262. Own the Room: How Voice, Breath, and Body Work Together

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Matt Abrahams: To fully be present and in
the moment, you must awaken your voice.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I am delighted to
speak with Patsy Rodenburg.

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Patsy is a world renowned expert in
voice, speech, and presentation, with

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over 45 years of experience coaching
across creative and corporate industries.

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She's the former head of voice at the
UK Royal National Theater and a Director

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for the Royal Shakespeare Company.

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She has transformed how actors,
prime ministers, CEOs, and

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global leaders communicate.

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She's written many books including
Presence and Power Presentation.

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Welcome, Patsy.

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I've been excited for our
conversation for quite a while now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Patsy Rodenburg: I'm so delighted.

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And Matt, I think you're doing something
so important about communication because

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I think it's what the world needs now.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much.

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Shall we get started?

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Patsy Rodenburg: Yes, please.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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You have worked with a number
of famous people to help them

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with their presence and voice.

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I'd like to start with voice.

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What are some of the foundational vocal
principles you provide when you coach?

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Patsy Rodenburg: My work is about
embodiment and it's about a craft that is

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returning people to their natural selves.

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The good news is the vast majority of
people are born with amazing voices, and

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somewhere along the line they lose them.

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And my job is to return people to
their full power in their body,

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in their breath systems, in their
voices, in their ability to speak

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and use language in an exciting way.

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Matt Abrahams: Beyond the
embodiment piece, are there

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principles you help people with
around breathing or articulation?

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Can you walk us through
some of those exercises?

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Patsy Rodenburg: So the first thing I
would do is I would look at somebody's

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body and I would look at the tensions
in the body, starting with the feet.

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The body is like a connected journey.

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We have to connect to our whole body to
find our voice, so the feet, the front

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of the feet, the knees not being locked.

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If you lock your knees, that
tension goes all the way through

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the body into the throat.

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A lot of people with very
tight voices, if you look down,

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they're locking their knees.

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The next thing that's incredibly
important in the body is that the pelvic

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area is on top of the hips, but most
people today, when they stand, they're

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either pushing their hips forward,
locking their knees, and all that builds

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into the body and up into the throat.

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The important thing about the
pelvic area is that that is

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where we have to breathe from.

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It's a very low breath down there.

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We also have to breathe
quickly to think quickly.

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If we think without
breath, it becomes a gavel.

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So if you put your hand on your lower
abdominal area and just feel that, you

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should feel the breath goes down and that
takes a bit of time and it calms you.

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We get frightened when we speak
because we forget to breathe.

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So if I move up through the body,
the spine has to be up, not braced.

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Not pulling your shoulders
back, not slumped.

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If we brace or slump, we reduce our
breath and the energy gets stuck in the

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throat, which is when those wonderful
ideas you have, they come out on a

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monotone, not because your are boring,
because your voice is held and tight.

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And the two last things,
are shoulders being free.

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If you are getting nervous, if you
feel your voice is getting thinner,

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the first thing you can do is just to
think to yourself release my shoulders,

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release my jaw, because until the
body's in place you can't breathe.

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And we are looking to see
no upper chest tension.

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You can put your hand on your upper
chest and if you breathe in, which

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most people do when they're nervous,
the chest lifts, it shouldn't lift.

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Because as it lifts, I dunno if you
can feel the back of the rib cage

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tighten means that you are not breathing
because the lungs are at the back.

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Matt Abrahams: So it's balance of body
and rooting yourself into the ground.

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Patsy Rodenburg: Yes, and
looking out at the world.

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And of course we know who we're going
to listen to long before they speak.

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We know through their body.

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And if you are centered, you
come on or you walk into a space

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with authority, with clarity.

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So the next thing I would do is open
the voice with the breath underneath it.

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And you can feel this if you
are sitting beside a desk.

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If you push your hands against the table,
remember your feet on the floor, the front

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of the feet on the floor, and you breathe,
you will feel the breath go down more.

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Matt Abrahams: Wow.

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That's a great activity.

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I'm doing that as I speak
and I see what you're saying.

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It is fascinating to me that body
leads to breathe which leads to voice.

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And by connecting those together, you
can improve and open up your voice to

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do the things that we want it to do.

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I often will say, your voice
is like a wind instrument.

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The more air you put through
it, the more you can do with it.

