 00:20:12.685
And what we've learned is that
number one, you can experience awe

00:20:12.745 --> 00:20:13.975
from lots of different sources.

00:20:13.975 --> 00:20:15.865
So a lot of people find awe in nature.

00:20:15.865 --> 00:20:17.845
Beautiful sunset, fall foliage.

00:20:18.145 --> 00:20:22.824
I'm a science guy and I often am filled
with awe when I contemplate the fact

00:20:22.824 --> 00:20:27.205
that we human beings have cracked
the puzzle of interplanetary travel.

00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:31.370
That is, we have figured out how
to blast a vehicle off this planet,

00:20:31.370 --> 00:20:35.570
and safely land it on planet Mars,
and my mind is just can't comprehend

00:20:35.570 --> 00:20:36.830
how we figured out how to do that.

00:20:37.100 --> 00:20:39.380
When we experience this emotion
of awe, it leads to what we

00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:41.120
call shrinking of the self.

00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:45.380
We feel smaller when we're contemplating
something vast and indescribable.

00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:49.250
And when we feel smaller, so do all of
the troubles that are weighing us down.

00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:52.370
And so it's an important reminder
of another resource we possess

00:20:52.370 --> 00:20:53.480
for managing our emotions.

00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:56.774
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and awe, I think,
also can be experienced internally.

00:20:56.774 --> 00:20:59.655
You can think about internal
things as well, not just external.

00:20:59.655 --> 00:21:02.774
So again, it's a way of
distancing and perspective taking.

00:21:03.074 --> 00:21:07.574
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:21:07.814 --> 00:21:11.745
Ethan Kross: My good friend
Angela Duckworth is, I think, just

00:21:11.745 --> 00:21:17.475
exceptional at clearly talking about
science that honors its richness,

00:21:17.475 --> 00:21:19.495
but still being really impactful.

00:21:19.625 --> 00:21:23.860
And I think finding that sweet
spot between being able to talk

00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:29.050
with impact, but not diluting the
science, is really hard to do.

00:21:29.290 --> 00:21:32.139
Matt Abrahams: She is an amazing
communicator and you and Katy Milkman

00:21:32.139 --> 00:21:36.460
have both nominated her as a person
that is admired, so thank you for that.

00:21:36.879 --> 00:21:40.960
Our final question, Ethan, what are
the first three ingredients that go

00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.780
into a successful communication recipe?

00:21:44.145 --> 00:21:49.605
Ethan Kross: Clarity, simplifying as
much as you can, but not beyond that,

00:21:49.875 --> 00:21:54.390
and sharing your passion and love of
what you're doing and talking about.

00:21:54.620 --> 00:21:59.445
Matt Abrahams: Clarity, simplicity, and
emotion that you feel and experience.

00:21:59.775 --> 00:22:03.225
Thank you for that recipe and thank you
for all the insights you've provided.

00:22:03.495 --> 00:22:05.865
A lot of us carry around a lot of chatter.

00:22:06.045 --> 00:22:09.945
It can make it hard for us to regulate our
emotions and manage, and you've given us

00:22:09.945 --> 00:22:11.775
some very specific advice and guidance.

00:22:11.775 --> 00:22:15.405
The one thing I am certainly taking
away as my chatter advisory board,

00:22:15.525 --> 00:22:19.275
uh, I'm sending out applications to
several people to join right away.

00:22:19.305 --> 00:22:20.475
Thank you, Ethan, for your time.

00:22:20.925 --> 00:22:21.675
Ethan Kross: Thanks for having me.

00:22:24.445 --> 00:22:26.305
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:22:26.305 --> 00:22:28.345
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:22:28.675 --> 00:22:32.514
To learn more about how to manage our
internal world and negativity, please

00:22:32.514 --> 00:22:35.754
listen to episode 179 with Lori Santos.

00:22:36.360 --> 00:22:41.250
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:43.050
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:22:43.199 --> 00:22:45.510
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:22:46.050 --> 00:22:49.169
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:22:49.290 --> 00:22:51.480
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:22:51.659 --> 00:22:54.840
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00:22:54.959 --> 00:23:00.430
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