251. How to Stop Performing and Start Communicating with Presence

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Matt Abrahams: Effective communication
is about presence, not performance.

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My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I'm really excited to speak
with my friend Dr. Kate Mason.

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Kate is a world champion debater,
executive communication coach, and author.

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She helps senior executives
navigate critical and challenging

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communication situations along with
what she calls the tricky act of

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communicating while female at work.

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Her new book is called Powerfully Likable.

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Well, welcome Kate.

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I am excited to have you here in person.

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I know the Bay Area used to be your
home, and now you live in Australia,

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which is one of my favorite places.

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Thanks for being here.

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Kate Mason: Oh, I'm so
pleased to be here, Matt.

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Thanks for having me.

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Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Kate Mason: Let's do it.

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Matt Abrahams: All right.

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Confidence is a big theme
in your book and your work.

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In fact, you have a chapter
called Kill Your Confidence.

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You argue that confidence is
a supremely unhelpful concept.

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As someone who has spent a lot of my life
helping people to feel more confident

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in their communication, can you help us
understand your thoughts on confidence?

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Kate Mason: I think we're aligned,
Matt, on wanting people to be confident,

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but what I find is the interesting
part is when people tell someone else,

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you've just gotta be more confident.

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And there's a couple of reasons.

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One, I think it's supremely
unactionable feedback.

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It's the outcome, but not the process.

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So it's a little bit like
telling someone just be healthier

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or win a gold medal, right?

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It sounds good in theory,
but like, how do I get there?

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And the process is so different for all
of us, that it's not about following

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a listicle or three steps to, it, it's
nuanced and it requires some thought.

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So that's one of the reasons.

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I think the more important reason is
that when we tell someone to be more

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confident, we actually get them out of
their surroundings and into their head.

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So we start self surveilling and
being very cognizant of every

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movement, like was that confident?

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Did I sound confident?

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Am I looking confident?

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And what I want people to do
is actually get out of their

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head and into the meeting.

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So am I being of service?

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Am I connecting?

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Am I listening?

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And that actually ultimately looks
confident but we're not thinking

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about it as the main driver.

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Matt Abrahams: So it's not that we
don't want people confident, it's

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we don't want people in their head
worried about being confident.

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So can you share with us how you
help people to feel more confident,

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and therefore, act more confidently?

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Kate Mason: Yeah, so a lot of
it is, I think authenticity is

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an overused word these days.

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It's lost its meaning a little bit.

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But my main philosophy is how do we
reduce the delta between your real

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self and that corporate persona?

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Because I think the bigger that delta
is, the more performative we are at

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work especially, the harder it is to
communicate effectively and comfortably.

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Because it's exhausting.

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It's draining.

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But if we can bring that closer
to actually who we are and work

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out what are the things we already
have at our disposal, am I a good

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rapport builder or a good listener?

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That's where an excellent
communication can come from.

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So that's my mission to
make that delta smaller.

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Matt Abrahams: Sure, and
that makes a lot of sense.

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It sounds to me like people could
take an inventory of what works

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for them and then try to bring
that forward into the situation.

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And I like what you said earlier, if
we approach it as, I am in service

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of these people, or I'm here to add
value, that changes the dynamic.

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It's not, I'm here to perform
and they are evaluating me.

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So I like this idea of bringing your true
self where you have strengths and seeing

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yourself as in service of or part of this,
and that takes that spotlight off of you.

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Kate Mason: It really does,
and no one ever says, thanks so

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much for that confident meeting.

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They say, thanks so much for your ideas,
for the brainstorm, for listening.

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So as much as we can invest in
those areas, that's actually where

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the generative stuff happens.

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Matt Abrahams: It's amazing how much we
can do by how we frame our circumstances,

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especially around confidence.

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And if we lean into our
strengths, we can go in feeling

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more comfortable and confident.

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So thank you for that.

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In a related way, you spend
time discussing imposing

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syndrome, not imposter syndrome.

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What is imposing syndrome and how
does it show up in communication

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and what can we do about it?

