225. Speaking Fluent Internet: How Algorithms Are Changing the Way We Speak

WEBVTT

00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.630
Matt Abrahams: Words and language
are conduits for culture.

00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:09.840
My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:11.790
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

00:00:11.850 --> 00:00:14.955
Welcome to Think Fast,
talk Smart, the podcast.

00:00:16.560 --> 00:00:19.080
Today I'm delighted to
speak with Adam Aleksic.

00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:22.710
Adam is a linguist and content
creator posting educational videos

00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:27.240
under the name the Etymology Nerd,
and he has over 2 million followers.

00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:31.799
He's lectured on language and social media
at Stanford and other top universities.

00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:35.160
His latest book is called
Algospeak: How Social Media is

00:00:35.160 --> 00:00:37.620
Transforming the Future of Language.

00:00:38.010 --> 00:00:38.760
Well, welcome Adam.

00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:40.710
I look forward to our conversation.

00:00:40.740 --> 00:00:44.280
My younger son is a follower of
yours and he and I are both really

00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:45.930
excited to hear this conversation.

00:00:45.930 --> 00:00:46.620
Thanks for being here.

00:00:46.710 --> 00:00:46.890
Adam Aleksic: Hi.

00:00:46.890 --> 00:00:47.700
Excited to be here.

00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:48.360
Matt Abrahams: Thanks.

00:00:48.360 --> 00:00:49.050
Shall we get started?

00:00:49.140 --> 00:00:49.620
Adam Aleksic: Go ahead.

00:00:50.160 --> 00:00:54.269
Matt Abrahams: As the son of both a
lawyer and an elementary school teacher,

00:00:54.330 --> 00:00:57.570
language and words have always been really
important and interesting in my life.

00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:01.080
I'm curious, where did your
interest and passion come from and

00:01:01.080 --> 00:01:03.990
why should any of us care about
the words we use in our grammar?

00:01:04.590 --> 00:01:06.750
Adam Aleksic: If I'm being honest,
I got into it for the fun facts.

00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:09.990
I read this book in 10th grade, The
Etymologicon, great book, connecting

00:01:09.990 --> 00:01:12.630
how different words are all related
to each other in different ways.

00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:13.440
Fascinating.

00:01:13.770 --> 00:01:16.680
And then the more I looked into it, the
more I started doing my own research and

00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:18.330
eventually studied linguistics in college.

00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:22.465
I began to realize that language is
the way humans identify the world

00:01:22.465 --> 00:01:23.905
and relate that to each other.

00:01:24.055 --> 00:01:26.125
It's so much more than just fun facts.

00:01:26.125 --> 00:01:28.015
But those are still good, you
know, in and of themselves.

00:01:28.345 --> 00:01:31.255
It's how we communicate,
who we are as people.

00:01:31.255 --> 00:01:33.745
And you can see this as a,
language as a proxy for culture.

00:01:34.075 --> 00:01:34.705
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

00:01:34.705 --> 00:01:37.705
And if you have a word to identify
it, then it exists and you

00:01:37.705 --> 00:01:39.025
can share that meaning, right?

00:01:39.325 --> 00:01:39.745
Adam Aleksic: Exactly.

00:01:39.745 --> 00:01:42.415
But once it's identified, it also
changes reality a little bit.

00:01:42.535 --> 00:01:43.975
The fact that a label is out there.

00:01:44.385 --> 00:01:46.725
You identify either with that
label or against that label.

00:01:46.755 --> 00:01:49.725
If that label wasn't there, now it's
not something affecting your identity.

00:01:49.905 --> 00:01:52.455
This is something that's very
interesting to me 'cause the book

00:01:52.455 --> 00:01:55.485
that I wrote gets into algorithms
and how algorithms create new words.

00:01:55.725 --> 00:01:58.335
And you have new labels out there
because algorithms push these,

00:01:58.335 --> 00:01:59.515
like cottagecore or something.

00:01:59.515 --> 00:02:02.365
Now that cottagecore is out there, I'm
either cottagecore, I'm not cottagecore,

00:02:02.384 --> 00:02:04.005
and that affects my identity subtly.

00:02:04.065 --> 00:02:05.535
Matt Abrahams: I have no
idea what cottagecore is.

00:02:05.535 --> 00:02:06.255
Will you share with me?

00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:10.150
Adam Aleksic: It's a fashion aesthetic of
like, it's sort of a bucolic lifestyle of

00:02:10.150 --> 00:02:13.180
prairies and whatever, and you're dressing
toward that aesthetic, but it's packaged

00:02:13.180 --> 00:02:14.710
as an entire lifestyle on social media.

00:02:14.830 --> 00:02:15.640
Matt Abrahams: Interesting.

00:02:15.640 --> 00:02:20.470
So when Spotify identifies a particular
type of music or labels a type of

00:02:20.470 --> 00:02:23.200
music, all of a sudden it now exists
and you're either it or not it.

00:02:23.230 --> 00:02:23.830
Adam Aleksic: Exactly.

00:02:23.830 --> 00:02:27.295
For this book, I actually interviewed
Spotify's Chief Data Alchemist, Glenn

00:02:27.295 --> 00:02:30.995
McDonald and they have over eight
thousand micro genres on Spotify.

00:02:31.055 --> 00:02:33.365
You know, in the past we'd have
something like R and B, hip hop, pop.

00:02:33.545 --> 00:02:35.935
Now it's also escape room, preverb.

00:02:36.125 --> 00:02:39.095
These are like things they made up
because they're just putting new

00:02:39.095 --> 00:02:42.695
labels on things, and now artists
try to conform their musical identity

00:02:42.815 --> 00:02:44.315
for these labels that are out there.

00:02:44.495 --> 00:02:47.795
Hyper pop is the term that wasn't
really on the scene until Spotify

00:02:47.795 --> 00:02:50.055
created a hyper pop genre in 2018.

