259. Quick Thinks: Task-Focused to People-Focused—A Smarter Way to Communicate

WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: One of the best ways to
be purposeful, respectful, and successful

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at work is to optimize for spaciousness.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to this Quick Thinks episode
of Think Fast Talk smart, the podcast.

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I had a really insightful and inspiring
conversation with Megan Reitz.

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Megan is an associate fellow at
University of Oxford Saïd Business

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School and an adjunct professor
of leadership and dialogue at Hult

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International Business School.

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She shared so many valuable skills
and approaches that we couldn't

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fit them all into one episode.

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So here comes more practical, tactical
tips on how to be more spacious

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and mindful in your communication.

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You discuss doing mode and spacious mode.

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Can you help us understand what
these are and why they're important?

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And how can we help people take the more
specious thinking approach to interaction?

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Megan Reitz: So this is my
very recent research on a

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topic that I call spaciousness.

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And the reason why we started looking
into it is if, you know, after a decade

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probably of working, at least a decade
of working, with organizations trying

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to develop psychological safety and
trying to change their habits, if

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there is one, might I say, excuse that
I hear the most often for cultures

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not changing it's when people say to
me, we're just so busy at the moment.

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We've just got so much on, I haven't
quite had time to do what I said I would.

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So we decided to explore exactly
what was going on with this.

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And the way we describe it in our
research, we have two modes of attention,

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two ways of, if you like, of encountering
the world and other people around us.

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We have what we call the doing mode.

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And in the doing mode we are focused on
the achievement of a goal or a target.

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So it's instrumental, tends
to be quite short term.

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It's quite a narrow attention.

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We are interested in control
and also in predictability.

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And we often see others and the
world around us as separate to us

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and things that can be manipulated
in order to achieve a goal.

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That mode, the doing mode, is
utterly vital for survival.

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Okay?

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So we couldn't live without it.

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We do have another mode, and
we call that the spacious mode.

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And when we're in a spacious
mode, our attention is expansive.

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It's unhurried.

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We are not trying to seize
the, what should I do?

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What must I do?

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What sense does this make?

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What will happen?

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What's the action steps?

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We are encountering in the
present moment, others in the

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environment around us, expansively.

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So it tends to be the area
where we gain insight.

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We tend to see relationships and
interdependence and flow and change and

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emergence when we're in the spacious mode.

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So obviously depending on the
mode of attention we have, we

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make very different choices.

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And the issue that we are seeing
particularly in the last few

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years is that the doing mode has
muscled in and taken over pretty

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much most of our organizational
and indeed our personal worlds.

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So if you think about types of
organizations, that type of conversations

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that organizations can have, we need
to talk about task, but we also need

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to talk about purpose and meaning.

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We need to talk about
learning and reflection.

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We need to talk about ideas and
creativity, and we also need

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to talk in a way that develops
and builds our relationship.

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But the task bit of that seems
to have slightly suffocated

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some of the other aspects.

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That's what we are interested in.

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We are interested in how do you
create the space inside, frankly,

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pathologically busy work systems to
have the conversations that matter.

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And that's the link with psychological
safety is that there is, that

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sometimes we just get so busy we can't
pause and turn our attention to the

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other to ensure that we create an
environment where we can really speak

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up and be heard in the first place.

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So there's no point in talking to
people about habits and techniques

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around psychological safety if
they're just caught up in the doing

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mode and they can't even see it.

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So that's our latest research.

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And I have to say, it's probably the, oh,
most interesting and challenging research

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I think I've ever done in my life.

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Matt Abrahams: It is very interesting.

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Several things I wanna dive into.

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The first thing that struck me is
it sounds like we need to develop

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an ability to be agile and fluid to
move into the different modes, the

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doing mode versus the spacious mode.

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Being in any one without being
able to move into the other, I

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think probably leads to problems.

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Clearly, we overindex on the doing mode.

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My life is full of doing, and
yet the most rich, meaningful and

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important conversations happen
when I'm in a more spacious mode.

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And it strikes me also that when we
talk about our own communication, the

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way we are in the world, that we have
to be able to be fluid in response

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to who it is we're speaking to.

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So if I'm talking to my boss, I
have to agilely adapt, and then if

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somebody is talking to me and I'm
in a position of power status, I

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have to adjust and adapt as well.

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How do you help people build
this agility and ability to flow

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into one place versus the other?

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Megan Reitz: So the first thing I
would say is just being able to give

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a language to the spacious mode.

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And that's actually one of the key
objectives, I suppose, of our research

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is in a doing mode and in a doing world,
we don't have much time for spaciousness.

