257. Move Your Audience: Lessons From MLK You Should Use

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Matt Abrahams: Conviction and creativity
are critical for successful communication.

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My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm excited to
speak with Lerone Martin.

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Lerone is the Martin Luther King Jr.
Centennial professor in religious

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studies and African American
studies at Stanford University.

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He also serves as the director of
the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research

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and Education Institute at Stanford.

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His second book will be out soon.

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Well, welcome Lerone.

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I am so excited to have you here.

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We've known each other for a while and
we've been talking about doing this.

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Thanks for being here.

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Lerone Martin: Happy to be here.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Lerone Martin: Let's get started.

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Matt Abrahams: Every one of our episodes
of this show ends with me asking our

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guests the same question, who's a
communicator that they admire and why?

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And above all else, the two most
popular answers are Michelle Obama

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and Martin Luther King, Jr. I'm not
sure of your knowledge of Michelle

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Obama, but I certainly know you're an
expert in Martin Luther King, Jr. Why

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do you think so many people view him
as a great speaker and communicator?

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Lerone Martin: I think one of the
things that makes Martin so fascinating

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and so compelling as a speaker is
his ability to paint a picture.

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I think he was so good at taking
you on a journey and painting a

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picture, and then getting people
excited about what he was saying.

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And I think his ability to bring
out emotion, to bring out excitement

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in his listeners, I think is
one reason why people really

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gravitate to him as a preacher.

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And I also think his ability to
use his voice almost like a musical

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instrument, that's the other reason
that people are so moved by him.

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The musicality of his
voice, his pacing, his tone.

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I'm teaching a class right now
here on campus, and for some of

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the assignments, students actually
have to listen to his speeches.

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Obviously I could assign them to read
them, but I tell them they have to hear

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it and I want them to hear him, and I
want them to hear how audiences responded.

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And students are still to this
day, moved by his speeches.

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Even, you know, almost
over 60 years later.

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Matt Abrahams: The imagery that he's
able to create, the connection through

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that engagement and energy, and certainly
the way he used his voice are all, when

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combined together, I think what make
him so charismatic and so interesting.

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And these are skills we can all learn,
not to try to sound like him, but these

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are the same levers that we can use.

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Speaking of public speaking in, in
your new book, you look at Martin

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Luther King Jr's early years, is it
true that he received poor grades

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in public speaking in Oratory?

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Lerone Martin: He did.

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I mean, they were passing grades, but
they weren't a's, as you would expect.

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He participated in a speech
contest as a high school student.

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He won the high school contest and then
he went to the state competition and

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did not even place in that competition.

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When he got to college, he had to take
a course called Composition and Reading

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with this legendary professor at Morehouse
by the name of Gladstone Lewis Chandler.

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And he said that King had a great
voice, but he really struggled, um,

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showed potential in that course.

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And so he got a C in that
class as a public speaker.

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And then he went on to seminary and took
a preaching class in which he got a B. So,

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I think what that tells us is that this is
a skill that Martin developed over years.

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He had a great voice, his mother taught
him to sing at a very young age, so we

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had the musicality, but in terms of the
pacing, the organization, I think this

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is something he developed over time.

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And I think it speaks to us about how
we can develop this skill over time.

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Matt Abrahams: I'm curious, was
it mostly through repetition?

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Did he really invest time and effort
in improving his communication?

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Did he look to others who he admired?

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Lerone Martin: There are stories
of him practicing in the mirror.

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And then when he was off to seminary,
his father would have him come home

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every summer and take over the pulpit.

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So, he had those hours of
rehearsing and practicing in

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front of people at his church.

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And so he took it very seriously.

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And then he admired local
preachers, not as much his father.

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He felt his father was a bit
too fundamentalist and carried

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away too much with emotion.

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But he admired people like William Holmes
Borders, who was a local minister at

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Wheat Street Baptist Church in Atlanta.

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And these individuals were really
influential and shaped the way that

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he thought about public speaking.

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And he brought elements of their style,
his own style, the musicality he was

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taught from his mother, and he brought
all that together to produce the

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Martin Luther King Jr. that we know.

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Matt Abrahams: What I'm hearing
and that I hope everybody is

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hearing that we can all get better.

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Absolutely.