00:02:50.355 --> 00:02:53.704
And now people are trying to make
hyper pop, they're arguing over

00:02:53.704 --> 00:02:55.174
what is and what isn't hyper pop.

00:02:55.355 --> 00:02:57.065
But they wouldn't have
been doing that otherwise.

00:02:57.065 --> 00:03:01.505
They would've maybe just been making music
in this space and more fluid perhaps,

00:03:01.715 --> 00:03:03.185
but maybe the label constraints identity.

00:03:03.185 --> 00:03:06.275
At the same time, maybe the label
gives people a way to pinpoint

00:03:06.275 --> 00:03:07.835
exactly what this thing is.

00:03:07.925 --> 00:03:09.785
So what you were saying,
words have tremendous power.

00:03:09.995 --> 00:03:11.135
Matt Abrahams: That's fascinating.

00:03:11.135 --> 00:03:15.155
The, the words we use not only
create and identify what exists in

00:03:15.155 --> 00:03:19.560
the world, but how we see ourselves
as being part of or not part of.

00:03:19.980 --> 00:03:22.809
So let me ask you talk
a lot about algospeak.

00:03:22.959 --> 00:03:26.670
What is algospeak and how is
it impacting our communication?

00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:30.390
Adam Aleksic: Traditionally, algospeak
has been the label for speech used to

00:03:30.390 --> 00:03:32.970
circumvent algorithmic censorship online.

00:03:33.329 --> 00:03:35.529
The classic example is the word un-alive.

00:03:35.545 --> 00:03:37.825
You can't say kill on TikTok
or you can say it, but your

00:03:37.825 --> 00:03:38.875
video might be suppressed.

00:03:39.084 --> 00:03:42.954
So many creators choose instead to use
words like un-alive, and now we have kids

00:03:42.954 --> 00:03:46.345
in middle schools writing essays about
Hamlet contemplating un-aliving himself

00:03:46.375 --> 00:03:47.725
simply because they see it on TikTok.

00:03:47.725 --> 00:03:49.885
And so now this is also
changing our reality as well.

00:03:49.975 --> 00:03:52.734
That's traditionally been what's
referred to as algospeak, and that's

00:03:52.734 --> 00:03:55.195
what got me interested in this because
I'm a creator and I'm a linguist, and I

00:03:55.195 --> 00:03:58.075
started studying my own language because
you can't not if you're those things.

00:03:58.345 --> 00:04:03.024
And I started realizing, wow, my
speech is being hampered and by the

00:04:03.024 --> 00:04:04.375
algorithm I have to reroute around it.

00:04:05.055 --> 00:04:08.125
At the same time, it's so much more
than censorship, like un-alive.

00:04:08.535 --> 00:04:13.394
It's memes, it's trends, it's which
groups are created, it's where words

00:04:13.394 --> 00:04:15.734
come from in the first place, and
how quickly those words spread.

00:04:15.975 --> 00:04:16.305
Matt Abrahams: Wow.

00:04:16.305 --> 00:04:20.925
So the algorithms are replacing
the traditional way that new words

00:04:20.925 --> 00:04:24.375
came into being, subcultures,
using concepts, and ideas.

00:04:24.615 --> 00:04:29.975
Given that there's this new language,
if you will, or at least new words in a

00:04:29.975 --> 00:04:32.405
language, how do we best become fluent?

00:04:32.435 --> 00:04:35.435
I'm thinking of the modern day
workplace where you have four

00:04:35.435 --> 00:04:40.385
generations of folks, and some folks
are religiously on TikTok and Instagram

00:04:40.385 --> 00:04:42.215
and part of that algorithm culture.

00:04:42.425 --> 00:04:45.675
And then you've got folks who are older
who don't even know what those things are.

00:04:45.854 --> 00:04:49.005
How can we expect to communicate
when we're not even speaking

00:04:49.005 --> 00:04:50.565
the same language in some cases?

00:04:50.625 --> 00:04:50.865
Adam Aleksic: Right.

00:04:50.865 --> 00:04:54.315
Each social setting comes with a
unique set of linguistic expectations.

00:04:54.375 --> 00:04:57.255
In the workplace, like you described,
there's still like a general corporate

00:04:57.255 --> 00:05:00.855
kind of language or an attitude about what
words are acceptable and not acceptable.

00:05:01.065 --> 00:05:02.474
Same with un-alive, right?

00:05:02.474 --> 00:05:05.410
It seems unacceptable for a
kid to write that in an essay.

00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:08.770
But it's acceptable to say on TikTok
because that actually is the expectation,

00:05:08.770 --> 00:05:12.640
that's the sociolect, the social
kind of dialect of the internet,

00:05:12.640 --> 00:05:15.760
that people have this certain way
of speaking that finds a community.

00:05:15.970 --> 00:05:21.010
Matt Abrahams: So if we are to be a leader
in an organization, a manager of a group,

00:05:21.010 --> 00:05:27.070
and I want everybody to feel included in
that group, do I have to have a glossary

00:05:27.070 --> 00:05:29.220
of terms that we agree to, to use?

00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:31.760
If I've got a colleague that
refers to something I don't

00:05:31.760 --> 00:05:33.830
understand, am I being left out?

00:05:33.830 --> 00:05:35.390
Am I being ostracized?

00:05:35.599 --> 00:05:38.300
What recommendations do you have
or have you seen so that we can

00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:39.560
all communicate the same way?

00:05:39.770 --> 00:05:41.930
Adam Aleksic: Well, I think a lot
of these expectations are implicit,

00:05:41.930 --> 00:05:44.960
and it's strange to make a list of
words that are acceptable and not.

00:05:45.030 --> 00:05:47.789
There are key words that are being
flagged by the algorithm, or some words

00:05:47.789 --> 00:05:50.849
the algorithm knows are trending, and
then the algorithm pushes them and

00:05:50.849 --> 00:05:54.299
then creators use these words, and then
the word gets perpetuated further into

00:05:54.299 --> 00:05:55.890
virality, and now it's more of a word.