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Kate Mason: Yeah, so imposing syndrome is
what I call a series of behaviors where

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we are afraid to make an imposition on
someone else, and it usually shows up when

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we are asking for time or for resources
or for someone's energy on something.

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And we say things like, it'll just
take two seconds, or, I'm probably

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not the expert, or I'm sure you've
already thought about this, right?

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We are so reluctant to cause a fuss or
to ruffle feathers that before we've even

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actually got to the ask, kind of taken
our legs out from under us in doing so.

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And what it actually does in practice
is it diminishes the ask itself.

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I assume that me taking two
seconds of your time is not to

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show you something very important.

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And by extension it minimizes
ourselves that maybe we aren't

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worthy of taking up your time.

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And so one of the things I work
with, particularly folks I coach, is.

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Let's think about what is pushing that
resistance when you're making the ask.

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And let's think about, again,
reframing that ask in a way

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that's just more comfortable.

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Like, Matt, I'm gonna put thirty minutes
in with you next week to talk about X,

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Y, Z. Let me know if that works for you.

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It's the same ask, but it's
a very different mindset

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with which we approach it.

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Matt Abrahams: So what we do is we hedge
when we're afraid that we are going

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to impose, and therefore we come at it
with less strength, less power, and we

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devalue, potentially, in the eyes of the
person or people we want to meet with the

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value of what it is we're talking about.

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Are there ways that you coach people to
become aware of themselves doing this?

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This, this to me, strikes me as just very
habitual, especially when you might be

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new to an organization or focusing on
something that's a new topic to yourself.

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How can we be alert to the
fact that we are actually a

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victim of imposing syndrome?

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Kate Mason: Yeah.

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Part of it is listening.

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When I'm with a client, I will notice and
reflect back, but part of it is also, you

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spoke earlier about taking an inventory.

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I really encourage that.

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Where did you feel great today
in your communication, right?

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Was there a meeting that you walked
out of and thought that went so well?

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You know, it landed exactly as I wanted.

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And were there other moments where
you felt reticence or resistance?

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Take note of those too because they're
very instructive to tell us, I noticed,

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you know, there was a power imbalance
in that room and I felt smaller

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or more junior, and I found myself
shrinking or disclaiming or hedging.

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That can just be a good first step.

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Just mapping the terrain to then decide,
are those things serving me and maybe do

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I wanna change them, experiment with them,
or maybe I wanna keep them as is as well.

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Matt Abrahams: I am a huge fan and
advocate for reflection like that.

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Many of us are just so glad to have
survived or gotten through whatever

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that gauntlet of communication was,
that we don't turn around and reflect.

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And I love what you said about not
just reflecting on what went well,

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but look at what didn't go so well
and are there patterns and behaviors

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that you're invoking, or perhaps
not, that you want to work on.

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So it's not enough just
to complete the task.

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It's valuable to go back.

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I like to tell my students there's
that definition of insanity doing

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the same thing over and over again,
expecting different results, and

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that's how many of us communicate.

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So I really like this idea of
reflecting on the activities

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and the communication you have.

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Thank you for that.

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I do wanna know a little bit about
your thoughts on imposter syndrome

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because many people I know, myself
included, certainly have moments

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where I feel like I am an imposter
in this room or compared to others.

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How do you see that play out
and what do you advise people

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to do to manage some of that?

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Kate Mason: My thoughts on
imposter syndrome are that all

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of the wrong people have it.

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I would love to have a global
redistribution system whereby everyone

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who feels like they have it could just
mentally donate it to somebody else.

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To my mind, the word imposter
always invokes some sort of

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deception, and I always ask people,
do you feel that you are trying

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to intentionally deceive anybody?

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The answer is usually no.

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Of course not.

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I just feel like I'm new
or I'm inexperienced.

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And so the answer is you might be new
or inexperienced, and that's okay.

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In fact, that's entirely reasonable and
normal, and it's maybe not all on you.