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And even somebody that we admire and is
noted for his oratory and speaking ability

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might not have started there, but it was
through practice, having role models.

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You know, if you wanna be a good speaker,
you gotta watch people speak, and

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speak yourself, and I appreciate that.

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Almost everybody is familiar with the
eloquence of Martin Luther King Jr's.

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I Have a Dream speech.

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I actually find his Nobel Prize
acceptance speech to be more

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rousing and better architected.

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Do you have a favorite speech,
sermon or writing of his, and

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if so, what is it and why?

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Lerone Martin: It's a great question.

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It depends on what day you ask me
about which speech i'll tell you,

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I've been a big fan of the speech
he gave here at Stanford in 1967.

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It's a speech called The Other America.

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Our Stanford Library has put it
on YouTube, you can watch it.

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What I love is that it's about 45
minutes and he doesn't stumble once.

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There's no manuscript.

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It's all coming from his heart
and mind, and it's a speech about

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poverty in America, and it's also
a speech about racism and war.

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And watching him hold this audience of
over a thousand Stanford undergraduates

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in the palm of his hand as he's delivering
this speech, I find extremely moving,

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and I try to watch it at least once a
year because I find it just so moving.

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Matt Abrahams: I adore the speech as well.

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I think it's very well done and
obviously having a connection to

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this institution makes it special.

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You mentioned in there that
it wasn't a manuscript.

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Can you share with us a little
bit of the history behind the

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famous I Have a Dream speech.

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Is it true that part of that, if
not most of it was extemporaneous?

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Lerone Martin: Yes.

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The, I Have a Dream part of the speech
towards the end and the repetition

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of that is something that he had not
written down that he was going to do.

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However, to our point earlier
about practice, he had used that

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refrain twice prior, once in
Detroit and once in South Carolina.

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It was a part of his repertoire, but
it was a part of the repertoire that

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he did not plan to use that day.

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And I like that idea in the sense that
you can have a manuscript prepared,

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but it's always great, I think, as a
public speaker to try your best, to be

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attuned to the moment, to be attuned to
your audience and to be open to perhaps

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deviating a bit in a public address.

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Matt Abrahams: I do a lot of work on
spontaneous speaking, speaking in the

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moment, and one of the fundamental
points I try to make is that you

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have to prepare to be spontaneous.

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An athlete does a lot of drills to prepare
for the moment that is spontaneous.

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And it sounds like in a similar
way, the I Have a Dream speech

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had some of those elements.

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He had practiced some of this but
hadn't intended, and for whatever

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reason in that moment, felt that was
the appropriate thing to bring about.

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And I think there's a lesson for all
of us in that as well, which is you

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can practice, you can think through
things, and then allow yourself in the

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moment to read the room, read the space.

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What amazes me is that was a very
big stage and a very important

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talk, and that he took that
opportunity to be spontaneous.

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I think many of us would've
stuck to the script that we had.

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Lerone Martin: But I like the way you said
though, about practice, the repetition

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will allow you to be spontaneous.

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I like that.

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And using the metaphor
of an athlete is so true.

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Thinking about Steph Curry and
LeBron James and others, like they

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do what they do and sometimes it's
impromptu, but that muscle memory

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right, enables them to do that.

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And I think approaching public speaking
like that, I love that metaphor.

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Matt Abrahams: It's that practice and
knowing that practice is preparing

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you for that is important as well.

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To know that in that moment I have
those skills and I can rely on

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them is really important, there's
a confidence that comes from that.

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As someone who's extensively studied Dr.
King's writings and speeches, I'd love

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for you to share with us some of the
techniques and devices that he would use.

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You've highlighted some already,
but he was excellent at using

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lots of different oratorical and
rhetorical devices to really engage.

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Can you share with us some of the ones
that you note or pay attention to?

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Lerone Martin: Absolutely.

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And I love the way he said that
'cause he is kind of a jazz man in

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that he pulls from different styles.

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So I think one style that we,
that you know first and foremost

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will be the experience of the
African American Baptist Church.

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His ability to use narrative and
story from the Bible to elucidate

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modern points, I think was something
he learned from the pulpit.

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Bringing pathos, bringing emotion
right to his speeches, that's

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something he learns from the pulpit
in the Black Baptist tradition.