00:05:56.099 --> 00:05:57.680
That to me is also algospeak.

00:05:57.900 --> 00:06:00.330
I'm a strong believer that
the medium is the message.

00:06:00.359 --> 00:06:03.239
Every single medium uniquely
affects how we communicate and we

00:06:03.270 --> 00:06:05.169
adapt our speech to these medium.

00:06:05.375 --> 00:06:09.275
The algorithm is one such medium, and we
have a unique way of speaking for these

00:06:09.335 --> 00:06:13.385
because algorithms are an infrastructure
underlying how videos get distributed.

00:06:13.385 --> 00:06:16.295
You have to appeal to this algorithm,
not only in which words you're

00:06:16.445 --> 00:06:19.265
using to avoid censorship, but
also in which words go more viral.

00:06:19.325 --> 00:06:22.625
But also, generally, if this is a
social expectation that we should

00:06:22.625 --> 00:06:24.665
be speaking this way, you have
to accommodate for that as well.

00:06:25.110 --> 00:06:27.480
In a office setting,
the medium is different.

00:06:27.750 --> 00:06:30.600
You should not be using the
word un-alive in the office, and

00:06:30.870 --> 00:06:32.100
that's just not the expectation.

00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:35.460
Matt Abrahams: So each context brings
its own expectations, which brings along

00:06:35.460 --> 00:06:37.140
with it the certain rules that you have.

00:06:37.380 --> 00:06:38.490
I find it really interesting.

00:06:38.580 --> 00:06:42.720
One of the most ubiquitous bits of
advice that comes from this podcast

00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.570
is you need to know your audience
and you need to adjust and adapt.

00:06:45.630 --> 00:06:48.480
And I'm hearing that you're adding
a new audience that some of us

00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:51.805
need to consider, which is the
algorithm and the tools that we use.

00:06:51.895 --> 00:06:55.525
And that's really interesting because
if I want to be understood, I need

00:06:55.525 --> 00:06:59.094
to at least speak the same language
or understand and appreciate the

00:06:59.094 --> 00:07:00.655
language of the tool that I'm using.

00:07:00.895 --> 00:07:02.275
Adam Aleksic: The context
is really important.

00:07:02.305 --> 00:07:05.125
For example, right now, I know I'm
talking to you and I'm accommodating

00:07:05.125 --> 00:07:06.414
my communication to talk to you.

00:07:06.625 --> 00:07:09.865
However, we're also being observed
by an audience of many other people,

00:07:09.865 --> 00:07:13.974
and I don't know who these people
are, so I'm using a psycholinguistic

00:07:14.125 --> 00:07:18.235
phenomenon known as audience design,
where I have an idea of a perceived

00:07:18.235 --> 00:07:21.869
imaginary audience and I am accommodating
my communication for that as well.

00:07:21.869 --> 00:07:25.739
This is something we've seen with
radio hosts and broadcast presenters.

00:07:26.070 --> 00:07:28.440
You'll notice that they talk
in specific accents, right?

00:07:28.859 --> 00:07:31.739
Uh, I was on NPR the other day,
they were talking about the NPR

00:07:31.739 --> 00:07:33.239
accent and how they talk like that.

00:07:33.239 --> 00:07:35.789
And we all know, this just in,
breaking news, they have a certain

00:07:35.789 --> 00:07:37.140
way of speaking on TV as well.

00:07:37.349 --> 00:07:39.809
Influencers as well have a
sort of an influencer accent.

00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:42.419
They're accommodating for
their perceived audience.

00:07:42.419 --> 00:07:46.109
And again, this comes with the specific
social setting and the norms and the

00:07:46.109 --> 00:07:48.299
underlying values of that medium.

00:07:48.539 --> 00:07:52.575
However, we're also communicating,
not only for the actual person

00:07:52.575 --> 00:07:55.815
in front of us, not only for the
people invisibly perceiving us,

00:07:55.815 --> 00:07:57.405
but also for the algorithm itself.

00:07:57.555 --> 00:08:01.335
There's also this invisible infrastructure
that analyzes every single word that's

00:08:01.335 --> 00:08:04.695
uploaded to these platforms, and you
need to be performing for that as well.

00:08:05.055 --> 00:08:07.995
Matt Abrahams: I want to come back to
influencers and creators in a moment,

00:08:07.995 --> 00:08:09.675
but two questions pop into mind.

00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.635
AI and the algorithms are only as
good as the data that they have

00:08:13.695 --> 00:08:15.255
come to digest and understand.

00:08:15.575 --> 00:08:22.685
As language is changing, is it possible
that the algorithms don't yet know

00:08:22.835 --> 00:08:26.435
what some of these words and terms mean
and they might actually make mistakes?

00:08:26.465 --> 00:08:28.534
Adam Aleksic: Not only possible,
but that's exactly the reality.

00:08:28.685 --> 00:08:33.934
The fact is that AI, as sophisticated
as it is, has a training set and

00:08:33.995 --> 00:08:36.699
has reinforcement learning that
is a biased version of reality.

00:08:37.304 --> 00:08:40.725
It contains an idea or representation
of language that is a map, but the

00:08:40.725 --> 00:08:42.405
map can never be the territory itself.

00:08:42.674 --> 00:08:45.645
So the way human language is actually
used in all of its nuances in all

00:08:45.645 --> 00:08:48.645
of its little forms and the way
that it's currently changing, AI

00:08:48.645 --> 00:08:50.175
can never fully catch up to that.

00:08:50.175 --> 00:08:52.844
And that's why if you ask ChatGPT
to use slang, I don't think

00:08:52.844 --> 00:08:54.600
it'll ever quite be hip to that.

00:08:54.810 --> 00:08:58.050
Human language is always one step
ahead, which is why we come up with

00:08:58.050 --> 00:09:01.140
new phrases like un-alive and now
that's being censored as well because

00:09:01.140 --> 00:09:02.160
the algorithm caught onto that.

