228. Negotiate Your Way to Success: Empathy, Mirroring, and Labeling

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: While most communication situations are not life and death, sometimes they can be. We can all learn to handle the pressure when under the gun. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. As part of our four part miniseries on spontaneous speaking, we introduced you to a number of coaches whose jobs require successful, in the moment communication. So many of our listeners found value in our coaches' advice that we wanted to provide you with an opportunity to hear our complete interviews. So today I am excited for you to learn from Chris Voss. Chris is a former FBI lead international kidnapping and hostage negotiator. He's the CEO of the Black Swan Group and co-author of Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It. Let's jump right in and learn from Chris. Chris, welcome. I look forward to our conversation. 

[00:01:01] Chris Voss: Thank you. Yeah, so do I. Let's, uh, let's go on an exploration here. 

[00:01:06] Matt Abrahams: Alright. So for over twenty years you were a lead FBI hostage negotiator. What trainings and experience led you into that role? 

[00:01:16] Chris Voss: When I specifically began to train for it was when I volunteered on a crisis slash suicide hotline in New York City. I was told the best preparation was to volunteer on a suicide hotline, and as it turned out, that was the case. And then after that, you go to the FBI's two week school at Quantico. If you're a hostage negotiator anywhere on earth, the training at Quantico is one of the trainings you want to go to. And I loved it. And I stayed volunteering on the crisis hotline for a couple more years after that. And I did a lot of teaching, but a lot of it is then self-directed and recognizing it's a perishable skill and not letting it perish. 

[00:01:58] Matt Abrahams: What were one or two of the key things you learned from the, the work you did with the suicide hotline and, and maybe even Quantico? What were a couple of the skills they taught you that you think were invaluable to the role you have? 

[00:02:10] Chris Voss: What I learned was emotional intelligence is an insane accelerator to outcomes. You know, we speculate that the application of empathy accelerates you to wherever you're gonna go fourteen times faster. And I kind of got an inkling of that on a suicide hotline when they first said there's a twenty minute time limit on all calls. Like, you gotta be kidding me. There are anecdotal stories all the time of people being on a phone overnight, staying up all night trying to talk people outta killin' themselves, how can you do this in twenty minutes?

[00:02:40] And they said, well, as a matter of fact, if you're doing it right, it won't take that long. And that ended up being the case. And you know, I learned emotional intelligence, they called it reflective listening at the time. This is early 1990s. It's derivative of a psychologist named Carl Rogers. But I remember using it on the hotline thinking like, uh, if this is this effective with people in crisis, why doesn't everybody in my life deserve it? Why don't the, my family, my friends, my colleagues, people I arrest deserve empathy is an FBI agent. And in point of fact, I started applying it on everything that I did.

[00:03:16] Matt Abrahams: You've negotiated in incredibly high pressure situations where life is on the line. How do you stay calm and collected?

[00:03:25] Chris Voss: You know, anything that looks easy, that somebody makes look easy, they put a lot of time into. I really started on the suicide hotline. They would put us on a line while we were still in training, about halfway through training. They taught us enough to put us on a line supervised, there's somebody right there, take the phone outta your hand if you start saying stupid stuff to the person on the other end. Which is entirely possible because advice is usually counterproductive. It's short circuits their thinking process. So the first time that I was on the line, I remember saying, hello, this is helpline. Just like that. And a supervisor said, your tone of voice is great. That was great. So I thought, okay, well I gotta repeat that. You break it down into small pieces, you practice it live, and then you practice it in small stakes interactions. I mean, I gotta practice these skills today, that, it's not bike riding. I gotta practice every day or my skills deteriorate.

[00:04:26] Matt Abrahams: So it's the notion of practice and finding opportunities that are low stakes to really work on that and, and to keep those skills fresh. And it sounds like, at least early on, you had a direct mentor sitting there giving you feedback and advice as you went, and that's, that's also important, I believe. Before you go into a negotiation or a high stake situation like that, do you do anything to prepare yourself? Do you do some deep breathing, some centering? What, what do you do to prepare when you walk into one of these situations?

[00:04:55] Chris Voss: I do a sort of daily prep because I never know when a high pressure situation's gonna come at me. So the cliches, the gratitude exercise first thing in the morning. The phraseology that, you know, this is happening for me, not to me. Calms you down in the moment. You gotta practice that. When I was on a, as a hostage negotiator, I had just relied on the process so much that I was good. You know, I don't know sure how this is gonna come out, but the, the best outcome is if I just follow the, the process that I know, you know, use the skills and, and, and let it go where it may.