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And part of that is organizing a sermon
around what some African American

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preachers have talked about, in
particular Samuel Dewitt Proctor, who

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went to the same seminary as King before
King, Crozier Theological Seminary.

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And he, in a book called The Sound of
the Trumpet, talked about organizing

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sermons along the lines of an antithesis.

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The world is so bad, things aren't
going well, and then a thesis,

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but God or the Bible says this.

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And then ending with a synthesis
about, now how are we then to live?

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What are we now called to do?

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And I think that King's structure
of his sermons often followed that.

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The world is bad.

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It may be racism or poverty or war.

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Here's what the Bible says, and
now here's how we ought to live.

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So I think the structure of the
African-American sermon, I think

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the emotion of it, I think is one
aspect we can look to for King.

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And then the other is, I think
what we talked about earlier, is

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just the pacing and the musicality.

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He is so good at emphasizing
certain words, slowing down,

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elongating certain phrases.

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So I think the musicality, the tonality,
I think that's another mechanism

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or device that he used so well.

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And finally, I think, you know,
of course, it's the content.

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I love the way that he not only
uses biblical stories, but King

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will also use examples from everyday
life to really elucidate his points.

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And I think in providing a story, you
bring your audience with you on a journey.

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And you are taking them somewhere.

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And I love the way that he does that, both
using the Bible, but everyday experiences.

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He will use examples of his own
personal life to elucidate a

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broader point, to connect people
around their shared humanity.

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And I think those sort
of techniques, right?

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It's the musicality, it's the structure
of the African American sermon, the

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emotion of the sermon and the ability
to use narrative and storytelling I

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think are some of the devices he used
and just made him the man that we know.

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Matt Abrahams: We don't have to
necessarily refer to the Bible, just

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making any reference to some commonly
understood experience or story can help.

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And he uses even more specific techniques
that I'd love to get your opinion on.

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He uses a lot of alliteration where
there's a rhyme in what he says.

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There's a technique called
anaphora, which is the repetition.

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The I have A Dream is repeated,
in his Nobel Prize speech

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he repeats the same phrases.

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And there's a sense of momentum, a sense
of passion that comes in that repetition.

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The use of analogies is so
powerful in a lot of his work.

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When you really dissect it, it's
fascinating to see how many different

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techniques he weaves together.

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And I think for many of us, we
can say that was Martin Luther

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King Jr. He was an expert at it.

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But we can all put some of
this into our communication.

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Do you find, trying to put some of
this stuff in your work, tell me a

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little bit about how you do that.

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I'd love to learn 'cause I'd like
to put even more in what I do.

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Lerone Martin: Well, what you just said
about repetition is what I try to do in my

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public speaking and some of my lectures,
because you do get a sense of momentum.

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He uses it in a speech, his last
actually speech on April 3rd.

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I mean, everyone knows the mountaintop
part, but before that, he goes on this

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long discourse about if I had sneezed
and he's telling a story about that

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he had been stabbed in the 1950s.

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It was stabbed by a letter
opener by a a mentally ill woman.

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And the doctors had told him it
just missed his aorta, and if he had

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sneezed, then he would've not survived.

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And so he uses that and says, if I
had sneezed, I wouldn't have been

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here in 1961 when this happened.

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If I had sneezed, I wouldn't
have been here in 1962.

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And it brings it all the way back
up to 68 with this momentum that

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then say, and now here we are.

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And now we're going to move forward and
continue the progress in American society.

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I love the use of repetition
in that regard because it does

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bring your audience with you.

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It's almost like you're on a
rollercoaster and you're going tick,

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tick, tick up to the top, and then
you're about ready to take off.

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So I like to use that.

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And as well as everyday experiences
of shared humanity that I try

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to use for my students, right?

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So I know that all of them are probably
not sleeping well or all of them are

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probably eating certain types of foods
or they're stressing out 'cause we're

00:13:06.005 --> 00:13:07.115
getting to the end of the quarter.

00:13:07.475 --> 00:13:12.305
I try to use those experiences to relate
to the course material, to understand

00:13:12.305 --> 00:13:15.035
that this is a shared experience,
that all of us are going through this

00:13:15.035 --> 00:13:17.525
together and there's a way forward.