00:09:02.370 --> 00:09:05.490
But now creators use phrases like,
still unalive, but like spelled with

00:09:05.490 --> 00:09:08.220
an at sign instead of an A, or an
exclamation point instead of an I,

00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:09.630
one step ahead of the algorithm.

00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.480
If there's one thing I can count on
humans, it's that we are ingenious

00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:14.730
and tenacious with coming up
new ways to express ourselves.

00:09:14.995 --> 00:09:17.875
Matt Abrahams: I wanna dig into
your expertise as an influencer

00:09:17.875 --> 00:09:21.675
yourself, as the Etymology Nerd, but
as somebody who studied algospeak.

00:09:22.015 --> 00:09:25.645
If it is all about getting attention,
sustaining attention, leading to

00:09:25.645 --> 00:09:29.755
virality, so your ideas get heard by
more and more people, what types of

00:09:29.755 --> 00:09:34.345
advice would you give to people who
are trying to be really fluent and

00:09:34.345 --> 00:09:37.195
maximize what algospeak gives for them?

00:09:37.195 --> 00:09:40.075
Are there some specific tips and
tricks that you would recommend?

00:09:40.315 --> 00:09:42.355
Adam Aleksic: Start with
what these platforms want.

00:09:42.410 --> 00:09:44.630
The platforms give us the infrastructure.

00:09:44.839 --> 00:09:49.850
And unfortunately, they are trying to
grab our attention as much as possible to

00:09:49.939 --> 00:09:53.600
commodify us as people so they can sell
our data and so they can sell us ads.

00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:54.350
That's what they're doing.

00:09:54.589 --> 00:09:56.000
They make the structures in place.

00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.250
They have retention as like one
of them, that's like how long

00:09:58.250 --> 00:09:59.360
people stay watching a video.

00:09:59.550 --> 00:10:02.400
They use engagement metrics and whether
they recommend videos, that's like likes,

00:10:02.400 --> 00:10:03.990
comments, shares, all that normal stuff.

00:10:04.199 --> 00:10:08.459
So as influencers, you are then
incentivized to maximize for these things.

00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:12.630
It's all downstream of how the medium
is baking in certain expectations,

00:10:12.630 --> 00:10:15.209
certain priorities, and so you
need to be very aware of that.

00:10:15.209 --> 00:10:18.660
And it's also, again, be aware of your
invisible watching audience as well.

00:10:19.030 --> 00:10:21.430
I speak differently than the
lifestyle influencer because

00:10:21.430 --> 00:10:22.420
I have a different audience.

00:10:22.420 --> 00:10:25.780
The lifestyle influencer is probably
speaking to young women who expect this

00:10:25.780 --> 00:10:27.490
sort of valley girl derived accent.

00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:31.000
I speak very quickly, I mean, I do
in real life, but I'll online, I'll

00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.670
stress more words to keep you watching
my video to make sure you don't scroll

00:10:33.670 --> 00:10:36.760
away, and I'll uptalk as well, but
it'll be like a different thing than

00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:39.340
the lifestyle influencer, because
I'm also accommodating for both my

00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:40.810
imaginary audience and the algorithm.

00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:44.160
Matt Abrahams: Really interesting,
and you're making me think about what

00:10:44.160 --> 00:10:46.050
I do linguistically when I speak.

00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.410
I guess I am purposely doing
things for that imagined audience.

00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:52.230
It might not be good for the
algorithm, which might not be good

00:10:52.230 --> 00:10:53.850
for me to get my word out there.

00:10:54.090 --> 00:10:57.270
Are there certain things people
can do that enhance virality

00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:59.460
beyond just the spoken word?

00:10:59.460 --> 00:11:03.780
So for example, what we name our posts,
which not everybody's an influencer or

00:11:03.780 --> 00:11:06.390
creator, but I put titles on emails.

00:11:06.390 --> 00:11:08.250
I label what my meeting is.

00:11:08.250 --> 00:11:10.710
Are there words, I mean,
words, communication as well?

00:11:11.064 --> 00:11:12.865
Adam Aleksic: Written words grab our
attention more than other things.

00:11:12.865 --> 00:11:14.725
I wanna bring in visual semiotics as well.

00:11:15.025 --> 00:11:16.015
Matt Abrahams: Stay, take a step back.

00:11:16.165 --> 00:11:17.574
Define semiotics for us.

00:11:17.635 --> 00:11:21.055
Adam Aleksic: Oh, it's symbols,
things we look at that have meaning.

00:11:21.355 --> 00:11:24.055
So the fact that we have microphones
right now in front of us, and if this

00:11:24.055 --> 00:11:26.665
is uploaded to social media, there's
studies that have been done that show

00:11:26.665 --> 00:11:30.115
that videos where people have microphones
in front of them go more viral than

00:11:30.115 --> 00:11:32.035
otherwise because they connote authority.

00:11:32.185 --> 00:11:35.335
This is a semiotic symbol that
holds authority within it.

00:11:35.605 --> 00:11:37.735
And so there's actually an
influx right now of real creators

00:11:37.735 --> 00:11:40.925
using fake microphones because
that simply goes more viral.

00:11:40.925 --> 00:11:43.025
And it literally is a visual
indicator that this person has

00:11:43.025 --> 00:11:43.985
something important to say.

00:11:44.165 --> 00:11:48.695
And so we are subconsciously primed
to perceive that person as more

00:11:48.695 --> 00:11:51.795
important and as having something
worthy when they're talking.

00:11:51.935 --> 00:11:52.670
And so we watch further.

00:11:53.834 --> 00:11:55.064
Matt Abrahams: I really
find that fascinating.

00:11:55.064 --> 00:11:57.885
Not everybody, again, is going to be
a creator or influencer, but all of

00:11:57.885 --> 00:12:01.305
us do virtual presentations where we
might put a background behind us, and

00:12:01.305 --> 00:12:04.545
you have to think about what's in that
background because that sends a semiotic

00:12:04.545 --> 00:12:05.685
message, as you're talking about.