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Maybe the institution hasn't been
as welcoming and there's a lot of

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great research out there around the
institutions needing to also shift to

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accommodate folks to feel more welcome.

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So I think when we, again, get into our
head about it, it's easy and seductive to

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stay there and self-flagellate about it.

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A nicer way to think about it is
if I am self-aware enough that

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I am experiencing this feeling,
I'm probably doing a great job.

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So maybe just put it down and
get to the work and you'll

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start feeling a lot better.

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Matt Abrahams: What a really cool tool.

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If I am feeling like I don't fit or
I'm feeling like I'm an imposter,

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the fact that you are having that
feeling probably signals that you're

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not because you're self-aware.

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And what I often will coach, and what
I try to remind myself, is that often

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in these situations I was invited.

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Or there was an expectation that
there was value that I would bring

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and reminding myself of that helps
dampen down some of those feelings.

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So thank you for that.

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I really like this idea of redistributing
those who feel the imposter syndrome.

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You write about the tension between
being agreeable and being assertive.

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Can you define what those concepts are and
why they're tricky, especially for women.

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Kate Mason: So as I came into
leadership myself, I always felt that

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there were really only two options.

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And I thought of them as, you could
be powerful, you know, high authority,

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no friends, and you could be likable,
low authority, and lots of friends.

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And I always thought that was
a really unfair binary, right?

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It didn't seem accurate and it
also didn't seem particularly fair.

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And I think that's exactly that
assertive versus agreeable tension a

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lot of us, particularly women, feel
although some men feel too, which

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is, how do I strike this balance?

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That chasm feels really
difficult to navigate.

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I think about those two things
as not ends of a binary, but of

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as actual partners or neighbors.

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So instead of feeling like there's
this one way choice or only one of

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those doors to take, actually, it's
often in the counterintuitive couplings

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of words or language that might feel
dissonant, but actually can be very

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generative when we bring it together.

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So I talk to people about what
interesting, counterintuitive things

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might you identify with, and what
leadership style or communication

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style can we bring out of that?

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So I hear fantastic things like,
I'm competitively calm, right?

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Or I'm ambitiously communal,
or I'm powerfully likable.

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These interesting neighbors or friends
that actually often, particularly

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women, who may not see their
communication style at top levels of

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leadership can feel like, no, wait.

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That's exactly who I am.

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I'm ambitious because I want the
best, but I'm communal because

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I want my whole team to succeed.

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So I think part of this is about
giving ourselves and others language

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to inhabit and be able to summon
that self in our communication.

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Matt Abrahams: I like that you are
saying these are not binary, that there,

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there's a way to blend them together.

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I envisioned, as you were talking
about the yin yang symbol where

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they feed into each other.

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And I really like that activity
of thinking about different parts

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of your personality and put them
together and really think about how

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you show up in that duality, right?

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In that tension.

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And as you were speaking, I'm thinking I
am communally curious, you know, because

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curiosity can often be very self-centered
or selfish, but I really believe that I am

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communally curious and I love that idea.

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So once somebody has identified
that, do you help them see the next

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step of how do you embody that?

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How do you be that?

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Kate Mason: Yeah, so I have an exercise
in the book actually, which goes

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through that, but yes, exactly right.

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It's about thinking instead of
this performative professional self

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that we sort of envisage, right?

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High heels, briefcase, suit.

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What are those words doing for us?

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What do they activate in us?

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Is it that I'm really good at relationship
building or very good at detecting how

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to manage my team and seeing the feelings
in them, or whatever it might be.

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We understand what that is,
and then I work on practices of

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essentially working how could I
summon that person, if you like?

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Which sounds a little woo woo, but
how do I bring them to the fore

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when I'm gonna write an email?

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What does an email from a
communally curious person look like?

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And oftentimes that's the unlock
people need to be like, oh gosh, I

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don't need to be sitting here worrying
about the number of exclamation points

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or how many times I've said thank
you, or sorry, or all these things

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that I think we get caught up on.

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And more quickly go to that self-talking,
which is usually a much easier way to

00:12:34.455 --> 00:12:36.525
foreground them or bring them into being.