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The limited voice work that I do, I
recommend to my students and the people

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I coach, that reading out loud can be a
tool to help because it mimics speaking

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out loud, but it gives you a little bit
more cognitive bandwidth to pay attention

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to breath, because I don't have to
think of the words, I'm reading them.

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Patsy Rodenburg: Read
out loud, absolutely.

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Here's another trick though.

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So if you stand with your book, maybe,
you're reading out loud, and you're

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holding the book up so that you're
not looking down, which is not useful.

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And if you hold the book with one
hand and stand against a wall and

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gently push with your other arm,
which engages the breath just like it

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did when you were pushing the table.

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You'll feel the breath.

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Now, take a breath and read out sending
your voice to a point just above eye

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line, and then the voice not only
leaves you, but it grows in strength.

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Most voices I meet, there's
nothing wrong with them.

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They can be improved, Matt, but
they're just rusty and dusty.

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They're not used, you know?

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Matt Abrahams: I often tell people, in
my mind I'm amazingly eloquent, but when

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I open up my mouth, I'm not as lucky.

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You said several things there
that really stand out to me.

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The voices you meet.

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I love that idea that we are our voice
and we meet the person, but the voice

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they bring, and I like this idea of being
generous enough to let your voice out.

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Your voice is a gift and
you're giving it to the world.

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I want to get very tactical
and practical here.

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Many people I know feel that their
voice is quiet, they speak quiet.

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You said something that made me
wonder, you said visualize your

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voice going out over your eye line.

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I imagine, like an athlete warms
up, that there are some things we

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can do to help warm up our voice.

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I often marvel that people think
they can go from silence to vocal

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brilliance without warming up.

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Do you have a favorite warmup
activity or two that you could share

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that we could practice perhaps?

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Patsy Rodenburg: I'd
get somebody standing.

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Of course, you stand, you
feel, you stretch a bit.

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You let the shoulders go.

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You might flop over to one side and
breathe, the, the rib cage starts working.

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The rib cage gets very
rusty, very quickly.

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Do both sides so that we just get that.

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Very gentle, silent breaths.

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So if you breathe quietly,
you'll be amazed how wonderful

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it feels in the throat.

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It's open.

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And the other one, which is
great, is to give yourself a hug.

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Just flop over a bit from the waist with
your arms up against your chest, and in

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that position, breathe in and out and
you will open the back of the rib cage.

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I have to say most people today don't
even think that the back of the rib cage

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is important, but we know it organically.

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So that if you get those muscles
working and then first thing

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in the morning, you have to get
the breath underneath the voice.

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So here's an image.

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I mean, you are an athlete, you know
these things, to throw the voice.

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So if you can throw a ball, if you just
breathe in, there's a suspension and you

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throw the ball on the breath, just like
you did when you were pushing against

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the wall, you're feeling the breath.

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If you can do that and hum to a
point, so you are just warming up

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the support of the breath, humming,

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very light, and you can
play all over the play.

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Ma, ma, ma ma, ma ma. You can play with
your voice and you are trying to get a

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buzz on the lips, which is the physical
sign that your voice is coming forward.

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Most people today, their voice
is stuck back down the throat.

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So they're mumbling down there.

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And if the voice is stuck down the
throat, you can't speak clearly

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because the speech muscles can't
feel the energy of the voice.

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Keep the breath, keep the idea
of it leaving you, and then maybe

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on an, Ooh, that's a lovely way
of getting the voice forward.

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Ooh, just bringing your lips.

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And literally, if you did that for a few
minutes and then you spoke a bit of text

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out aloud or if you are having a difficult
conversation, practice it out loud.

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Walk around the house with
purpose, with your presence.

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Walk around, looking around.

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Look outside a window, breathe,
and practice what you have to say.

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Practice out loud.

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Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much.

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I have heard of vocal warmups where
you buzz your lips and puff out air,

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but I have never heard of working
with the body, stretching the body.

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I like just leaning to the side,
opening up the ribs, leaning

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forward, hugging yourself.

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Very useful and I like that idea
of visualizing, pulling the voice

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forward so we're not mumbling.

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Patsy Rodenburg: What I'm doing now is I'm
just imagining the voice projected out.

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It's not pushed, it's just you
let it out and within a few days

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you will feel the difference.

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This is the simple stuff
that people forget.