00:12:05.685 --> 00:12:06.885
It's implying things.

00:12:06.885 --> 00:12:09.105
Adam Aleksic: I think culturally
we're still grappling with the move

00:12:09.105 --> 00:12:11.715
to Zoom and the fact that you can
just see inside people's bedrooms now.

00:12:11.715 --> 00:12:12.555
That's crazy.

00:12:12.555 --> 00:12:15.740
So now your bedroom, this very
private sanctum, is now perceived as

00:12:15.765 --> 00:12:17.295
a professional environment as well.

00:12:17.655 --> 00:12:22.125
In the same way that we see visual stuff
very physically affect how we perceive

00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.880
a message, the same is happening with
communication, both written and verbal.

00:12:27.270 --> 00:12:29.715
Matt Abrahams: I'd like to talk
a little bit about the word like.

00:12:30.435 --> 00:12:37.155
Because it is used in a variety of ways
and I'm curious to get your perception

00:12:37.155 --> 00:12:41.235
of its evolution, and people use like
in some ways as a filler, in some ways

00:12:41.235 --> 00:12:43.635
as to, to replace the word says or said.

00:12:43.875 --> 00:12:44.985
Help me understand like.

00:12:45.165 --> 00:12:46.585
Adam Aleksic: Yeah, this
isn't even algospeak.

00:12:46.605 --> 00:12:51.165
It goes back to 1980s Valley girl
speech and early internet speak,

00:12:51.165 --> 00:12:53.080
but also like you, haha ha ha.

00:12:53.925 --> 00:12:55.425
I just used it as a
filler word right there.

00:12:55.605 --> 00:12:59.055
When you said you can use it as a
synonym for said that's not quite true.

00:12:59.055 --> 00:13:00.765
It has its own kind of feeling.

00:13:00.855 --> 00:13:05.055
Said is more connoting
evidentiality, that you literally

00:13:05.055 --> 00:13:06.584
are repeating something verbatim.

00:13:06.795 --> 00:13:11.145
Like is embodying an affect of
somebody who communicated something

00:13:11.145 --> 00:13:13.755
but not necessarily saying one hundred
percent this is what they said.

00:13:14.055 --> 00:13:17.675
So if I said, then she was like,
that party was low-key great.

00:13:17.885 --> 00:13:20.435
I'm not necessarily stating
that she literally said that.

00:13:20.675 --> 00:13:24.635
But all these uses kind of evolved
out of how young women talked in

00:13:24.725 --> 00:13:26.825
California in the eighties and nineties.

00:13:27.185 --> 00:13:30.665
And language often follows the
conduits of what is perceived as

00:13:30.785 --> 00:13:33.785
popular, what is perceived as cool,
what is perceived as funny, even.

00:13:33.965 --> 00:13:38.075
And the Valley girls were popular and
they spread language because of that.

00:13:38.790 --> 00:13:41.820
Matt Abrahams: I grew up in California
in the eighties, and I remember

00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.390
Valley Girls speak very much, and it's
interesting to see what has lasted

00:13:45.390 --> 00:13:47.040
from that all these years later.

00:13:47.550 --> 00:13:52.650
You know, for the past little while I've
been studying how we can use ambiguity

00:13:52.800 --> 00:13:54.900
in our communication strategically.

00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.220
Hedging language, if you will.

00:13:56.850 --> 00:13:59.880
Think of things like politeness,
flirtation, negotiation.

00:14:00.210 --> 00:14:04.080
All of these are situations where
indirect speech, indirect language

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.030
can actually be very helpful to you.

00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:07.590
We don't wanna get in trouble.

00:14:07.590 --> 00:14:10.950
We don't wanna risk our reputation
or make a mistake, so we use

00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:12.780
this ambiguous hedging language.

00:14:12.990 --> 00:14:16.080
What are your thoughts on
ambiguity and how does that play

00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.030
out in this world of algorithms?

00:14:18.210 --> 00:14:21.000
Adam Aleksic: My first ever linguistics
research project that I did as a

00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.215
senior in high school was, I was an
intern at a court and I was analyzing

00:14:25.235 --> 00:14:26.795
how lawyers talk to the judges.

00:14:27.105 --> 00:14:29.925
And they'll often say things like,
your Honor, I would submit this brief,

00:14:29.985 --> 00:14:31.125
as they're submitting the brief.

00:14:31.125 --> 00:14:33.225
You don't need to say would, right,
theoretically, because you're

00:14:33.225 --> 00:14:34.215
literally submitting the brief.

00:14:34.215 --> 00:14:37.574
You could say, your Honor, I'm submitting
this brief, but they say would as a hedge.

00:14:37.605 --> 00:14:41.055
They say it because it shows deference,
it shows politeness to the judge.

00:14:41.115 --> 00:14:43.635
And this is how you'll see a lot of
people use this sort of, that would is

00:14:43.635 --> 00:14:45.375
an example of a modal, auxiliary verb.

00:14:45.375 --> 00:14:48.135
And you can say, I could, I
should do this, I shan't do that.

00:14:48.165 --> 00:14:53.400
All of that is an example of modifying
your speech to make it seem more polite.

00:14:53.420 --> 00:14:56.030
And like is actually, one use
of the word like is to hedge.

00:14:56.210 --> 00:14:58.640
It's showing that you're not
asserting yourself too much.

00:14:59.060 --> 00:15:02.570
On social media, I think it's
probably bad to hedge that much

00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:04.790
because we want to convey authority.

00:15:04.790 --> 00:15:07.280
That's why the fake microphones
actually work, and real microphones,

00:15:07.280 --> 00:15:08.390
these are real, I'm assuming.

00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:12.200
But hedging does work depending
on different contexts.