[00:05:34] Matt Abrahams: So it sounds like there was a bit of a ritual to your practice. Uh, it sounds like you continue that practice, but it's really about, uh, relying on what you have done and know that you can get through it. When you're under pressure, how do you quickly gather information and adjust your approach? I mean, you, you constantly must be reading the circumstances and then making adjustments. Do you have things you use to help you make those decisions or are you using some kind of pattern recognition? 

[00:06:01] Chris Voss: Your gut does the pattern recognition. It's not a conscious process. So when you get to the point where you can lean back enough to let your gut kick in, then you're gonna be fine.

[00:06:14] Matt Abrahams: Uh, many of us in these high stakes situations, clearly different than the high stakes situations you've lived through, we, we get in our head and we overthink. Do you have ways that help you turn down that volume of overthinking?

[00:06:26] Chris Voss: I'm reading Creativity Inc., by Ed Catmull, the guy who founded Pixar. And he says, you know, the overthinkers make mistakes at the same rate as the people that are quick to pull the trigger. It just takes 'em longer to make the mistakes 'cause they're overthinking it. And I thought that makes all the sense in the world. You know, the entrepreneurial organizations who are really operating on gut instinct, they say, you know, make the mistake now, gather the data, fail fast, move forward. You see it over and over and over again. It never even occurred to me that the overthinkers would not be any more effective than the quick to pull the trigger. It would just take 'em longer. And that, and that insight in, in Ed's book just really sort of, uh, opened my eyes to the dangers, the perils of overthinking.

[00:07:17] Matt Abrahams: Let's talk a little bit more about that, when, when things don't go as you expected them to go in the moment, are there ways in which you quickly adjust and adapt? Or do you just stay the course and keep things going forward even if it didn't happen or occur the way you wanted it to? What do you do when things don't go the way you planned? 

[00:07:36] Chris Voss: The first thing is to realize there is no course. If you only imagine there's one course, then you're gonna stick to it when all the data's telling you you're wrong. So in kidnapping negotiations, I'd show up in an embassy. And they'd say, how's this gonna work out? And it's gonna work out one of five ways, and we gotta go along for the ride, see which one it is. You know, that would keep me from getting married to a course. So to recognize that it's your desire to wanna think of one path, you're already limiting yourself because never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. If you can maintain that flexibility in a moment, then you're gonna do really well. 

[00:08:18] Matt Abrahams: I think that is such important advice and insight that there is no one right way. There are many ways, and staying open and agile and curious is what allows you to adjust and adapt as things happen.

[00:08:30] Chris Voss: Amen.

[00:08:31] Matt Abrahams: What rules or guidelines do you follow in your messaging when you communicate in negotiations?

[00:08:37] Chris Voss: Yeah. in general terms. You know, he or she who talks most loses. If you're explaining, you're losing. You should probably be listening five times more when you're talking. 

[00:08:47] Matt Abrahams: Right. And it's really about the understanding that what you are saying or not saying has an impact in that moment on what's going on. I'd like to get into, if, if you don't mind, sharing some more detail about two specific skills that you mentioned earlier. You mentioned labeling and you mentioned mirroring. Would you mind taking a moment to just share what each of those skills are and, and the value they bring to you in the work that you do?

[00:09:14] Chris Voss: Uh, the value I bring.

[00:09:15] Matt Abrahams: Yeah. The value of, of labeling and of mirroring.

[00:09:19] Chris Voss: All right, so I just mirrored you.

[00:09:20] Matt Abrahams: And I fell right for it.

[00:09:23] Chris Voss: Well, because it feels natural. Mirroring is, mirroring is a delightful skill, which is repeating, generally, the last one to three-ish words of what somebody has said. It could be one word. It really shouldn't be more than five. And it's just repeating them word for word. And in any given communication, and you touched on it a little bit before, you know what's said, what's unsaid. And the other side, what they hear is, oh, okay, he got what I wanted to say, but he needs a fuller explanation. And so you're drawn to it and you give fuller explanations. It's actually much more effective than saying to somebody, what did you mean by that? It doesn't require a lot of mental energy. The return of investment of what you said versus how much you hear is insane, and that's why they like it. 'Cause I just gotta say three words and the other side will talk for ten minutes.

[00:10:13] Now, the label is just slapping a label on the dynamic or the emotion or a hidden dynamic. Again, I'm coaching a client earlier and they got a vendor that they're dealing with who's gonna make all kind of excuses for why they couldn't get stuff done. And I said, well, the label here is, it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. And it's gotta be delivered just like that. I hesitated, you know, I did an upward inflection. I just, what are you telling me. If you're a professional, and you agreed on a job, and then you came back afterwards with all kinds of excuses, somewhere along the line, what you're telling me is you didn't know what you were doing. And the important thing about a label is it's gotta be a dynamic the other side introduces. You cannot introduce it. The other side has to introduce it, then it's fair game.