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They want to get onto the speech.

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Speech is the last thing in the chain.

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So once you've warmed up your body
and your breath and your voice, you

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can start moving your mouth about a
bit, but these muscles will tune up

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very quickly as long as they've got
the voice and the breath behind them.

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Matt Abrahams: Yet again, you
are emphasizing the connection

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of body, breath, and voice.

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I'd like to transition to talk
about physical presence, something

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I know is very important to you.

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What advice do you have for anyone
wishing to improve their physical

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presence in how they communicate?

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Patsy Rodenburg: I think the physical
presence of the human being is

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the most important thing we have.

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We don't do anything well in life unless
we put our full presence on it, but

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it's, if you talk to anthropologists,
what made us so powerful on the

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planet is that we could build teams.

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A team doesn't exist until everyone
is present, and presence is having

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an energy connecting to the world
around you, and we all have it.

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It's the survival thing that we do.

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But presence is an outward focus, not
on yourself, but to something else.

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And it's what we do when
we walk in the countryside.

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We become present because we look
at a tree, or a bird in a tree.

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That's what art is supposed to do.

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It's supposed to bring
us back to our presence.

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We go to the theater.

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The actor has to be present, the
ensemble is present, and they help

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bring us back, as Shakespeare says, to
be or not to be, that is the question.

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That is the question.

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And so I believe we're
all born fully present.

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Most of us, very few people on
the planet haven't got presence,

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so we have to refind it.

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I started this in the seventies and I
created something called the three circles

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of energy because I found people were
saying, oh, that actor has it and that

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one doesn't have it, which is rubbish.

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We all have it.

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So what I talk about in presence
is if we understand where we take

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our presence away from ourselves.

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And that's first circle.

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First circle people you will
often see it in their body.

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They're pulling their presence away.

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They're looking down, they're, shallow
breaths, so they're going into a

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little shell and the voice follows.

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So I'm going to do a voice of first
circle when everything falls back.

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So instead of the voice
going out, is falling back.

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We can work in all sorts of
ways on presence, but I would

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ask people to do exactly what
I've talked about in the voice.

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And look out to the world and make
sure that they're not in first

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circle, which is that pulling
back, I used to call it denial.

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I used to call second
circle a state of readiness.

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So any athlete I'd work with, I
can get them immediately present

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because they know that they have
to be present to win the game.

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Third circle is when people are bluffing
and they push out and you'll see third

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person energy pushing out their chest.

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They're too loud, that you meet at
a party and they're looking beyond

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you, that they're not with you.

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So the most powerful thing we can
do in communication is stay present

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with somebody, present with a group.

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And when it works and people become
present with us, we have an exchange.

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You can't ever say anything
important to somebody unless you

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are present and they're present.

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So we practice every day being
present and you can by just sitting,

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breathing to a point, and looking at
something across the room, or imagine

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doing something that you do very well
and you'll realize you're present.

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If you drive very well, you are present.

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If you, crafts people are present.

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You don't make a great table without
putting your presence into it.

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And we can physically say to ourselves,
look, I've just pulled back on my heels.

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My shoulders are rounded.

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My sternum has collapsed, my head, and
my breath is very shallow, and I've

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just absented myself from the world.

00:13:20.901 --> 00:13:24.441
Matt Abrahams: I like this notion of
the circles and that the happy medium is

00:13:24.441 --> 00:13:27.431
in between the pulling and the pushing.

00:13:27.521 --> 00:13:29.826
It seems to me that it
starts with awareness.

00:13:29.856 --> 00:13:32.736
You have to have that awareness
of where are you in that moment,

00:13:33.126 --> 00:13:36.726
and certainly different emotions,
different situations might cause you

00:13:36.726 --> 00:13:39.996
to start in one place, but once you
have that awareness, you can move.

00:13:39.996 --> 00:13:43.386
And it sounds to me that we can check
in with our bodies, that there are

00:13:43.386 --> 00:13:47.736
physical tells of where we are to
bring us more to that neutral place.

00:13:47.916 --> 00:13:49.956
Patsy Rodenburg: It's about
generosity and curiosity.

00:13:49.956 --> 00:13:53.116
If you are curious and you're
generous, you are generally present.

00:13:53.286 --> 00:13:55.476
Now, the thing that you've
said that's so important.