00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:16.730
If you're trying to talk to a judge,
maybe it is good to be less abrasive.

00:15:17.325 --> 00:15:17.865
Matt Abrahams: I see.

00:15:18.075 --> 00:15:22.875
The hedges that, that bother me the
most are, I think and kind of because

00:15:22.875 --> 00:15:26.275
they diminish your status and power,
but at some points, in some ways

00:15:26.515 --> 00:15:28.385
they can serve a useful function.

00:15:28.385 --> 00:15:32.355
If I'm the big boss and you're my
employee and I genuinely want your

00:15:32.355 --> 00:15:36.465
input, if I were to say, I kind of think
we should do this, what do you think?

00:15:36.465 --> 00:15:40.155
That lowers my status and the
certitude of my assertion, so

00:15:40.155 --> 00:15:43.185
that you're more likely to say
something, versus, we should do this.

00:15:43.530 --> 00:15:44.220
What do you think?

00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:47.940
That's a very different sounding phrase,
so I find that really interesting.

00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:49.770
Do you see that play out in your world?

00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:50.010
Adam Aleksic: Yeah.

00:15:50.010 --> 00:15:52.770
When we're talking about performativity,
one thing you're performing for is

00:15:52.770 --> 00:15:55.890
there's always an imbued power dynamic
in any conversation you're having.

00:15:55.950 --> 00:15:58.620
So if we were like seated on stage in
front of an audience, the audience is

00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.060
definitely less powerful or something.

00:16:00.060 --> 00:16:01.890
Or if you're talking to your
boss, that's a perfect example.

00:16:01.890 --> 00:16:04.710
You have less power than your boss
and you need to show deference.

00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:07.415
And there's languages like Japanese
that literally encode this.

00:16:07.415 --> 00:16:10.865
They have many layers of like different
particles you attach to show your

00:16:10.865 --> 00:16:12.455
relationship to this other person.

00:16:12.635 --> 00:16:14.915
In English, we do the same
thing, but we do that through

00:16:14.915 --> 00:16:16.385
these sort of hedging particles.

00:16:16.745 --> 00:16:17.255
Matt Abrahams: Interesting.

00:16:17.255 --> 00:16:20.135
I love learning from you and I,
I love the ideas of language.

00:16:20.495 --> 00:16:23.675
I'd like you to reflect, across all of
your work, the book you've written, all

00:16:23.675 --> 00:16:27.185
of the social posts you do, your own
research that you've done, what are two

00:16:27.185 --> 00:16:32.775
or three key actionable takeaways that our
listeners can have from that body of work

00:16:32.995 --> 00:16:37.420
that will help us in our communication
and help us in the language that we use?

00:16:37.660 --> 00:16:40.990
Adam Aleksic: Takeaway number one, each
medium is going to uniquely affect how we

00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:44.230
communicate, and you need to be exactly
aware of what that medium is doing

00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:45.530
if you wanna communicate effectively.

00:16:45.820 --> 00:16:48.585
Algorithms are a new
inflection point for language.

00:16:48.705 --> 00:16:52.335
I think as a medium, they
value attention more than any

00:16:52.335 --> 00:16:53.625
previous medium we may have had.

00:16:53.925 --> 00:16:57.015
It's causing language to occur
faster, and you need to be tapped into

00:16:57.015 --> 00:16:58.995
these trends because that's another
thing these algorithms are pushing.

00:16:59.025 --> 00:17:00.255
So be aware of the medium.

00:17:00.795 --> 00:17:03.570
The second one is that algorithms
are changing the way we speak.

00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.619
It's a reality that, even if you're
not online, you need to be aware of

00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:09.899
these new slang words, where they're
coming from, because these are also

00:17:09.899 --> 00:17:11.490
conduits of culture, like I said earlier.

00:17:11.699 --> 00:17:14.849
We know like in the same way that
like came from Valley girl English,

00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.209
there's like conduits of popularity,
what we perceive as cool or

00:17:18.209 --> 00:17:19.619
prestigious, and we borrow from that.

00:17:19.829 --> 00:17:22.800
It's good to be aware of these things
so we can communicate more effectively

00:17:22.979 --> 00:17:25.679
and so that we can be more aware of
our own word choice and perhaps the

00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:26.895
implications of what words we're using.

00:17:27.584 --> 00:17:29.925
Matt Abrahams: I wanna put an
exclamation point after this notion

00:17:29.925 --> 00:17:34.185
of every channel through which you
communicate, we have to be mindful

00:17:34.185 --> 00:17:37.304
and think through the language that we
use to communicate for that channel.

00:17:37.304 --> 00:17:39.885
A lot of us just create one message
and then put it out in lots of

00:17:39.885 --> 00:17:43.425
different channels, and we might be
missing an opportunity to optimize.

00:17:43.784 --> 00:17:46.574
And we might be doing ourselves a
disservice because in essence, we're

00:17:46.574 --> 00:17:49.395
not communicating in the way that we
should, and the algorithm is of one

00:17:49.395 --> 00:17:50.895
big channel we need to be considering.

00:17:51.135 --> 00:17:52.215
So I'm a grammarian.

00:17:52.574 --> 00:17:53.804
I think grammar is important.

00:17:54.044 --> 00:17:55.605
I will defend the Oxford comma.

00:17:55.860 --> 00:17:57.780
I'm curious what you think about grammar.

00:17:58.169 --> 00:17:59.399
How does grammar play out?

00:17:59.399 --> 00:18:02.850
I know in social media people don't
use grammar, and in fact, when I text

00:18:02.850 --> 00:18:06.419
younger people and I put punctuation
in, it actually conveys meaning

00:18:06.419 --> 00:18:08.070
that I'm not intending it to convey.

00:18:08.310 --> 00:18:09.419
What are your thoughts about grammar?

00:18:09.959 --> 00:18:12.240
Adam Aleksic: Grammar is a set
of rules or expectations about

00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:13.290
how language should be used.