00:12:36.775 --> 00:12:40.135
So I find some of the coaching is
just like, let's work on bringing them

00:12:40.135 --> 00:12:43.915
to the fore because if they're real
parts of you, they're there already.

00:12:44.215 --> 00:12:48.445
I think of it as like an uncovering rather
than a totally building from scratch.

00:12:48.685 --> 00:12:51.925
Matt Abrahams: I hear in that both
a recognition of what's there and

00:12:51.925 --> 00:12:55.225
then giving yourself permission
to bring that part of you forward.

00:12:55.345 --> 00:12:59.965
If you were to go to an AI tool and
say, write an email in the tone of

00:12:59.965 --> 00:13:02.935
this, or with this approach, it would
do that, and what you're actually

00:13:02.935 --> 00:13:04.500
saying is just do that with yourself.

00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:06.810
Kate Mason: Be a better prompt
engineer of your own self.

00:13:08.189 --> 00:13:10.740
Matt Abrahams: And while you know
I say that with tongue in cheek,

00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.330
I think there's power in that.

00:13:12.330 --> 00:13:15.689
It really invites us to pull
forward who we are and to worry

00:13:15.689 --> 00:13:19.500
less about who we think others
want us to be, or we should be.

00:13:19.905 --> 00:13:20.205
Kate Mason: Yes.

00:13:20.205 --> 00:13:23.895
That's really key, especially I think
in corporate or work contexts where

00:13:23.895 --> 00:13:27.735
there's enough surveillance and self
surveillance going on without us

00:13:27.735 --> 00:13:29.625
always bringing that attention there.

00:13:29.625 --> 00:13:31.635
So it counters that quite nicely.

00:13:31.665 --> 00:13:32.595
I think you're exactly right.

00:13:32.775 --> 00:13:36.285
Matt Abrahams: And what I've found in my
own life is when you do bring out that

00:13:36.285 --> 00:13:40.645
true part of your personality and you
communicate in that way, others feel more

00:13:40.645 --> 00:13:44.485
comfortable bringing out their own, and
all of a sudden you have this authenticity

00:13:44.485 --> 00:13:46.675
party that you might not always get.

00:13:46.675 --> 00:13:49.825
And so it can help you, but
it might also help your group,

00:13:49.825 --> 00:13:51.235
your team, your organization.

00:13:51.505 --> 00:13:55.194
I really like that idea of
combining disparate parts, so

00:13:55.194 --> 00:13:56.185
thank you for sharing that.

00:13:56.495 --> 00:13:59.435
As you well know, and you and I have
talked about this often in our other types

00:13:59.435 --> 00:14:04.625
of communication, that communication isn't
just about what we say, but how we say it.

00:14:04.625 --> 00:14:08.315
In fact, sometimes our non-verbal
presence, what you do with your

00:14:08.315 --> 00:14:11.225
body and your voice, is more
important than what you say.

00:14:11.525 --> 00:14:15.485
What advice and guidance do you
have around how we say what we

00:14:15.485 --> 00:14:19.115
say that can help us feel more
confident, more powerful, more

00:14:19.115 --> 00:14:20.495
belonging in our environments?

00:14:21.180 --> 00:14:22.440
Kate Mason: It's such
a beautiful question.

00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.910
I have a lot of people who come to me and
say, I need to be more warm, or I need to

00:14:26.910 --> 00:14:29.820
be more insert your new adjective here.

00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:32.910
And I say, I'm not gonna help
you be more warm if that's not

00:14:32.910 --> 00:14:34.590
what's coming naturally to you.

00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:38.310
What I am gonna help you is work
out the thing you're already doing,

00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:41.520
the thing you're already saying,
so let's work out how to make that

00:14:41.520 --> 00:14:43.230
comfortable for people around you.

00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:46.180
So a good example maybe to
help illustrate, I work with a

00:14:46.180 --> 00:14:49.329
woman who, she would call her
language pretty transactional.

00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.360
She goes into kind of an
abrupt action mode, right?