[00:11:07] Matt Abrahams: What's interesting to me, I mean you did a great job describing it, so I don't feel like I have to re-explain it, but what's interesting to me is how important the way in which you say your mirror or label plays out in it. So it's not just the words, it's the way you say those words. So that combination of nonverbal presence and the verbal presence matter in this. And a lot of us fixate on just the words. And what I'm hearing you say is it's much more than that. 

[00:11:34] Chris Voss: Being in law enforcement, then I'm always gonna come up with law enforcement analogies, and so tone is like the rifling on a bullet. Now a bullet comes out of a barrel, and there are things inside of the barrel of a gun called lands and grooves that actually spin the bullet, so that when it comes out, it goes in a straight line. It's the same thing as when you throw a baseball, you spin the ball. A baseball pitch with no spin is called a knuckle ball, and that thing goes all over the place and nobody knows where the hell it's gonna land. And so for your words to hit the target, you know, the, the very label I used before I could say, it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. Now that's an insult. That tone of voice is an accusation. It's insulting. But if I say, it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. Same words, land a thousand percent different.

[00:12:22] Matt Abrahams: One of the things, Chris, I've really appreciated, is you've done a really nice job of using analogies, and analogies are really useful. While I don't know much about guns and bullets, it's very clear that spin matters. So before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions that I'm asking everybody who's part of this miniseries on spontaneous speaking. Are you up for doing that?

[00:12:42] Chris Voss: Let's go for it. See what happens.

[00:12:44] Matt Abrahams: Chris, I'd love to know who is the communicator you admire and why?

[00:12:49] Chris Voss: Oprah Winfrey.

[00:12:50] Matt Abrahams: Tell me why.

[00:12:51] Chris Voss: So she has dealt with some of the most volatile people on planet Earth. I've had some very specific conversations relayed to me in detail where she has taken celebrities to the woodshed over their behavior. I mean, she has the ability to maintain relationships even with differences of opinion. I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan. 

[00:13:09] Matt Abrahams: Question number two, while those listening in likely aren't going to have to speak in situations like you do, uh, what advice would you give for them to speak better in the moment in general?

[00:13:21] Chris Voss: Just take your time. There, there's so much of an advantage while you're speaking to slow down a little, you know, let the moment play out. Some people take their time in speaking because they're determined to maintain control of the conversation. They'll only pause mid-sentence so they don't get interrupted. So slowing the conversation down, so you can absorb more information, so you can be more in the moment, is not the same as slowing down to stay in control. If you slow down to be more connected with somebody in the moment, to hear them, to make 'em feel heard, you give yourself time to analyze in the moment, you're gonna be a much better communicator.

[00:13:59] Matt Abrahams: This notion of pausing and slowing things down, I think is really, really important. I want to add an exclamation point to that. In these spontaneous speaking situations, we feel such pressure to respond immediately, and you remind us that slowing down actually affords us lots of opportunity. Final question for you. I wanna switch roles on you. I'm the professor, but I'm gonna have you be the professor. I'd like you to give me some homework. What is one communication thing that you would encourage me to do in my life, that simulates the things that you do, so I can get better, in your case, with negotiations and handling high pressure situations, is there one thing you'd give me homework to practice?

[00:14:39] Chris Voss: Spend a day with, whatever somebody says to you, say, seems like you have a reason for saying that. hmmm Somebody says, hey man, what a sunny day. Seems like you got a reason for saying that. Somebody says to you, you know, if you don't vote for so-and-so, you're betraying the American people. Seems like you got a reason for saying that. Just give yourself a day to experiment with that phrase no matter what people say. You can come back with your opinion, your observation. It doesn't preclude you for any of the natural things you want to say. I promise you, you spend a day doing that, you are gonna have four or five conversations, just the vast majority of them, are gonna open up in ways you, you didn't imagine possible.

[00:15:24] Matt Abrahams: I really like that. It opens up the door for more information to come out, so there's more data, as you've talked about. My mother-in-law, who I believe had a black belt in small talk, she used to say, tell me more. 

[00:15:37] Chris Voss: Yeah, it's encouraging.

[00:15:38] Matt Abrahams: Exactly. Chris, this has been fantastic. You've given us lots of insight into how empathy can be an accelerant and really encouraging us to slow down, be present, and respond, not in one course or one way, but be open to responding in a way that's needed in the moment. Thank you so much. 

[00:15:58] Chris Voss: The pleasure was mine. Thanks for having me on.

[00:16:04] Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more from our spontaneous speaking coaches, listen to our four part miniseries, episodes, 197, 198, 199, and 203. You can also go to fastersmarter.io/spontaneous. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Michael Riley, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With thanks to Podium Podcast company. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language Learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more, at fastersmarter.io/premium.