00:18:13.515 --> 00:18:16.035
This differs on context, and this
is where I might push back on you.

00:18:16.035 --> 00:18:18.975
I agree grammar exists and I
agree that when I'm writing my

00:18:18.975 --> 00:18:22.155
book, I should use the standard
grammatical conventions of English.

00:18:22.155 --> 00:18:24.585
I am an Oxford comma
enjoyer in that context.

00:18:24.915 --> 00:18:29.565
If I'm texting my friend or my roommate
or something like that, it doesn't matter.

00:18:29.565 --> 00:18:32.955
In fact, it would be weird if I used
a period when I texted my friend,

00:18:32.955 --> 00:18:36.764
because here's the thing about texts
and how boomers tend to, no offense,

00:18:36.764 --> 00:18:39.735
hey, they tend to use more periods
in their text than younger people.

00:18:40.095 --> 00:18:43.155
The act of sending a text
itself is already a signal

00:18:43.155 --> 00:18:44.385
that the sentence is completed.

00:18:44.475 --> 00:18:46.995
So going out of your way to
include an extra period is

00:18:46.995 --> 00:18:48.855
actually saying something extra.

00:18:49.125 --> 00:18:51.345
You have your sentence and then you
have this period at the end of it

00:18:51.345 --> 00:18:53.955
that you didn't need to send because
the message as a whole already

00:18:53.955 --> 00:18:55.754
communicated that this message ended.

00:18:55.995 --> 00:18:58.395
So now we as younger people
are asking ourselves, why

00:18:58.395 --> 00:18:59.415
did this person add a period?

00:18:59.475 --> 00:19:00.915
And we think that's passive aggressive.

00:19:00.915 --> 00:19:02.895
And so there's this idea of
a passive aggressive period.

00:19:03.135 --> 00:19:05.835
Matt Abrahams: You have
convinced me not to put a period.

00:19:05.895 --> 00:19:07.995
While not a boomer, I do appreciate that.

00:19:08.425 --> 00:19:12.945
I appreciate that grammar, syntax is
important and it, it varies by channel.

00:19:13.330 --> 00:19:15.520
Adam Aleksic: If anything, that's
what I mean when I say that every

00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:17.080
medium really affects the message.

00:19:17.350 --> 00:19:20.080
It's good to be aware of standard
grammar for sure, because there's

00:19:20.080 --> 00:19:22.210
a lot of context in which that
is the way you professionally

00:19:22.210 --> 00:19:23.230
communicate with other people.

00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:26.500
But it's also good to be aware of
the informal grammars and being

00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:28.780
aware of all these grammars at
once allows us to communicate

00:19:28.780 --> 00:19:29.770
better across different medium.

00:19:30.100 --> 00:19:30.250
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

00:19:30.310 --> 00:19:32.920
But it puts the onus on us to
actually take the time to think

00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:33.790
about that and learn that.

00:19:33.790 --> 00:19:34.510
Absolutely.

00:19:35.745 --> 00:19:38.535
So Adam, before we end, I like to
ask three questions of everyone.

00:19:38.655 --> 00:19:40.875
One I create just for you
and the other two I've been

00:19:40.875 --> 00:19:42.285
asking across all the episodes.

00:19:42.285 --> 00:19:42.915
Are you ready for that?

00:19:43.125 --> 00:19:43.515
Adam Aleksic: Let's do it.

00:19:43.785 --> 00:19:47.775
Matt Abrahams: So I would like, as a
very bright young linguist, for you to

00:19:47.775 --> 00:19:52.035
give a commentary on the name of this
podcast because it is grammatically

00:19:52.035 --> 00:19:55.185
incorrect, Think Fast Talk Smart.

00:19:55.515 --> 00:19:58.755
It should not be
grammatically worded that way.

00:19:58.935 --> 00:20:00.495
Is this a good thing?

00:20:00.495 --> 00:20:01.515
Is this a bad thing?

00:20:01.515 --> 00:20:02.295
What do you think?

00:20:02.535 --> 00:20:06.014
Adam Aleksic: It's funny because,
again, grammar is subjective here.

00:20:06.014 --> 00:20:10.875
We've had an increasing informal
dropping of L Y suffixes, the turning of

00:20:10.875 --> 00:20:13.335
adverbs into adjectives, and vice versa.

00:20:13.514 --> 00:20:14.655
We've had this mixture.

00:20:15.075 --> 00:20:19.560
And it's not grammatically incorrect
if you're trying to connote this

00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:21.870
hustle vibe or like, let's get going.

00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:22.290
Yeah.

00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:26.730
I think the name of the podcast works
for the feel you're trying to create.

00:20:26.790 --> 00:20:29.100
If you think smarter, you know,

00:20:29.100 --> 00:20:30.300
Matt Abrahams: Smartly or whatever.

00:20:30.300 --> 00:20:30.570
Yeah.

00:20:30.575 --> 00:20:32.460
Adam Aleksic: It, it
doesn't have the same vibe.

00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:34.290
And different ways of
speaking, have different vibes.

00:20:34.320 --> 00:20:35.365
So I think you're totally fine.

00:20:35.795 --> 00:20:37.565
And it's grammatically correct
for what you're trying to do.

00:20:37.865 --> 00:20:38.435
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:20:38.555 --> 00:20:43.025
The high school English teacher that
I had, who is upset about the way we

00:20:43.025 --> 00:20:46.955
named the podcast, I'm gonna send this
clip to him so he can understand it.

00:20:46.955 --> 00:20:50.345
But again, I think your answer shows
that the language we use, the words

00:20:50.345 --> 00:20:52.115
we use, convey more than just meaning.

00:20:52.115 --> 00:20:54.995
They convey a feeling, a
sense, a vibe, as you said.