00:13:55.976 --> 00:13:59.816
Is that the physicality that we're
talking about that stops the breath and

00:13:59.816 --> 00:14:06.056
the voice, either pulling away in first
circle or pushing out in third, that

00:14:06.056 --> 00:14:09.146
stops us being aware of our presence.

00:14:09.476 --> 00:14:10.976
It cuts us off from the world.

00:14:11.401 --> 00:14:13.321
Matt Abrahams: When you and I
very first chatted, and it was a

00:14:13.321 --> 00:14:17.101
lovely first chat we had, you said
something that really stuck with me.

00:14:17.101 --> 00:14:21.091
You told me your thoughts on how
important leveraging the space

00:14:21.151 --> 00:14:24.001
around us is for our communication.

00:14:24.241 --> 00:14:27.391
Most of us think of communication
as getting what I have in my head

00:14:27.391 --> 00:14:31.141
into your head, but the space in
which we do it and how we leverage

00:14:31.141 --> 00:14:33.031
that space can be really important.

00:14:33.031 --> 00:14:35.581
Can you share some insights on
why we should pay attention to

00:14:35.581 --> 00:14:37.201
our communication environment?

00:14:37.981 --> 00:14:41.191
Patsy Rodenburg: Because, A, we're
talking about our physical energy,

00:14:41.191 --> 00:14:43.021
which is a physical energy around us.

00:14:43.666 --> 00:14:47.906
We have a problem in our design
is that we haven't got 360 sight,

00:14:47.926 --> 00:14:50.326
so we do have to feel around us.

00:14:50.596 --> 00:14:53.476
So when you are speaking to
people, you have to be aware

00:14:53.476 --> 00:14:55.216
of their space and your space.

00:14:55.516 --> 00:14:59.686
Now, that could also be making
sure that you sit in a place

00:14:59.686 --> 00:15:00.736
where everyone can see you.

00:15:00.736 --> 00:15:04.816
It's a simple stagecraft, but you
have to have the sense that there's

00:15:04.816 --> 00:15:09.451
space and breath around you and
everyone for them to feel safe enough.

00:15:09.601 --> 00:15:14.221
We talk about a safe space, whether
any space is safe, but the leader who

00:15:14.221 --> 00:15:18.811
allows everyone their space, and that
we can all see each other and recognize

00:15:18.811 --> 00:15:24.071
each other is a very good leader and has
a chance to make people feel at ease.

00:15:24.441 --> 00:15:26.071
It's the physical space around us.

00:15:26.071 --> 00:15:29.611
And then we get into stagecraft when,
what is the best place to stand?

00:15:29.911 --> 00:15:33.511
What is the best place that, you see
people giving keynotes and they're

00:15:33.511 --> 00:15:38.731
standing, and actually, you know, if
there's 500 people, 50 can't see them

00:15:38.821 --> 00:15:40.321
because they're not in the right place.

00:15:40.561 --> 00:15:44.131
Now, that doesn't mean to say you can't
walk around, but you've got to establish

00:15:44.131 --> 00:15:50.026
things and you have to establish a
safety, in a way, within your space.

00:15:50.206 --> 00:15:51.286
Where am I sitting?

00:15:51.346 --> 00:15:52.756
Am I looking down at you?

00:15:53.026 --> 00:15:54.016
Am I doing this?

00:15:54.016 --> 00:15:56.866
You know, I, I say to teachers,
do you know that most of

00:15:56.986 --> 00:15:58.156
the students can't see you?

00:15:58.486 --> 00:15:59.806
And you're wondering why they're bored?

00:16:00.076 --> 00:16:01.336
So those are the sorts of things.

00:16:01.336 --> 00:16:04.336
So it's our physical presence,
which does have space.

00:16:04.546 --> 00:16:08.161
And when somebody enters it without
permission, it can be scary.

00:16:08.221 --> 00:16:11.641
And when we're in second circle
with our space and we're seeing

00:16:11.641 --> 00:16:13.651
each other, we have equality.

00:16:13.771 --> 00:16:17.731
First circle people by pulling back,
they're not necessarily inferior,

00:16:17.731 --> 00:16:19.561
but they're signaling inferiority.

00:16:19.651 --> 00:16:22.921
Third circle people, they're
pushing their space and they're

00:16:22.921 --> 00:16:24.721
taking up too much space.