00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:53.530
She's very incisive.

00:14:53.530 --> 00:14:54.579
She goes straight to the point.

00:14:54.790 --> 00:14:57.520
And she came to me saying, I really
need to be more warm because I've

00:14:57.520 --> 00:15:00.430
had this feedback that I'm not
friendly or I'm not approachable.

00:15:00.635 --> 00:15:04.985
I thought the last thing I wanna do is
make this woman step outside and be very

00:15:04.985 --> 00:15:09.185
performative when it just wasn't in her
natural vibe from having met with her.

00:15:09.245 --> 00:15:11.885
And so I said, a tool here you
could use, which I think a lot

00:15:11.885 --> 00:15:14.975
of people could use in different
situations, is to just call it out.

00:15:15.185 --> 00:15:18.915
So she could say something like, if she
was here, Matt, I tend to go straight to

00:15:18.915 --> 00:15:21.165
action mode and just get into the details.

00:15:21.375 --> 00:15:24.734
Forgive me if that feels blunt,
but I really want us to get into

00:15:24.734 --> 00:15:26.084
this and get you to a good place.

00:15:26.204 --> 00:15:30.584
Suddenly, she's given both self permission
to do what she was going to do to inhabit

00:15:30.584 --> 00:15:34.094
that place that feels comfortable, but
she's also opened a doorway for her

00:15:34.094 --> 00:15:37.875
interlocutors to feel like, oh, thank
goodness, you know, she doesn't hate me.

00:15:38.165 --> 00:15:42.215
Or I understand the scaffolding
around that type of communication.

00:15:42.455 --> 00:15:45.725
And you could do that say with
a resting concentrating face,

00:15:45.785 --> 00:15:47.165
which some of us have, right?

00:15:47.165 --> 00:15:50.465
We have a flat affect and the other
person thinks, oh no, like they

00:15:50.465 --> 00:15:51.815
must hate this idea or something.

00:15:51.995 --> 00:15:54.755
And you could say, look, I tend to
have a resting concentrating face.

00:15:54.815 --> 00:15:58.475
I'm really concentrating hard and I wanna
make sure I'm taking in all the details.

00:15:58.475 --> 00:16:00.695
So let me do that, and
then I'm good to go.

00:16:01.030 --> 00:16:03.910
Matt Abrahams: I also like that you're
signaling self-awareness, concern for

00:16:03.910 --> 00:16:08.199
the other person, which buys you a lot
in terms of credibility and connection.

00:16:08.410 --> 00:16:11.800
Thinking about that preamble, it
needs to be short and sweet I think,

00:16:11.829 --> 00:16:13.150
'cause you could go on too long.

00:16:13.150 --> 00:16:15.969
But I do think that it could
be helpful to prepare people.

00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:20.500
I often use the analogy of, as a
communicator, you're like a tour guide.

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:23.470
Part of what a good tour guide
does is always sets expectations

00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:26.980
so that the people on the tour
can relax and just enjoy it.

00:16:26.980 --> 00:16:28.600
And what you're suggesting
is very similar.

00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.900
You come in and you preview what's
going to happen in the interaction.

00:16:32.140 --> 00:16:33.130
I like that idea.

00:16:33.375 --> 00:16:37.575
Have you noticed certain behaviors,
physical behaviors, or way people

00:16:37.575 --> 00:16:42.015
use their voice that actually works
against them in terms of demonstrating

00:16:42.015 --> 00:16:46.365
warmth, connection, presence, anything
that you've seen that you might call

00:16:46.365 --> 00:16:48.165
out and maybe give advice to avoid?

00:16:48.435 --> 00:16:52.155
Kate Mason: I think the crossed arms is
always one that I do see a lot, and of

00:16:52.155 --> 00:16:55.965
course it looks defensive, right, straight
away, and I have people say to me, it's

00:16:55.965 --> 00:17:00.635
just comfortable, but it looks like
you're bracing for impact or pushing away.

00:17:00.705 --> 00:17:01.745
That is one I noticed.