00:13:17.610 --> 00:13:21.720
So I think that I tried to use some
of the stuff that King used as well

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.340
in my lectures and my public speaking.

00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:26.010
Matt Abrahams: And I know from what the
students say, it's very well received.

00:13:26.310 --> 00:13:28.830
I wanna highlight on
this notion of momentum.

00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:33.030
The feeling and experience of
movement that happens in really

00:13:33.030 --> 00:13:34.770
potent, powerful speeches.

00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:36.600
And I think he was a master of that.

00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:40.950
And I think all of us can tap into, it's
not just talking about movement, but

00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:42.990
it's actually giving us an experience.

00:13:43.335 --> 00:13:45.855
Saying words more quickly,
more slowly repeating.

00:13:45.855 --> 00:13:48.225
These are all tools that give that,
and that's really, really helpful.

00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.930
Something else that's really powerful
about Martin Luther King Jr's

00:13:51.930 --> 00:13:56.250
communication is that he was rooted
in a clear purpose to achieve justice.

00:13:56.550 --> 00:14:00.510
I'd like you to step out of your role
as a, as an academic teacher, how can

00:14:00.569 --> 00:14:04.890
contemporary leaders and managers ensure
their messages are anchored in something

00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:10.319
that's genuine, a purpose, rather than
appearing as just performative statements?

00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:12.270
Lerone Martin: Yeah, I think conviction.

00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:18.345
I think you've just, you've really
got to be completely convinced of

00:14:18.345 --> 00:14:21.495
the cause that you're speaking about
or the issue you're addressing.

00:14:21.555 --> 00:14:24.915
'Cause I think in today's world,
people can spot when people are

00:14:24.915 --> 00:14:28.695
fraudulent or when people are
just, as you said, just performing.

00:14:29.085 --> 00:14:32.745
I think that you've gotta be completely
convinced and completely convicted

00:14:32.745 --> 00:14:36.165
of what you're saying, because if
you're not convinced it's gonna be

00:14:36.165 --> 00:14:37.635
difficult for you to convince others.

00:14:37.875 --> 00:14:41.880
And I think King was completely
convinced about at least where

00:14:41.880 --> 00:14:45.090
he thought America could get to
or where he wanted America to go.

00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:48.480
He wasn't always sure about what
was the best method to get there,

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.890
other than of course non-violence.

00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.550
But he was always convinced that
what he was doing was right.

00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:55.950
And I think that's a lesson for all of us.

00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:00.150
I think we have to ourselves be convinced
and convicted of what we're talking

00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:02.160
about before we can convince others.

00:15:02.310 --> 00:15:03.900
And I think that King shows us that.

00:15:04.375 --> 00:15:06.594
Matt Abrahams: That notion of
conviction is really powerful.

00:15:06.594 --> 00:15:09.985
It takes reflection To get there, you
have to think about what's important

00:15:09.985 --> 00:15:13.885
to me, and then the next step is,
how do I manifest that in my own

00:15:13.885 --> 00:15:16.074
actions so that I'm seen as authentic.

00:15:16.285 --> 00:15:18.954
It's very easy as a leader
to talk about values.

00:15:18.954 --> 00:15:22.344
It's a little more challenging
to live them, to to show them.

00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:25.790
I always talk with my students
about credibility comes not

00:15:25.790 --> 00:15:27.079
just from telling, but showing.

00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:30.860
And so finding ways to show through the
stories you tell, through the actions,

00:15:30.860 --> 00:15:32.930
through who you highlight and uplift.

00:15:33.140 --> 00:15:36.140
So I really appreciate that notion of
conviction and I challenge everybody

00:15:36.140 --> 00:15:39.740
listening regardless of your role to
really think about what has you convicted,

00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:40.980
what is it that's important to you?

00:15:42.599 --> 00:15:43.739
This has been fantastic.

00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:46.140
Before we end, I'd like to
ask everybody three questions.

00:15:46.140 --> 00:15:49.410
One, I make up just for you, and two are
similar to everyone I've interviewed.

00:15:49.770 --> 00:15:54.089
I'm curious if you had this moment
to share with younger people

00:15:54.359 --> 00:15:56.400
the importance of communication.