00:20:55.505 --> 00:20:59.315
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:21:00.005 --> 00:21:02.465
Adam Aleksic: I interview a lot of
different educational creators in the

00:21:02.465 --> 00:21:08.295
book, and I think these people are in
a unique position, because you have

00:21:08.295 --> 00:21:11.265
this desire to communicate something
and let people know more about this

00:21:11.265 --> 00:21:13.635
topic, but at the same time, we're
heavily constrained by this medium.

00:21:13.635 --> 00:21:16.725
You've always needed
attention to educate people.

00:21:16.725 --> 00:21:19.815
A teacher still needs to get her
students' attention because that's

00:21:19.815 --> 00:21:21.315
how you like hold the floor, right?

00:21:21.315 --> 00:21:23.535
Otherwise, the students
will be distracted.

00:21:24.075 --> 00:21:27.975
However, educational content creators
are faced with that unique sort of

00:21:27.975 --> 00:21:32.115
need to create edutainment, and I'm
very impressed with, especially, the

00:21:32.115 --> 00:21:35.095
early people who had to figure out
this space, the Green Brothers, Vsauce.

00:21:35.115 --> 00:21:37.065
I think they've done
incredible work in that regard.

00:21:37.425 --> 00:21:39.555
Matt Abrahams: This ability
to get attention and sustain

00:21:39.555 --> 00:21:43.155
attention, I define engagement as
sustained attention, is critical.

00:21:43.305 --> 00:21:45.735
Adam Aleksic: To me, engagement is
a dirty word just because it's like

00:21:45.735 --> 00:21:48.315
algorithmic social media kind of a
word, but you're absolutely right.

00:21:48.555 --> 00:21:50.835
Matt Abrahams: Long before these
algorithms existed, I've been teaching

00:21:50.835 --> 00:21:53.534
this notion of engagement and I'm
happy to use a synonym, but there's

00:21:53.534 --> 00:21:56.445
a need to not only get attention,
but to keep that attention and

00:21:56.445 --> 00:21:58.274
whatever we call that is important.

00:21:58.620 --> 00:21:59.700
Final question for you.

00:21:59.909 --> 00:22:04.139
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:22:04.379 --> 00:22:06.720
Adam Aleksic: I'm a little biased
by what, everything I've just said.

00:22:07.050 --> 00:22:10.169
The first ingredient is just
being aware, knowing what the

00:22:10.169 --> 00:22:11.820
rules are for each social setting.

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.910
Knowing what the background
is of the words you're using.

00:22:15.090 --> 00:22:18.150
Being aware is just
step one always for me.

00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:21.420
Step two is know the exact
setting that you're in.

00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:23.550
Now you know how these words
are used across settings.

00:22:23.790 --> 00:22:26.460
Now you know what setting
you're in, and then communicate

00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:27.780
conscientiously based on that.

00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:30.030
Step three, continue
observing, become more aware.

00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:31.710
It's just a cycle.

00:22:31.710 --> 00:22:34.170
It's, we're performing our own
awareness into existence as well.

00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:38.360
Matt Abrahams: So really it boils down
to being open and aware, to seeing

00:22:38.360 --> 00:22:41.600
what's going on, and then make conscious
choices to the language you use.

00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:44.180
Adam Aleksic: And then you can sort of
reflexively respond to what's going on.

00:22:44.270 --> 00:22:46.310
Continuously, I think reevaluating
our state in the world,

00:22:46.310 --> 00:22:48.260
because here's the thing about
language, it's always changing.

00:22:48.470 --> 00:22:52.070
The mediums are also always changing,
and unless, we can become complacent,

00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:53.690
it's so easy to become complacent.

00:22:54.110 --> 00:22:55.760
You're like, oh, I figured
out how language works.

00:22:55.760 --> 00:22:56.570
This works great.

00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:57.930
And then we have a new medium.

00:22:57.950 --> 00:22:58.820
We have algorithms now.

00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:01.850
We have new words emerging,
and you're no longer aware.

00:23:02.169 --> 00:23:03.310
And now you're outta date.

00:23:03.310 --> 00:23:05.050
You're using periods
in your text messages.

00:23:05.770 --> 00:23:07.060
Matt Abrahams: I told you
I'm gonna stop doing that.

00:23:07.330 --> 00:23:10.719
This idea of awareness allows you
to be agile and allows you to adjust

00:23:10.719 --> 00:23:12.010
and adapt, and I appreciate that.

00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:13.659
Adam, this has been fantastic.

00:23:13.659 --> 00:23:15.459
I knew it was gonna be a
really interesting journey.

00:23:15.459 --> 00:23:20.165
You helped us understand that it is
important to think about our audience.

00:23:20.195 --> 00:23:22.534
The algorithm is one of those audiences.

00:23:22.804 --> 00:23:27.905
This notion that language is a conduit
for culture and meaning is very critical.

00:23:28.054 --> 00:23:31.735
I appreciate your time and best
of luck on your book, Algospeak.

00:23:32.014 --> 00:23:32.314
Adam Aleksic: Thank you.

00:23:32.314 --> 00:23:33.125
It's so fun talking to you.

00:23:35.614 --> 00:23:37.534
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
listening to another episode of

00:23:37.534 --> 00:23:39.905
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:23:40.084 --> 00:23:43.445
To learn more about language
and words, tune into episode

00:23:43.445 --> 00:23:45.114
91 with Valerie Fridland.

00:23:45.784 --> 00:23:51.195
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:23:51.435 --> 00:23:53.085
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:23:53.415 --> 00:23:55.485
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:23:55.905 --> 00:23:59.205
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:59.325 --> 00:24:01.605
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

00:24:01.845 --> 00:24:04.385
Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.

00:24:04.545 --> 00:24:08.805
And check out fastersmarter.io for
deep dive videos, English language

00:24:08.805 --> 00:24:11.025
learning content, and our newsletters.

00:24:11.235 --> 00:24:14.895
Please consider our premium offering
for extended Deep Thinks episodes,

00:24:15.165 --> 00:24:21.120
Ask Matt Anythings, and much
more at fastersmarter.io/premium.