00:17:01.745 --> 00:17:05.135
Your arms can be, if you just
move them down, it can signal

00:17:05.135 --> 00:17:06.454
quite a big optical shift.

00:17:06.575 --> 00:17:10.775
That's one of the ones I find is
maybe the most impactful in terms

00:17:10.775 --> 00:17:13.415
of demonstrating optically openness.

00:17:13.474 --> 00:17:16.740
It is slightly performative 'cause
I am saying do something different

00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:21.090
with your body, but the impact of
it is so helpful and so revelatory

00:17:21.090 --> 00:17:22.170
that I think it's worth it.

00:17:22.290 --> 00:17:22.890
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:26.700
And I appreciate the desire not to
give direct performative advice because

00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:31.080
it's not about the performance, but
anytime you can be open, signals a

00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:32.850
connection and a willingness to connect.

00:17:32.970 --> 00:17:36.180
Many people gesture right in front of
their chest, which is a closed way.

00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:38.855
If you just gesture a little
more broadly you're more open

00:17:38.855 --> 00:17:40.685
and being open is helpful.

00:17:40.835 --> 00:17:44.165
Now, I know before you got into the
communication coaching that you do,

00:17:44.165 --> 00:17:47.405
and you are an expert at that, you
used to do executive communication work

00:17:47.405 --> 00:17:51.485
within firms, big impactful firms that
we all know and use their products of.

00:17:51.725 --> 00:17:55.534
What insights did you glean that can
help all of us when it comes to defining

00:17:55.534 --> 00:17:59.735
a message or cascading a message
internally or keeping it tight and clear?

00:17:59.825 --> 00:18:03.095
Give us sort of the lessons Kate
learned when you were doing executive

00:18:03.095 --> 00:18:04.639
comms for really important companies.

00:18:05.315 --> 00:18:06.395
Kate Mason: Gosh, so many.

00:18:06.545 --> 00:18:10.925
I think the most surprising one maybe,
because these are big machines that

00:18:10.925 --> 00:18:15.465
have a lot of spokespeople and a lot of
cogs in the machine, I think one of our

00:18:15.495 --> 00:18:19.775
VPs at one of those companies used to
say repetition never spoils the prayer.

00:18:19.925 --> 00:18:25.325
And I always loved that because it feels
like as smart, interesting people, each

00:18:25.325 --> 00:18:27.095
time we need to reinvent the wheel.

00:18:27.245 --> 00:18:30.575
Each interview we do, or each time we're
talking in front of an all hands or a

00:18:30.575 --> 00:18:35.435
town hall, we must construct this fabulous
new set of metaphors or arguments.

00:18:35.645 --> 00:18:39.485
And actually all of the research, as
you will know, points to the opposite.

00:18:39.485 --> 00:18:43.085
That people take many times to hear
the same thing to really absorb it,

00:18:43.235 --> 00:18:47.075
many times even in different ways,
or different channels, different

00:18:47.075 --> 00:18:49.085
metaphors, but really the same message.

00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:53.480
That was interesting to me because I came
in thinking I need new talking points, or

00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:57.710
a whole new messaging deck, and actually
it was the same deck and the same points.

00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:02.990
And really letting down your intellectual
curiosity for a moment and focusing on,

00:19:02.990 --> 00:19:07.010
no, this role is actually in the purpose
or in the service of education, and

00:19:07.010 --> 00:19:08.990
that comes with a degree of repetition.

00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:14.345
But I can't impart that enough with
people because sometimes the chaotic

00:19:14.345 --> 00:19:18.545
messaging you see in companies is actually
coming from probably well-intentioned

00:19:18.545 --> 00:19:22.955
folks wanting to tell you everything
they know as distinct from deciding

00:19:22.955 --> 00:19:26.975
on a couple of key themes or ideas,
and really going hard on those.

00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:30.929
Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus,
critical themes and ideas, and then being

00:19:30.929 --> 00:19:33.300
consistent and repetitive are critical.