00:15:56.489 --> 00:15:58.140
Share with me why it's so important.

00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:01.260
I mean, you and I prior to the interview,
we're talking about AI and how AI

00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:04.589
is being used, and certainly it's a
wonderful tool to help with communication.

00:16:04.645 --> 00:16:07.845
But, from your perspective, somebody
who studied one of the greats and

00:16:07.845 --> 00:16:11.355
many of the greats in communication,
why is it so important for a young

00:16:11.355 --> 00:16:14.444
person to learn how to communicate
authentically with conviction?

00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:19.380
Lerone Martin: Well, I think the first
thing would be to inspire others.

00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:22.140
If we're thinking about Martin
Luther King Jr. one of the things

00:16:22.140 --> 00:16:25.440
that he always said was, life's
most persistent and urgent question

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.670
is, what are you doing for others?

00:16:26.880 --> 00:16:31.515
And I think what he shows us is how
communication can inspire others to dream.

00:16:31.875 --> 00:16:33.405
Good communication, I should say.

00:16:33.495 --> 00:16:35.655
So I think that's one thing
I would tell a young adult.

00:16:35.745 --> 00:16:40.035
How do you wanna inspire others
and move others and help to

00:16:40.035 --> 00:16:41.385
have an impact on the world?

00:16:41.564 --> 00:16:43.125
Great communicators can do that.

00:16:43.305 --> 00:16:46.275
Even if you have great ideas, if
you don't know how to communicate

00:16:46.275 --> 00:16:50.115
them in an effective manner, the
greatness of your ideas or the

00:16:50.115 --> 00:16:52.035
genius of your ideas can get lost.

00:16:52.125 --> 00:16:55.095
So I would say to a young person,
if you really want to have an impact

00:16:55.095 --> 00:16:58.905
on your community, you want to
inspire others, learn how to be a

00:16:58.905 --> 00:17:02.625
great communicator, and I think that
you'll find you'll have an impact on

00:17:02.625 --> 00:17:04.305
your community and those around you.

00:17:04.815 --> 00:17:08.714
Matt Abrahams: Inspiration is so
important and tools can't necessarily

00:17:08.714 --> 00:17:12.165
give you that, and it's not just for
young people, I think all of us benefit

00:17:12.165 --> 00:17:15.075
when we think about how we inspire
others through our communication.

00:17:15.075 --> 00:17:16.065
I really appreciate it.

00:17:16.395 --> 00:17:18.285
So I'm gonna modify my
second question for you.

00:17:18.315 --> 00:17:20.625
I always ask people, who's a
communicator you admire and why?

00:17:20.625 --> 00:17:23.685
But I'm gonna remove one from the
table for you, beyond Martin Luther

00:17:23.685 --> 00:17:27.015
King Jr., who is a communicator
that you admire and why?

00:17:27.469 --> 00:17:29.399
Lerone Martin: You know, I have
to go with who you started with.

00:17:29.399 --> 00:17:33.479
I'll join the crowd and say that I've
always been impressed with Michelle Obama.

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:34.800
She's a great storyteller.

00:17:35.219 --> 00:17:39.000
And she can take you along on a
journey, she'll make a point, and then

00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:44.399
she'll tell an amazing story that's
heartfelt, that puts you in the moment.

00:17:44.699 --> 00:17:48.629
And she finds these common human
experiences and say, we all know what it's

00:17:48.629 --> 00:17:52.770
like to come home from work and then be
stressed about, okay, what's for dinner?

00:17:52.770 --> 00:17:53.610
Are the kids okay?

00:17:53.614 --> 00:17:53.745
Right.

00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:55.620
That takes you there.

00:17:55.740 --> 00:18:01.080
And then her conviction, she's
always able to convey her lectures

00:18:01.080 --> 00:18:02.610
and her speeches with feeling.

00:18:02.610 --> 00:18:04.740
You always get the
sense that this is real.

00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:06.330
So I'm a big fan of hers.

00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:08.250
I'm also a big fan of Barack.

00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:13.260
I think Barack does a great job
of reminding us, or at least

00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:16.659
attempting to remind America
of our values and who we are.

00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:18.645
And calling us to something greater.

00:18:18.855 --> 00:18:23.655
I love that when Barack speaks, he's
so good at painting the American story.