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The first thing is to sort of
see the irony of that and be

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able to lift ourselves and just
value and see and have a credible

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language around the spacious mode.

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So that's what we're trying to do.

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Now, once we actually talk about how do
we create that capacity to choose, one

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of the things, key things, is safety.

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And again, this links to the
psychological safety in our

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research on speaking truth to power.

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When we are fearful and anxious, our
perspective and our attention narrows.

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Yeah, we, it, we become very focused
on ourself as opposed to other as well.

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We are in survival mode, so the more
that we can do in our systems and

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our teams to recognize psychological
safety and to develop and build that,

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the more likelihood is that we'll
be able to move into a spacious mode

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when we need to, as in when we need to
innovate and relate with one another.

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And dare I say it, have fun at work,
that safety is a really important part.

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But the other thing that I would
probably mention is people.

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So the people we hang around with have
such an influence on the attention that we

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then pay to one another and to the world.

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And one of the much talked about problems
of social media is that we tend to go

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into these silos of very narrow thinking,
same thinking groups that increases

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the way that we polarize issues and
that we can discuss around issues.

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So I also do quite a bit of work asking
people to notice who they spend time with.

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And of course I think there's a saying
that says you can't choose your family.

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Well you often can't choose members
of your work colleagues as well,

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but you do have some influence.

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So if you are managing a team, for
example, and you are thinking, gosh, we

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are rushed off our feet and we're all,
we've got our head in the sand, who

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can I bring in, probably from outside,
that can just be that sort of person

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that enables us to take our breath,
pause a second, and look around, and

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then make wise choices rather than
just busy, sometimes foolish, choices.

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So lots of stuff around safety, lots
of stuff around who we spend time with.

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And I guess the other one I'd probably
pick out is, funnily enough, conflict.

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So how can we bring in dissonance?

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How can we surprise ourselves
and others so that we are

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woken up from the doing mode?

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And that we are forced
to go, oh wait a second.

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Good point.

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Why are we doing this?

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Or, hang on, let me just see
things from the customer side.

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Again, it's a kind of a dig
in the ribs to say, wake up.

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Stop being a busy fool.

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Look up and look around, reconnect
with what you're actually trying to

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do, your bigger and wider intention.

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And then when we've got that set on the
compass, so to speak, let's go again.

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So those are just some of the
things that are coming out at the

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moment, but this research is very
much, um, work in action right now.

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Matt Abrahams: Well, and I appreciate
the explication you gave and

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the actionable things we can do.

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We have to develop a language
around it, and that language can be

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something that's co-created within
the organization or relationship that

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we have that gives us the opportunity
to have these conversations.

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We have to build psychological safety,
which I'd like to address next, and then

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we have to think about the people who are
around us and how they can help snap us

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out of our habits and our way of acting.

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One way that I have seen that works
really well, given that we don't

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have a lot of control sometimes
over who we are working with.

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Is to assign different roles.

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So for this task, for this meeting,
for this project, you are in the role

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of devil's advocate where your job is
to question, even though the person

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might be somebody I work with a lot and
have similar attitudes and approaches

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with, by virtue of giving them that
role, it can give you that little dig

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in the ribs, as you've talked about.

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So we've had the pleasure of
speaking with Amy Edmondson.

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She's well known for having defined
the notion of psychological safety.

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I am curious if you can provide for
us some specific guidance on how, not

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only someone in a position of power,
a leader, the head of the family,

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whatever, can establish psychological
safety, but how can those who are not

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in power also encourage and support it?

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What are some things we can do to
really build that psychological safety?

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Megan Reitz: I think I'll answer that
by saying, what do I see go wrong a lot

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of the time over the last few years?

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And therefore what is
really important here?

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And the very first thing I would
say, and I think Amy would probably

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agree on this being a problem, is
people's misunderstanding of what

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psychological safety really means.

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And sometimes it's, I encounter it being
thought of as being nice, as being lovely,

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as being in agreement, as comfortable.

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Whereas to me, psychological safety
is our capacity to have the really

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difficult conversations that we
have to have if we are to flourish.

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So it can be far from comfortable.

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So if you go into an organization
and you see it all very polite

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and comfortable, I would say it's
unlikely to be psychologically safe.

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So the very first thing is, you know,
understanding that psychological safety

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is about our ability to challenge
one another and give feedback to

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one another openly and honestly.

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One of the first things I find in
organizations that are trying to develop,

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you know, speaking up and speak up
cultures, they make the mistake of looking

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at the people that aren't speaking up
and then mainly trying to fix them.