00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:36.270
And I love the quote about
repetition doesn't spoil the prayer.

00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:38.820
I'm going to leverage that in what I do.

00:19:38.909 --> 00:19:41.699
Because not only is it important for the
messaging, but it's important for the

00:19:41.699 --> 00:19:45.060
messengers to understand because it can
feel like I'm saying the same thing over

00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:49.300
and over again, but in fact, not everybody
is hearing it over and over again.

00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:51.129
So that repetition is really important.

00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:54.430
Kate Mason: And the real skillset
is to look excited about it and

00:19:54.430 --> 00:19:57.250
like it's the first time you've
ever said it, every time you say it.

00:19:57.490 --> 00:19:58.960
Matt Abrahams: And there's a
way to do that authentically.

00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:02.230
I don't want people to hear that advice
was, it's not being disingenuous,

00:20:02.230 --> 00:20:05.230
it's reminding yourself what's
important and what's the value.

00:20:05.350 --> 00:20:09.040
You know, as a teacher, I teach a lot
of the same concepts repeatedly, but

00:20:09.040 --> 00:20:12.580
I am so passionate about what those
concepts do for people, and it'll be

00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:15.220
interesting to see what my students
think, that I bring that intensity.

00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:15.820
So you're right.

00:20:16.035 --> 00:20:18.135
It is about repetition,
but really owning that.

00:20:19.785 --> 00:20:22.155
Before we end, I like to
ask people three questions.

00:20:22.155 --> 00:20:24.675
One I make up just for you, and two,
I've been asking everybody for as

00:20:24.675 --> 00:20:25.935
long as this show's been on the air.

00:20:25.935 --> 00:20:26.535
Are you up for that?

00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:27.195
Kate Mason: I'd love to.

00:20:27.285 --> 00:20:29.835
Matt Abrahams: Well, you know I love
very practical, tactical tools and

00:20:29.835 --> 00:20:32.715
you've been traveling all around in
support of your new book, providing

00:20:32.715 --> 00:20:34.605
practical, tactical tools for people.

00:20:34.935 --> 00:20:38.355
Can you share one that you found
resonates really well with people?

00:20:38.565 --> 00:20:40.995
Kate Mason: I think one that's
really easy to implement now

00:20:40.995 --> 00:20:43.485
is many of us over prepare.

00:20:43.754 --> 00:20:45.825
Maybe that's got us to
where we are, right?

00:20:45.825 --> 00:20:47.445
Maybe that's how we started our career.

00:20:47.475 --> 00:20:51.645
But I see a real difference between
adequate preparation and over preparation.

00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:56.580
The dangers of that are so many because
we get mired to the thing we've done,

00:20:56.850 --> 00:21:00.780
and we are not as creative or agile in
an interaction as we otherwise could be.

00:21:00.780 --> 00:21:05.320
So my challenge could be, could you do
five percent less, just five percent

00:21:05.340 --> 00:21:10.140
less on a presentation or a meeting
prep for yourself and maybe ratchet down

00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.690
those expectations and see how you go.

00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:15.565
I'd be very surprised if you weren't
gonna keep ratcheting it down.

00:21:16.405 --> 00:21:19.825
There's a lot of muscle memory there
that we can rely on, and actually

00:21:19.825 --> 00:21:24.415
often we do much better work when we
are slightly even under-prepared, just

00:21:24.415 --> 00:21:26.845
slightly than five percent over-prepared.

00:21:27.024 --> 00:21:29.935
Matt Abrahams: There's a wonderful saying
in improvisation, good enough is great.

00:21:30.024 --> 00:21:35.715
When you give yourself permission to be
more present, not over rehearsed, there's

00:21:35.715 --> 00:21:37.935
an aliveness and a focus that comes.

00:21:37.935 --> 00:21:39.375
I really appreciate that idea.

00:21:39.375 --> 00:21:43.365
Preparation is key, but not
necessarily over preparation.

00:21:43.635 --> 00:21:47.025
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:21:47.325 --> 00:21:48.795
Kate Mason: I love Michelle Obama.