00:16:25.141 --> 00:16:27.331
They're signaling superiority.

00:16:27.451 --> 00:16:30.661
So we have to have a regard
for each other's space,

00:16:30.871 --> 00:16:32.221
because then we can be equal.

00:16:32.626 --> 00:16:36.286
Matt Abrahams: Thinking about how
space and our use of space helps

00:16:36.286 --> 00:16:37.966
communicate things is really important.

00:16:38.146 --> 00:16:41.266
I have a very particular, uh,
instance that came to mind.

00:16:41.266 --> 00:16:44.896
I was coaching a very senior leader of
a company everybody has heard of, and

00:16:44.896 --> 00:16:48.556
he was up on stage presenting, and he
had something very serious to say they

00:16:48.556 --> 00:16:50.386
were going to do a reduction in force.

00:16:50.386 --> 00:16:51.856
People were going to lose their jobs.

00:16:52.006 --> 00:16:54.976
And totally spontaneously, this
was not rehearsed 'cause I worked

00:16:54.976 --> 00:16:58.731
with him on his content, he stepped
off the stage and walked into the

00:16:58.731 --> 00:17:00.291
audience to deliver the message.

00:17:00.441 --> 00:17:03.681
And while the message was not
pleasing, people were not happy to

00:17:03.681 --> 00:17:05.901
hear the news, it felt different.

00:17:06.051 --> 00:17:10.101
There was a connection that happened in
that moment when he walked off the stage.

00:17:10.161 --> 00:17:12.351
It was not inauthentic or disingenuine.

00:17:12.351 --> 00:17:16.431
I think he really felt that in that
moment, where you put yourself says a lot.

00:17:16.821 --> 00:17:19.606
Patsy Rodenburg: Well, that's a
wonderful example of him realizing

00:17:19.606 --> 00:17:21.741
that he had to meet them closer.

00:17:22.186 --> 00:17:24.466
Matt Abrahams: We have to think
about it and, and we need to avoid

00:17:24.466 --> 00:17:28.246
the lecterns and podiums that cause
us to be back from the audience.

00:17:28.516 --> 00:17:31.216
Patsy Rodenburg: Which takes, causes
us into third circle and masked.

00:17:31.216 --> 00:17:32.476
We, we become masked.

00:17:33.976 --> 00:17:35.986
Matt Abrahams: Patsy, before
we end, I like to ask three

00:17:35.986 --> 00:17:37.636
questions of everybody I interview.

00:17:37.636 --> 00:17:41.176
One I create just for you and the
others are similar across everybody.

00:17:41.176 --> 00:17:41.926
Are you up for that?

00:17:42.016 --> 00:17:42.316
Patsy Rodenburg: Yep.

00:17:42.821 --> 00:17:47.581
Matt Abrahams: So across your varied
experiences, I am sure you have worked

00:17:47.581 --> 00:17:51.031
with many people who have anxiety
around whatever they're doing, a doctor

00:17:51.031 --> 00:17:54.151
giving bad news, uh, somebody giving
a keynote, that's really important.

00:17:54.391 --> 00:17:57.361
Actors getting out on stage and
taking risks that they haven't.

00:17:57.931 --> 00:18:02.311
Do you have two or three things
that you can quickly share that help

00:18:02.311 --> 00:18:07.021
people feel more confident in their
communication in those circumstances?

00:18:07.411 --> 00:18:09.241
Patsy Rodenburg: Number
one, we've talked about it.

00:18:09.751 --> 00:18:10.696
Try to stand up.

00:18:11.386 --> 00:18:12.466
Feel the floor.

00:18:12.556 --> 00:18:18.616
Release your shoulders, and before you go
into the space, breathe deeply and slowly.

00:18:19.276 --> 00:18:20.296
Keep that going.

00:18:20.596 --> 00:18:24.406
Feel the suspension of the breath,
which is I breathe in just that

00:18:24.406 --> 00:18:26.086
moment before you throw a ball.

00:18:26.596 --> 00:18:32.266
And this sounds counterintuitive,
as you go into any space, look

00:18:32.266 --> 00:18:36.176
at people in the eyes, and the
more you look the calmer you get.

00:18:36.741 --> 00:18:42.891
You look at people, you breathe, you take
your time, you don't rush to begin with.