00:18:23.774 --> 00:18:25.875
He embodies it, as we
talked about earlier, right?

00:18:25.875 --> 00:18:27.855
I mean, his own story about his family.

00:18:28.245 --> 00:18:31.270
And I love the way that he
calls us into something greater.

00:18:32.040 --> 00:18:34.710
I've heard him on podcasts,
I've heard him give public

00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:36.600
lectures and I think he's good.

00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:39.780
So I, I guess you could say I'm
a fan of the Obama family when

00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:41.100
it comes to public speaking.

00:18:41.100 --> 00:18:43.770
I think they're very good and they're
both very gifted in their own way.

00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:47.370
Matt Abrahams: Michelle Obama's ability
to tell a story in much the same way

00:18:47.370 --> 00:18:50.400
that Martin Luther King Jr. Could tell
a story, they tell stories differently,

00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:52.080
but use them for the same purpose.

00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.730
To really connect, to demonstrate, to
humanize, and that's a very powerful tool.

00:18:56.790 --> 00:18:57.660
Thank you for sharing that.

00:18:57.965 --> 00:18:58.685
Final question.

00:18:58.804 --> 00:19:03.365
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:19:03.754 --> 00:19:05.524
Lerone Martin: First three ingredients.

00:19:05.824 --> 00:19:06.814
Oh, wow.

00:19:06.905 --> 00:19:07.205
I like that.

00:19:07.995 --> 00:19:09.495
I wanna start with conviction.

00:19:09.764 --> 00:19:14.264
I think you gotta do, reflect
and be convinced of your message.

00:19:14.355 --> 00:19:17.355
And then I think, of course, it's
the structure, it's the format, it's

00:19:17.355 --> 00:19:19.095
this, you said the GPS, the mapping.

00:19:19.425 --> 00:19:22.995
If you're convinced to know where
you want to go, now you have to then

00:19:22.995 --> 00:19:24.254
plan how you're gonna get there.

00:19:24.435 --> 00:19:25.450
And then I would say pacing.

00:19:26.010 --> 00:19:27.720
What pace do you wanna travel?

00:19:27.870 --> 00:19:29.760
Fast, slow, or moderate it?

00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:30.000
Right?

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.650
Do you know where is
there gonna be rest stops?

00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.230
There gonna be places where you're
gonna park and linger a little longer.

00:19:34.379 --> 00:19:36.570
So I think those would
be the three for me.

00:19:36.570 --> 00:19:39.720
I think it'd be conviction, and I
think it'd be structure or mapping,

00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:41.190
and then I think I'd say pacing.

00:19:41.595 --> 00:19:43.065
Matt Abrahams: I love the way
you wrapped up that answer.

00:19:43.065 --> 00:19:45.225
A true teacher will summarize in the end.

00:19:45.225 --> 00:19:46.905
Uh, you make my job really easy.

00:19:47.115 --> 00:19:49.395
Conviction is all about
your focus, your North Star.

00:19:49.515 --> 00:19:52.125
Structure is about how do I
package it in a way that's

00:19:52.125 --> 00:19:53.775
meaningful with high fidelity?

00:19:53.865 --> 00:19:56.745
And then pacing is you can have a
great message, but one delivered

00:19:56.745 --> 00:19:58.905
poorly isn't gonna be as effective.

00:19:59.295 --> 00:20:00.255
Thank you so much.

00:20:00.255 --> 00:20:03.795
Thank you not only for sharing your
thoughts, but for also helping us

00:20:03.795 --> 00:20:07.629
dissect and better understand the
importance of communication in general,

00:20:07.629 --> 00:20:11.379
but specifically around how Martin
Luther King Jr. was so effective.

00:20:11.590 --> 00:20:13.629
I appreciate your time and
thanks for being with us.

00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:14.920
Lerone Martin: It was an
honor and a privilege.

00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:15.639
Thank you for having me.

00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.810
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:20:19.810 --> 00:20:22.060
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:25.000
To learn more about how to
deliver compelling communication

00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.080
listen to episode 192.

00:20:27.580 --> 00:20:32.620
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.525
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
thanks to Podium Podcast company.

00:20:37.005 --> 00:20:40.275
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