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So we try and fix the people that
are silent rather than noticing the

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impact that we have within the system.

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So I spend a lot of time with wherever you
are on the hierarchy, it really doesn't

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matter, but how you show up affects
the voices of the people around you.

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And I just wanna sort of pause there
and just underline that because it's

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actually quite profound when you think
about it and think about it from a family,

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community, and workplace orientation.

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How you show up affects the voices
of the people around you, and I

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think that's tremendously important
for people to really notice and then

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have the capacity to view and reflect
on how they are showing up in the

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impact that they have on others.

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I'll just mention two other things.

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One, I would say we have surveyed about
24,000, I think, employees globally now.

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And one of the clearest patterns
that we have is something

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called superiority illusion.

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Superiority illusion is when we all
think that we listen quite well.

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It's just everybody else
that needs to get better.

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All of us tend to be quite generous
when we assess our own listening skills.

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And the reason for that, of course,
is that we assess ourselves on our

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intent to listen and we assess other
people that are on their behavior

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and there is a gap, to say the least.

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And so the other thing when we're
developing psychological safety for

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others, for ourselves, is just to be able
to deeply reflect on whether we really

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are as good a listener as we think we are.

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And to deeply reflect on what does it mean
to give somebody a really good listening

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to, and how often do we actually do that?

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And when we've been listened to deeply,
it's often really quite profound.

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And the final thing I would say, and I've
mentioned it briefly, is the response.

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Changing culture and changing
conversational habits, one of the key

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most important areas for doing that is
in our response to when people speak up.

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And as I said, when we speak up,
and particularly if it's challenging

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or it goes against the grain,
we might do it a bit clumsily.

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We might not speak up very well.

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And so the thing that happens all the
time, and Amy and I actually wrote an

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article specifically on this in Harvard
Business Review, when that happens,

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rather than the listener understanding the
courage that has gone into what's happened

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and appreciating the attempt to speak up.

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They often respond in a way that just
completely closes that person down,

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and they don't then speak up again.

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Similarly, the person that speaks
up and gets that response doesn't

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really reflect fully and widely on
what they've learned and try again.

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So I really would love us to be
able to learn and reflect from these

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mistakes, as Amy would call them,
intelligent failures, actually.

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When we are trying to improve our
ability to speak up and listen up,

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of course we're gonna make mistakes.

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So we've gotta expect them and
then we've gotta learn from them.

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Those are intelligent failures.

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Matt Abrahams: So the components
of psychological safety first

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start with the willingness to
have the hard conversations, the

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willingness to engage in that way.

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It's thinking about how we show
up in terms of really being

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present and giving ourselves
space to have those conversations

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and creating space for others.

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Then this notion of the superiority
illusion, that we're not as good

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as we think we are at these things
and we need to work at them.

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And really taking the time to
listen deeply and actively, and

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that's not just nodding your
head and going uh-huh, uh-huh.

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We've had lots of conversations
with experts on listening.

00:15:55.670 --> 00:15:57.410
It's about paraphrasing.

00:15:57.410 --> 00:16:01.940
It's about acknowledging the emotion
that's in the moment, and then making

00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:06.170
sure that when somebody does speak up
or does contribute something that's

00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:10.220
vulnerable and exposed, that we really
respond in a way that's respectful

00:16:10.650 --> 00:16:12.345
and encourages it moving forward.

00:16:12.555 --> 00:16:15.435
Again, a lot of this
requires self-awareness.

00:16:16.215 --> 00:16:17.055
Well, there you have it.

00:16:17.145 --> 00:16:22.455
As promised, lots of useful insights
from Megan Reitz, including practical,

00:16:22.455 --> 00:16:26.925
tactical ideas to help you and your
team be more present and productive.

00:16:27.315 --> 00:16:31.035
I hope each of you explores
ways to help you be more mindful

00:16:31.035 --> 00:16:33.555
to maximize your mutuality.

00:16:35.615 --> 00:16:37.715
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

00:16:37.715 --> 00:16:39.575
Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:16:39.814 --> 00:16:43.135
To learn more about psychological
safety, listen to our episode 132

00:16:43.745 --> 00:16:47.105
with Amy Edmondson and to learn
more about leadership, listen

00:16:47.105 --> 00:16:49.505
to episode 148 with Irv Grouse.

00:16:50.165 --> 00:16:54.400
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.

00:16:55.170 --> 00:16:56.610
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:16:56.640 --> 00:16:59.010
With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

00:16:59.250 --> 00:17:02.640
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00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:08.069
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