00:18:43.041 --> 00:18:47.121
The rushing will kick off even more
adrenaline, and you'll get more panicked.

00:18:47.601 --> 00:18:52.341
If you have a chance before you go into
a space, or even if you are in a space,

00:18:52.341 --> 00:18:56.961
you can reset by thinking, I'll just stop
for a moment and take another breath.

00:18:57.171 --> 00:18:59.421
I, I promise you, I, it will help.

00:18:59.421 --> 00:19:02.961
I can't get rid of the nerves, but
the nerves don't become debilitating.

00:19:03.331 --> 00:19:05.821
Matt Abrahams: And I think the anxiety
and nervousness can actually help you.

00:19:05.821 --> 00:19:09.271
It gives you energy and focus, but
I like this idea of the physicality

00:19:09.271 --> 00:19:12.281
of the deep breath and then the
connecting through eye contact, while

00:19:12.301 --> 00:19:14.971
I agree, sounds counterintuitive,
for me, it works really well.

00:19:14.971 --> 00:19:18.151
Because I realize these are normal
people who just want to be and get

00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:19.421
some value from what I have to say.

00:19:19.846 --> 00:19:23.281
Patsy Rodenburg: And then I
will also say, worry about the

00:19:23.281 --> 00:19:24.931
audience rather than yourself.

00:19:25.126 --> 00:19:28.966
A relief that you can worry
about them understanding you

00:19:29.236 --> 00:19:30.136
and they'll give it back.

00:19:30.136 --> 00:19:34.066
The more generous you are in life in
these ways, the more you get back.

00:19:34.456 --> 00:19:36.796
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that
generous answer and for giving us

00:19:36.796 --> 00:19:38.656
very specific actionable ideas.

00:19:38.776 --> 00:19:42.766
Question number two, and you have worked
with so many, I'll be very curious, who

00:19:42.766 --> 00:19:45.526
is a communicator that you admire and why?

00:19:46.051 --> 00:19:47.551
Patsy Rodenburg: Michelle
Obama comes to mind.

00:19:47.881 --> 00:19:48.901
She takes her time.

00:19:48.901 --> 00:19:49.711
She's listening.

00:19:49.711 --> 00:19:53.581
She's with you, she's with
the audience, and she's not

00:19:53.581 --> 00:19:56.011
frightened of being disliked.

00:19:56.161 --> 00:19:59.671
One of the most off-putting things is
people wanting to be liked all the time.

00:20:00.376 --> 00:20:01.906
Matt Abrahams: Final
question for you, Patsy.

00:20:02.026 --> 00:20:07.936
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:20:08.266 --> 00:20:10.216
Patsy Rodenburg: Prepare an embodied way.

00:20:10.546 --> 00:20:15.196
Practice it, knowing that it
won't be verbatim, practice.

00:20:15.766 --> 00:20:20.596
And again, it's the curiosity and the
generosity that you bring into the space.

00:20:20.971 --> 00:20:23.011
Matt Abrahams: How wonderful of a recipe.

00:20:23.101 --> 00:20:27.361
It's about preparing,
practicing, being present with

00:20:27.361 --> 00:20:29.311
your generosity and curiosity.

00:20:29.431 --> 00:20:31.681
A great recipe and great advice.

00:20:31.771 --> 00:20:33.601
And Patsy, thank you so much.

00:20:33.661 --> 00:20:39.631
You have done an amazing job of being very
generous and helping us, not only awaken

00:20:39.631 --> 00:20:44.401
our voices and our presence, but awaken
our minds to new ways of communicating

00:20:44.461 --> 00:20:45.991
and really connecting with others.

00:20:46.291 --> 00:20:46.861
Thank you.

00:20:47.406 --> 00:20:48.086
Patsy Rodenburg: Absolutely, my pleasure.

00:20:50.851 --> 00:20:53.011
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:20:53.011 --> 00:20:55.651
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:20:55.951 --> 00:20:58.411
To learn more about nonverbal
presence, please listen to

00:20:58.411 --> 00:21:00.811
episode 137 with Dana Carney.

00:21:01.411 --> 00:21:06.631
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:21:06.931 --> 00:21:08.611
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:21:08.911 --> 00:21:11.101
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:21:11.881 --> 00:21:15.241
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00:21:15.451 --> 00:21:17.671
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