00:21:48.885 --> 00:21:52.965
I think she just, I don't know her
personally, but it feels to me at least,

00:21:52.965 --> 00:21:57.885
that she is who she is and she manages
to convey so many different forms

00:21:57.885 --> 00:22:02.879
of authority, warmth, intelligence,
community building and rapport.

00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:08.189
I think she's an exemplar of someone
who can very easily ratchet up and down

00:22:08.189 --> 00:22:12.810
to different audiences, but maintain
a very solid sense of who she is.

00:22:12.899 --> 00:22:14.129
I find that very admirable.

00:22:14.550 --> 00:22:18.810
Matt Abrahams: There is a connective
feeling that you get when she speaks.

00:22:18.810 --> 00:22:19.804
You feel like you know her.

00:22:20.415 --> 00:22:24.165
Regardless of if you support her politics
or not, you definitely feel that she's

00:22:24.165 --> 00:22:25.995
there in the moment speaking with you.

00:22:26.295 --> 00:22:27.075
Final question.

00:22:27.435 --> 00:22:31.965
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:36.855
Kate Mason: I think for me, they
are rapport building as number one.

00:22:37.125 --> 00:22:41.655
Great listening as number two,
and humility as number three.

00:22:41.955 --> 00:22:45.855
And humility, I mean, the ability to
see maybe where you might be wrong and

00:22:45.855 --> 00:22:47.925
change and course correct accordingly.

00:22:48.330 --> 00:22:51.870
I think those three things when
in place can be a really beautiful

00:22:51.870 --> 00:22:56.700
mixture that gives creativity and
agility in the moment, but also some

00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:58.860
solidity to yourself and who you are.

00:22:59.040 --> 00:23:00.990
Matt Abrahams: And I see how
they feed into each other,

00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:02.730
that listening builds rapport.

00:23:02.730 --> 00:23:04.980
Humility continues a conversation going.

00:23:05.375 --> 00:23:07.445
Do you have one quick
tip for building rapport?

00:23:07.445 --> 00:23:09.875
Is there something that you
like to do to help connect?

00:23:10.265 --> 00:23:12.965
Kate Mason: When I'm building rapport,
I usually look for, is there a

00:23:12.965 --> 00:23:15.365
personal anecdote we can bond over?

00:23:15.365 --> 00:23:19.055
Or maybe even make a joke with someone,
something that gets them out of any

00:23:19.055 --> 00:23:22.625
performative state they might feel that
they're in and deescalate together.

00:23:22.775 --> 00:23:25.985
So we can both be a little bit more
regulated for the conversation ahead.

00:23:26.105 --> 00:23:29.885
Matt Abrahams: So it's a way of connecting
and taking some of the pressure off.

00:23:30.225 --> 00:23:31.455
Kate, this has been fantastic.

00:23:31.455 --> 00:23:33.195
I knew we were gonna have
a great conversation.

00:23:33.195 --> 00:23:35.235
We always have a great
time when we get together.

00:23:35.235 --> 00:23:38.865
Thank you for sharing ways that we
can get out of that performative

00:23:38.865 --> 00:23:43.695
state and be more real and give
ourselves permission to be who we are.

00:23:43.845 --> 00:23:46.155
I wish you well with your
new book, Powerfully Likable,

00:23:46.185 --> 00:23:47.895
and thank you for joining us.

00:23:48.105 --> 00:23:49.335
Kate Mason: Thank you so
much for having me, Matt.

00:23:49.335 --> 00:23:49.935
It was a pleasure.

00:23:52.575 --> 00:23:54.435
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:23:54.435 --> 00:23:56.535
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:23:56.774 --> 00:24:00.225
To learn more about communication,
status and power, listen to

00:24:00.225 --> 00:24:02.554
episode 176 with Alison Fragale.

00:24:02.865 --> 00:24:07.790
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:24:08.030 --> 00:24:09.260
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:24:09.810 --> 00:24:11.850
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:24:12.060 --> 00:24:15.210
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